Persian tar/sehtar tuning

>...the tuning given by Dariush Anooshfar in the Scala scale archives
>(1/1 256/243 27/25 9/8 32/27 243/200 81/64 4/3 25/18 36/25 3/2
128/81 >81/50 27/16 16/9 729/400 243/128 2/1)...
> Farhat goes on to give a tuning of steps (in cents): 90 45 70 90 45
> 70 90 65 65 70 90 45 70 90 45 70 90, which I think is basically the
> same as Dariush Anooshfar's tuning (with intervals rounded to the
> nearest five cents).

Thanks. I did intend the 31-tET approximation for Arabic, not Persian,
scales, so the large discrepancies are to be expected. Mohammed
Gharib says, on his web page, that Persian tuning could be considered
a subset of 43-tET, so perhaps we should look at that. In any case,
thanks for the info above, that really helps. I have serious qualms
about Anooshfar's ratios, though: they seem

Paul!
I would assume rthis is a misprint of 53 ET

Paul Erlich wrote:

> Mohammed
> Gharib says, on his web page, that Persian tuning could be considered
> a subset of 43-tET, so perhaps we should look at that.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

[Paul Erlich, TD 551.13]
>Thanks. I did intend the 31-tET approximation for Arabic, not Persian,
>scales, so the large discrepancies are to be expected.

OK. Point noted. This is what I get for asking a question not directly
related to your original post. :-)

>Mohammed Gharib says, on his web page, that Persian tuning could be
>considered a subset of 43-tET, so perhaps we should look at that.

Perhaps, but an ~698 cent G above C is still going to make me feel like
I need to tune my sehtar strings when I play the lower two courses as
drone strings. :-)

Does Dr. Gharib give a proposed *subset* of 43-tET anywhere? I've only
seen the page where he proposes 43-tET in general.

>In any case, thanks for the info above, that really helps.

You are welcome, thanks for getting me thinking about meantone tunings
for Persian music. :-)

>I have serious qualms about Anooshfar's ratios, though: they seem

It looks like you got cut off, what are your qualms?

In semi-anticipation of your response, do you know of a better non-ET
tuning for tar/sehtar?

For that matter, have you thought about other ETs in which the fifth
isn't so far off, such as 53-tET (as Kraig Grady pointed out) at least
for Arabic music, if not Persian?

[Kraig Grady, TD 551.17]:
>Paul!
>I would assume this is a misprint of 53 ET

Nope, Dr. Gharib clearly says:

To achieve a well-tempered scale for all Iranian music, one may
divide an octave into 43 equal "pelleh".

Every pelleh would be equal to 7 savars. ~ 27.9 cents.

He even goes on to say:

A set of 86 would be the exact solution.

You can read the original at:

http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/~moh/music/43-peleh.html

Dr. Gharib's home page is:

http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/~moh/gharib.html

Paul, have you (or anyone else) looked at the fret measurements at:

http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/~moh/music/setar/harmonic_setar
?

These measurements look completely and totally off to me, but I wanted
to get a second opinion before writing to him in case I'm missing
something obvious. (I'm not sure what that could possibly be, but I'm
sure it'd be obvious once someone pointed it out to me.) :-)

Cheers,
Christopher

Chris!
Yes I stand corrected but this is his personal suggestion for a
temperment, not one in practice even by himself.

"Christopher J. Chapman" wrote:

>
>
> [Kraig Grady, TD 551.17]:
> >Paul!
> >I would assume this is a misprint of 53 ET
>
> Nope, Dr. Gharib clearly says:
>
> To achieve a well-tempered scale for all Iranian music, one may
> divide an octave into 43 equal "pelleh".
>
> Every pelleh would be equal to 7 savars. ~ 27.9 cents.
>
> He even goes on to say:
>
> A set of 86 would be the exact solution.
>
> You can read the original at:
>
> http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/~moh/music/43-peleh.html
>
> Dr. Gharib's home page is:
>
> http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/~moh/gharib.html
>
> Paul, have you (or anyone else) looked at the fret measurements at:
>
> http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/~moh/music/setar/harmonic_setar
> ?
>
> These measurements look completely and totally off to me, but I wanted
> to get a second opinion before writing to him in case I'm missing
> something obvious. (I'm not sure what that could possibly be, but I'm
> sure it'd be obvious once someone pointed it out to me.) :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Christopher

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

>Does Dr. Gharib give a proposed *subset* of 43-tET anywhere? I've only
>seen the page where he proposes 43-tET in general.

This is the e-mail he sent me in response to this question:

Hi there,

since I do not have time to respond to this question in detail,
I have to refer you to my page here
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~moh/midifiles/tuning_info/tuning.chart.txt
http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/~moh/music/setar/harmonic_setar
a few of my articles on the web and this response to another person.

moh
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here's a quick review of the scales used in persian music.
There is a few articles on these scales, but my values
are based on my own experiments and comparison
with other data. It would be ideal to be able to create user-
defined scales. A lot of the scales are similar in Arabic and
Armenian music. tiny interval rubber banding effects (variations)
create the touch or the accent of a specific nation.

In Persian music whole tones are slightly larger that 200
cents, about 210 cents, closer to major 2nd, a ratio of 9/8.

half-tones are flatter/smaller, about 90 cents.

There is an extra interval of 140 cents or a freq ratio
of 13/12. say between E and Fsori (F+40cents)
or between G and Ak( Akoron =A-60cents)

main scales:==========

chahargah in C, also known as Le Gamme Espannol:
C D-60cents E-10 F G A-60cents B C
(I use E-10 instead of E to get closer to diatonic E)

Shoor in E:
C D E F+40cents G A B C
(this is the same scale for Bayat-e Tork in G; Nava, Abu Atta and Afshary
in
A and dashty in B)

Segah in D, some call it Segah in Fsori=F+40cents for although the
scales bottom is D, the melodies fly around Fsori:
C D E F+40cents G A B-60 C

Esfehan or the Persian Minor in C:
C D+10 Eb-10 F G A-60 Bnatural C

Mokhalef in C
G A-60cents B-60cents C D+10 Eb-10
It may look like that the interval between B-60 and C is
160 cents, but on a setar, since the whole tone interval from A-60 to B- 60
is 210 cents or more, we have 140,210,140 intervals between
G, A and B with some rubberband effect (every thing streching) to fill
spaces.
In practice, using chromatic values of G, A, B, etc on a sound module
and modifying them as above sounds pretty OK.

Mohammad

----------------------------------
Dr. Mohammad Gharib
moh@caltech.edu
(626) 395-4759
http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/~moh
Graduate Aeronautical Laboratories
California Institute of Technology
----------------------------------

>For that matter, have you thought about other ETs in which the fifth
>isn't so far off, such as 53-tET (as Kraig Grady pointed out) at least
>for Arabic music, if not Persian?

Turkish music is (theoretically) based on 53-tET or 53-tone Pythagorean
(almost identical), and they have their own versions of Arabic scales which
one may consider "close enough". For what it's worth, 53-tET does give an
excellent rendition of Farhat's reported Persian fretting.

>These measurements look completely and totally off to me, but I wanted
>to get a second opinion before writing to him in case I'm missing
>something obvious. (I'm not sure what that could possibly be, but I'm
>sure it'd be obvious once someone pointed it out to me.) :-)

Let's go over this before contacting Gharib.