Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning 31-tet guitar

Greetings comrades,

I have finally found someone willing to refret my acoustic guitar to
something else. Since I really like diatonic harmony, but also really
like 7-limit and 11-limit and 13-limit stuff too, I've decided 31-tet
is the way to go. Oh happy day.

Now I need to figure out how to optimize this so as to get the best
results. Since in 31-tet the 3/2 and 11/4 and 9/7 are all
teeth-grindingly irritatingly flat, perhaps a nice solution would be
to stretch the octaves by a few cents to mitigate this. This would
make 13/8 even more out of tune, but I don't care. I'm not set on
doing this, but I want to try first to see how it sounds (in Scala or
something).

So which one out of the zillion methods for optimizing an equal
temperament is the best way to go here? Do I use TOP? Or something
else?

-Mike

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

Also, from working in Scala, all of the TOP and TOP-RMS octaves that
it's spitting out are on the order of 1200.502 cents at the lowest
(13-limit TOP-RMS) and 1201.637 cents at the highest (3-limit TOP).
The 5-, 7-, and 11-limit TOP octaves are all the same at 1201.468
cents, and the 5-, 7-, and 11-limit TOP-RMS octaves are all loosely
centered around 1201 cents.

Is there a point, then, to doing this instead of just making the
octaves pure? I can't see any point to it.

-Mike

On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 12:03 PM, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> Greetings comrades,
>
> I have finally found someone willing to refret my acoustic guitar to
> something else. Since I really like diatonic harmony, but also really
> like 7-limit and 11-limit and 13-limit stuff too, I've decided 31-tet
> is the way to go. Oh happy day.
>
> Now I need to figure out how to optimize this so as to get the best
> results. Since in 31-tet the 3/2 and 11/4 and 9/7 are all
> teeth-grindingly irritatingly flat, perhaps a nice solution would be
> to stretch the octaves by a few cents to mitigate this. This would
> make 13/8 even more out of tune, but I don't care. I'm not set on
> doing this, but I want to try first to see how it sounds (in Scala or
> something).
>
> So which one out of the zillion methods for optimizing an equal
> temperament is the best way to go here? Do I use TOP? Or something
> else?
>
> -Mike
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

You know what....
I've been theorizing how to make my own guitar micro-tonal IE rip off the frets and make my own special frets.

And I've been thinking the idea of having beads (with a lock on the top half of the bead to keep it in a set position and a slippery fabric (like the type they put on sliders you put under table legs to prevent scratching on wooden floors) on the bottom. That would allows the beads to act as frets to slide vertically for bends could or simply be slid along the strings (with the lock unlocked) to switch tunings.
This way I figure you could, in theory, slide as many of these beads on the string as you want and make them "lock" in arbitrary positions to form "move-able frets".

That way when you picked a key for your song, you could, say,
slide the
beads to purify the 5ths on the chords you use as "resolve points" in
that song...or even slide the beads while you are playing.

>"Since in 31-tet the 3/2 and 11/4 and 9/7 are all
teeth-grindingly irritatingly flat, perhaps a nice solution would be
to stretch the octaves by a few cents to mitigate this."
Right, assuming you're only working with 3 octaves or so (and don't mind the accumulating error as you go across more octaves) or don't mind the sound of a stretched octave that would work as well.

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

As someone who used to play a 31-tone guitar, let me tell you: the fifth won't bother you, especially on acoustic guitar. Even on my electric, with tons of distortion, power chords were *fine*, provided I didn't hold them for a long time. The 11/4 and 9/7...yeah, they're rough in 31. Ditto the 7/6. You can't have your cake and eat it too. But don't let the fifths worry you. Your fingers might even compensate them automatically, without you realizing it. When applying a temperament to a guitar, you gotta remember that every interval is really in a range of ±3¢ or so, maybe more if your intonation is set a little off or your action is high.

-Igs

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> Greetings comrades,
>
> I have finally found someone willing to refret my acoustic guitar to
> something else. Since I really like diatonic harmony, but also really
> like 7-limit and 11-limit and 13-limit stuff too, I've decided 31-tet
> is the way to go. Oh happy day.
>
> Now I need to figure out how to optimize this so as to get the best
> results. Since in 31-tet the 3/2 and 11/4 and 9/7 are all
> teeth-grindingly irritatingly flat, perhaps a nice solution would be
> to stretch the octaves by a few cents to mitigate this. This would
> make 13/8 even more out of tune, but I don't care. I'm not set on
> doing this, but I want to try first to see how it sounds (in Scala or
> something).
>
> So which one out of the zillion methods for optimizing an equal
> temperament is the best way to go here? Do I use TOP? Or something
> else?
>
> -Mike
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Mario Pizarro <piagui@...>

Carl, I play the guitar: If the guitar strings are about 65 centimeters lenght and the first string is tuned to about 330 Hz, two contiguous frets would be distanced by less than 0.7 centimeters so nobody could play it.

I suspect that a programmed auxiliary equipment expands to 31 tones the standard 12 of the 12 TET guitar and still I donï¿½t know how this equipment could be controlled when playing unless two guitar players after practicing 12 years do the job. Regards, Mario Pizarro.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Lumma" <carl@...>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 2:43 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: 31-tet guitar

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>>
>> As someone who used to play a 31-tone guitar,
>
> I don't want to hear from anyone like that, ever. ;) What made
> you stop? -Carl
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
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🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:

> I don't want to hear from anyone like that, ever. ;) What made
> you stop? -Carl

One, it was an inconsitently-done refret, so several keys intonated improperly. This was the most important problem. Two, I found 31 to be a bit overwhelming, because there are so many temperaments that intersect. This meant constantly re-mapping the fretboard in my head, and often varying the open-string tunings drastically. Three, I wasn't satisfied with the alternate MOS scales available in 31; 22-EDO won me over because of its septimal diatonic scale and the Pajara/Decatonic scales (and its compatibility with Orwell temperament, which was my favorite non-diatonic MOS in 31 at the time), and that killed my interest in 31-EDO.

Now, of course, I've realized that I like Father and Mohajira, both of which 31 does pretty well, so if I had a decent 31-EDO guitar in my possession, I might pick it up again. However, that guitar has since been converted to 20-EDO by Ron Sword, and I've decided that my limit on the fretboard is 24 or fewer notes per octave (more notes may not be "unmanageable", but definitely can be significantly more difficult, which discourages me from actually picking the guitar up and playing it). So I don't expect to return to 31-EDO.

-Igs

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> You know what....
> I've been theorizing how to make my own guitar micro-tonal IE rip off the frets and make my own special frets.
>
> And I've been thinking the idea of having beads (with a lock on the top half of the bead to keep it in a set position and a slippery fabric (like the type they put on sliders you put under table legs to prevent scratching on wooden floors) on the bottom. That would allows the beads to act as frets to slide vertically for bends could or simply be slid along the strings (with the lock unlocked) to switch tunings.
> This way I figure you could, in theory, slide as many of these beads on the string as you want and make them "lock" in arbitrary positions to form "move-able frets".

I'm having trouble picturing this, but people have done someting
similar with heavy duty fishing wire. You cut notches in the
fingerboard binding at the fret points and wrap the wire around the
neck. If you're clever you can cover the binding in masking tape or
something and just cut notches in that instead of the binding
directly. I think I read somewhere that people have done this with zip
ties too, although those would be some heavy duty frets...

> That way when you picked a key for your song, you could, say, slide the beads to purify the 5ths on the chords you use as "resolve points" in that song...or even slide the beads while you are playing.
>
> >"Since in 31-tet the 3/2 and 11/4 and 9/7 are all
> teeth-grindingly irritatingly flat, perhaps a nice solution would be
> to stretch the octaves by a few cents to mitigate this."
> Right, assuming you're only working with 3 octaves or so (and don't mind the accumulating error as you go across more octaves) or don't mind the sound of a stretched octave that would work as well.

Well, I'm screwing around now to see how it'll work. A 1203 cent
octave brings the fifths to 699 cents (whee!), the major thirds to 388
cents (okay!), 9/7 to 427 cents (about the same!), 11/8 to 543 cents
(not much different!), 7/4 to 970 cents (we're still good!)

So the best thing that a 1203 cent octave fixes is the fifth (and
hence a major 9th). I do really much like the sound of it though, it's
extremely "bright" and brings some 5-limit "color" back to the tuning.
1/4-comma meantone is pretty chill, very subdued in character.
Stretching the octaves seems to invigorate it a bit.

-Mike

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:48 PM, cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
>
> As someone who used to play a 31-tone guitar, let me tell you: the fifth won't bother you, especially on acoustic guitar. Even on my electric, with tons of distortion, power chords were *fine*, provided I didn't hold them for a long time. The 11/4 and 9/7...yeah, they're rough in 31. Ditto the 7/6. You can't have your cake and eat it too. But don't let the fifths worry you. Your fingers might even compensate them automatically, without you realizing it. When applying a temperament to a guitar, you gotta remember that every interval is really in a range of ±3¢ or so, maybe more if your intonation is set a little off or your action is high.
>
> -Igs

Did you find 7/6 to really be that bad? It's more in tune than 3/2 is, isn't it?

Another thing I've been thinking of is the fact that all of these
intervals usually sound a lot better when they're played as part of
chords. The same applies to 12-tet. The 12-tet tritone, by itself,
sounds like... nothing. But once you put it in as part of a larger
chord structure, it can take on a bunch of different meanings. So I
think it'll sound better once I start messing around that way.

As for the 9/7... Guess I won't be writing stuff in supermajor anytime soon.

-Mike

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> Did you find 7/6 to really be that bad? It's more in tune than 3/2 is, isn't it?

Oh, my bad...I was confusing it with the 7/6 in 22. Yes, the 7/6 in 31-tET is pretty acceptable.

> Another thing I've been thinking of is the fact that all of these
> intervals usually sound a lot better when they're played as part of
> chords. The same applies to 12-tet. The 12-tet tritone, by itself,
> sounds like... nothing. But once you put it in as part of a larger
> chord structure, it can take on a bunch of different meanings. So I
> think it'll sound better once I start messing around that way.

This is VERRRRRRRRRY true. EXTREMELY. Yes yes yes. This allows the poor 11/4 and 9/4 to still serve their harmonic functions.

-Igs

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Mario Pizarro <piagui@...>

Carl,

If I would be two years younger, I would design and construct an electronic box containing the following electronic functions for a 24 tone octave:

1) Each of the 19 inputs receives the first string ground signal plus the open string signal that comes out from a sensor tuned to 330 Hz. When the pluged string touches the fret a ground signal is sent to the box.

2) 24 similar amplifiers, 5 for the second string (B, C, C#, D, Eb); 4 for the third, G, Ab, A, Bb etc. Total number of lines : 20 + 24 = 44 input lines.

3) 20 "double" oscillators for the first string. If the 5th fret is used, oscillator channel "a" emits 440 Hz; one single line X that comes from the guitar whenever the guitar player make contact this line X to ground, increases the output frequency to 440 + f1. I named the X line because HOW the deuce the guitar player can play at the same time the guitar and a nonexistent third hand send a signal to line X. I see that I need to do a reengineering job that could be done in a few years. Regards. Mario

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Lumma" <carl@...>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 4:25 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: 31-tet guitar

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mario Pizarro" <piagui@...> wrote:
>>
>> Carl, I play the guitar: If the guitar strings are about
>> 65 centimeters lenght and the first string is tuned to about
>> 330 Hz, two contiguous frets would be distanced by less than
>> 0.7 centimeters so nobody could play it.
>
> Hi Mario,
>
> People can and do play 31-ET guitar with no trouble. I've
> got a 22-ET guitar here and fret spacing isn't a problem at all.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
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>
>
>
>
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🔗Mario Pizarro <piagui@...>

Carl,
Re: The 31 tet guitar. Since at one side of any fret there is an unuseful area because to get a neat sound the finger must press sufficientky near to the fret, an interesting prototype could be constructed if all the frets are retired from the neck.

By installing 31 metal sensors for the first string whose positions comply with the scale as well as six sensors for the second, five for the third and six for the fourth, fifth, sixth strings, the remaining hardware would comprise the installation of a colored code multipair cable into the neck. The wires can generate the needed tone frequencies by means of tuned oscillators and using the standard technology with chips, integrated circuits. etc. etc

I think the advantage of this idea is that the unuseful diapason areas which are present in fretted guitars are 100 % availed for the plate sensors spacing. Some body has probably tried to do it, if not, somebody must do it.

Regards,
Mario
Lima, June 04

----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Lumma" <carl@...>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 4:25 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: 31-tet guitar

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🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

No offense Mario. May I suggest that if you are going to go through all of
that trouble why not just buy a guitar => midi converter + synthesizer like
I use?

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=592

I can certainly play in 31 edo.

Chris

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Mario Pizarro <piagui@...> wrote:

>
>
> Carl,
> Re: The 31 tet guitar. Since at one side of any fret there is an unuseful
> area because to get a neat sound the finger must press sufficientky near to
>
> the fret, an interesting prototype could be constructed if all the frets
> are
> retired from the neck.
>
> By installing 31 metal sensors for the first string whose positions comply
> with the scale as well as six sensors for the second, five for the third
> and
> six for the fourth, fifth, sixth strings, the remaining hardware would
> comprise the installation of a colored code multipair cable into the neck.
> The wires can generate the needed tone frequencies by means of tuned
> oscillators and using the standard technology with chips, integrated
> circuits. etc. etc
>
> I think the advantage of this idea is that the unuseful diapason areas
> which
> are present in fretted guitars are 100 % availed for the plate sensors
> spacing. Some body has probably tried to do it, if not, somebody must do
> it.
>
> Regards,
> Mario
> Lima, June 04
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl Lumma" <carl@... <carl%40lumma.org>>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 4:25 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: 31-tet guitar
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, "Mario
> Pizarro" <piagui@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Carl, I play the guitar: If the guitar strings are about
> >> 65 centimeters lenght and the first string is tuned to about
> >> 330 Hz, two contiguous frets would be distanced by less than
> >> 0.7 centimeters so nobody could play it.
> >
> > Hi Mario,
> >
> > People can and do play 31-ET guitar with no trouble. I've
> > got a 22-ET guitar here and fret spacing isn't a problem at all.
> >
> > -Carl
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
>
> >
> > You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> > of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
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> join the tuning group.
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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🔗Mario Pizarro <piagui@...>

Chris,

You know that from about the 15th fret, five tone chords normally fail no matter how beautiful is your guitar. It is a pity having about five half tones x 6 = 30 tones out of chord expressions.
Assuming that the fretted diapason is about 40 cm. lenght you could distribute 31 sensors at an equally spacing of 40/30 = 1.75 cm. The question is with or without strings.

Nice weekend

Mario
Lima, June 04

----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Vaisvil
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: 31-tet guitar

No offense Mario. May I suggest that if you are going to go through all of that trouble why not just buy a guitar => midi converter + synthesizer like I use?

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=592

I can certainly play in 31 edo.

Chris

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Mario Pizarro <piagui@...> wrote:

Carl,
Re: The 31 tet guitar. Since at one side of any fret there is an unuseful
area because to get a neat sound the finger must press sufficientky near to
the fret, an interesting prototype could be constructed if all the frets are
retired from the neck.

By installing 31 metal sensors for the first string whose positions comply
with the scale as well as six sensors for the second, five for the third and
six for the fourth, fifth, sixth strings, the remaining hardware would
comprise the installation of a colored code multipair cable into the neck.
The wires can generate the needed tone frequencies by means of tuned
oscillators and using the standard technology with chips, integrated
circuits. etc. etc

I think the advantage of this idea is that the unuseful diapason areas which
are present in fretted guitars are 100 % availed for the plate sensors
spacing. Some body has probably tried to do it, if not, somebody must do it.

Regards,
Mario
Lima, June 04

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <carl@...>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 4:25 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: 31-tet guitar

> ------------------------------------

>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
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>
>
>
>
> __________ Información de ESET NOD32 Antivirus, versión de la base de
> firmas de virus 5167 (20100602) __________
>
> ESET NOD32 Antivirus ha comprobado este mensaje.
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🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Hi Mario

With my Roland GR-20 my guitar frets do not change. Only the tuning does.

This gives an outline as to how it works.

http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=139

Have a good weekend too!

Chris

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Mario Pizarro <piagui@...> wrote:

>
>
> Chris,
>
> You know that from about the 15th fret, five tone chords normally fail no
> matter how beautiful is your guitar. It is a pity having about five half
> tones x 6 = 30 tones out of chord expressions.
> Assuming that the fretted diapason is about 40 cm. lenght you could
> distribute 31 sensors at an equally spacing of 40/30 = 1.75 cm. The question
> is with or without strings.
>
> Nice weekend
>
> Mario
> Lima, June 04
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
> *To:* tuning@yahoogroups.com
> *Sent:* Friday, June 04, 2010 4:11 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [tuning] Re: 31-tet guitar
>
> No offense Mario. May I suggest that if you are going to go through all of
> that trouble why not just buy a guitar => midi converter + synthesizer like
> I use?
>
> http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=592
>
> I can certainly play in 31 edo.
>
> Chris
>
> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Mario Pizarro <piagui@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Carl,
>> Re: The 31 tet guitar. Since at one side of any fret there is an unuseful
>> area because to get a neat sound the finger must press sufficientky near
>> to
>> the fret, an interesting prototype could be constructed if all the frets
>> are
>> retired from the neck.
>>
>> By installing 31 metal sensors for the first string whose positions comply
>>
>> with the scale as well as six sensors for the second, five for the third
>> and
>> six for the fourth, fifth, sixth strings, the remaining hardware would
>> comprise the installation of a colored code multipair cable into the neck.
>>
>> The wires can generate the needed tone frequencies by means of tuned
>> oscillators and using the standard technology with chips, integrated
>> circuits. etc. etc
>>
>> I think the advantage of this idea is that the unuseful diapason areas
>> which
>> are present in fretted guitars are 100 % availed for the plate sensors
>> spacing. Some body has probably tried to do it, if not, somebody must do
>> it.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mario
>> Lima, June 04
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Carl Lumma" <carl@lumma.org <carl%40lumma.org>>
>> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 4:25 PM
>> Subject: [tuning] Re: 31-tet guitar
>>
>> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, "Mario
>> Pizarro" <piagui@...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Carl, I play the guitar: If the guitar strings are about
>> >> 65 centimeters lenght and the first string is tuned to about
>> >> 330 Hz, two contiguous frets would be distanced by less than
>> >> 0.7 centimeters so nobody could play it.
>> >
>> > Hi Mario,
>> >
>> > People can and do play 31-ET guitar with no trouble. I've
>> > got a 22-ET guitar here and fret spacing isn't a problem at all.
>> >
>> > -Carl
>> >
>> >
>> >
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31-tet guitar

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Mario Pizarro <piagui@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Mario Pizarro <piagui@...>

🔗Mario Pizarro <piagui@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Mario Pizarro <piagui@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>