@Michael, last post for tonight...

Ok, bottom line from me: I don't think microtonal popular music will ever arrive with any significant following. Not going to happen, and I don't think there are any ways for one to really push the issue. Frankly, I'd love to know that you were planning to stop posting for a month and then come back with three new songs recorded, ready for us to hear the direction YOU think microtonality could be made popular.

Lastly, an addendum: young, current composer mixing freely with popular idioms and players? Read this review of Nico Muhly on the "Whale Watching Tour", with players from the Icelandic indie movement...

http://drownedinsound.com/gigs/45241/reviews/4139823

Cheers,
Jon

Jon>"Ok, bottom line from me: I don't think microtonal popular music will ever arrive with any significant following."
Right, but how do you gain said significant following as a "foundation"? I'm pretty sure it's not by trying to introduce it through rigorously academic musical styles only a tiny fraction of the population enjoys...no matter how "technically superior" they may be.

I can't figure out what the original post Michael wrote was that made
you say this, since you didn't quote it, but

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 12:41 AM, jonszanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, bottom line from me: I don't think microtonal popular music will ever arrive with any significant following.

you mean like ever? forever ever?

-Mike

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> Jon>"Ok, bottom line from me: I don't think microtonal popular music will ever arrive with any significant following."
> Right, but how do you gain said significant following as a "foundation"? I'm pretty sure it's not by trying to introduce it through rigorously academic musical styles only a tiny fraction of the population enjoys...no matter how "technically superior" they may be.

Get off it! I didn't say ANYTHING about introducing it from "rigorously academic musical styles". Where on earth did you get that?

No, what I am saying is that I don't think there is anything you, or anyone else, can do to make microtonality broadly popular. Or however it is you are choosing to word it. It is a niche, and will stay a niche.

And if you think I'm full of shit, please: don't ask questions of others, I'd like YOU to tell me how you think it can be done. Or, better yet, don't ignore my proposal to you: go away from the lists and come back with at least three popular microtonal songs.

Michael, I like you, and I've benefited from musical sources you've pointed me to. But I'm telling you in plain English: you have strained pretty much *everyone's* patience. I'm about as open-minded a musician as you're likely to find, with feet in both classical and populist camps, and I can honestly say that I'm worn out with your quest. Not from the goal, but from your chosen mode of pursuit.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> I can't figure out what the original post Michael wrote was that made
> you say this, since you didn't quote it, but
>
> On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 12:41 AM, jonszanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, bottom line from me: I don't think microtonal popular music will ever arrive with any significant following.
>
> you mean like ever? forever ever?

Michael has played so many word games and changed the goal posts so often, I'm worn out. My understanding was that he was asking "how can we get microtonality into popular music, in a form that people will both accept and yet be new and stimulating", or something similar.

And, yeah. Well, hell Mike, probably not forever, but not in my lifetime. And who knows how long we've got left on this planet, anyway.

Nope. Not going to happen.

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:39 AM, jonszanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
> Michael has played so many word games and changed the goal posts so often, I'm worn out. My understanding was that he was asking "how can we get microtonality into popular music, in a form that people will both accept and yet be new and stimulating", or something similar.
>
> And, yeah. Well, hell Mike, probably not forever, but not in my lifetime. And who knows how long we've got left on this planet, anyway.
>
> Nope. Not going to happen.

I think it very well may happen in a "watered down version" of what's
going on at this list. I don't know if we'll see mavila catching on
anytime soon, but keep in mind that the 20th century was all about
finding different harmonic things to do in 12-tet besides using it as
a meantone temperament. And I don't just mean in the atonal sense, but
in a harmonic sense as well. Would that be xenharmonic music in
12-tet?

Or for it to be xenharmonic, would the tuning have to change? So what
if someone did a 5-limit adaptive JI piece then? I just did a 5-limit
adaptive piece for my dad's doo wop album (I recorded it one chord at
a time and retuned the guitar each time). Most people won't never
notice, but to me the harmony sounds exceptionally "clean." Is that
microtonal?

Anyway, without playing word games, I suppose the general consensus
would be that no, neither of those are really what anyone's getting at
when they're talking about "microtonal pop music." But I think before
we get crazy BP scale stuff in pop music, we'll see stuff like that
happening first... a subtle retuning of 12-tet to adaptive-JI for
electronic stuff (as an "aural effect"), or the use of more clever
temperaments existing within 12-tet that haven't been really explored
(like the 17- and 19- limit temperaments I posted last week).

I could see that eventually evolving into either meantone+7 or
meantone +11 as a "bridge" to more crazy stuff too. If classical guys
are messing around with crazy tuning, then there's always that sect of
"artsy" bands like Bjork and Radiohead that like to imitate stuff like
that (Radiohead has used string arrangements with quarter tones and
such).

But I doubt we'll see popular musicians delving into regular mapping
and treating each temperament as a different possible armonic language
to explore as is being done on this list before the end of the world
in 2012.

I also have a prediction that whatever band first does get into
microtonal stuff is going to have all kinds of stupid numerological
ideas about it. I have hence given this the term "bro-theory." As in,
"hey bro, didn't you know that 12 equal is out of tune? yeah, because
the fifths aren't actually pure, 12 of them aren't supposed to match
up like that."

-Mike

>"Get off it! I didn't say ANYTHING about introducing it from "rigorously
academic musical styles". Where on earth did you get that?"
It was the general topic of the discussion when you joined...and I assume you had put your statement in that context. I apologize since now it's clear you did not mean it in such a way.

>"No, what I am saying is that I don't think there is anything you, or anyone else, can do to make microtonality broadly popular."
Well what can I say.....I have HHHHHHIIIIIIIIGH hopes... ;-)

>"Michael, I like you, and I've benefited from musical sources you've
pointed me to. But I'm telling you in plain English: you have strained
pretty much *everyone's* patience. I'm about as open-minded a musician
as you're likely to find, with feet in both classical and populist
camps, and I can honestly say that I'm worn out with your quest. Not
from the goal, but from your chosen mode of pursuit."

Yet it sounds like to me you've already given up on the goal by saying "I don't think there is anything you, or anyone else, can do to make micro-tonality broadly popular." Please tell me what you think is wrong with the way I'm pursuing this goal, though...and I'll listen.

>"Or, better yet, don't ignore my proposal to you: go away from the lists
and come back with at least three popular microtonal songs."
To be honest, I'm not that talented in a composer: can't do that in 12TET either IE "make popular songs". But far as songs in intended-to-be-easily-digested-by-the-public songs, look at Sevish's "Crack My Pitch Up" compilation: one of the songs is mine. And when he makes a second album I have yet another work already in progress for it...using a completely different scale as well. As for the third...hey it will come, but no rush. :-)

Jon>"Michael has played so many word games and changed the goal posts so
often, I'm worn out. My understanding was that he was asking "how can
we get microtonality into popular music, in a form that people will
both accept and yet be new and stimulating" , or something similar."

YES! That's what a named the title of the first posting that started this chain of threads. Chris changed the topic multiple times to use of half-steps, a book-length debate about how I used the term "polyphony" incorrectly, "why only the composer, not the tuning, matters", also Franklin Cox kept bringing up music and patterns of attracting audiences before 1980 when I clearly said the topic concerned applying micro-tonality to pop music in the past 20 years...and he hasn't stopped.

In general man are you wrong...I am perhaps one of the very few people on this thread who actually have made a deliberate effort to "change the topic BACK to the original topic and AVOID letting it go off topic"!

MikeB>"I could see that eventually evolving into either meantone+7 or
meantone +11 as a "bridge" to more crazy stuff too. If classical guys
are messing around with crazy tuning, then there's always that sect of
"artsy" bands like Bjork and Radiohead that like to imitate stuff like
that (Radiohead has used string arrangements with quarter tones and
such)."

Related to the last 30 or so years and a relatively current audience...check.
Related to putting micro-tonal into the public eye...check.
Not related to "Motets", "Polyphony", "12TET impossible use of semi-tones"...or something else ridiculously off topic or flat-out based on arguing against something never said..check.

Ladies and gentlemen...we just might finally be back on my original topic (thank you Mike B)! :-)

And for the record, I agree bands like Radiohead are a great "target". Same goes with Fatboy Slim...who makes a point out of mixing supposedly badly-made unpopular un-publically-digestable recordings and re-mixing them into huge hits.

LOL, well let's put it this way: I don't think that other tunings are
"impossible" to be made popular, I just think that the ones I listed
are most likely to spontaneously catch on. I think it's possible to
write a "sellable" song using mavila or any other crazy temperament
you can think of, if you're clever enough. I just don't think the
average musician would even know those temperaments exist, much less
try to use them.

Let me put it this way: if any popular music made with crazy
temperaments DOES catch on, it'll be by someone on this list.
Hopefully me, if I could ever get out of this 2-year creative slump
I've been in.

-Mike

Michael said:
> MikeB>"I could see that eventually evolving into either meantone+7 or
> meantone +11 as a "bridge" to more crazy stuff too. If classical guys
> are messing around with crazy tuning, then there's always that sect of
> "artsy" bands like Bjork and Radiohead that like to imitate stuff like
> that (Radiohead has used string arrangements with quarter tones and
> such)."
>
> Related to the last 30 or so years and a relatively current audience...check.
> Related to putting micro-tonal into the public eye...check.
> Not related to "Motets", "Polyphony", "12TET impossible use of semi-tones"...or something else ridiculously off topic or flat-out based on arguing against something never said..check.
>
> Ladies and gentlemen...we just might finally be back on my original topic (thank you Mike B)! :-)
>
> And for the record, I agree bands like Radiohead are a great "target".  Same goes with Fatboy Slim...who makes a point out of mixing supposedly badly-made unpopular un-publically-digestable recordings and re-mixing them into huge hits.

>"LOL, well let's put it this way: I don't think that other tunings are "impossible" to be made popular, I just think that the ones I listed are most likely to spontaneously catch on."
Precisely, that's the point I also made about my own tunings, 22TET, Wilson's Six Hexanies, and other scales...there are simply certain ones I think will have a better chance of making it...and not to say others can't. Same idea. :-)

>"Let me put it this way: if any popular music made with crazy temperaments DOES catch on, it'll be by someone on this list. Hopefully me, if I could ever get out of this 2-year creative slump I've been in."
Well, best of luck (and, dare I ask...where can I find examples of your music)! Also I've seen some of the stuff I've heard from Carlos, Sevish, Igs, and Cameron in particular from this list have indeed made me wonder if one of them will be the first to break the mold. I know I go on sometimes about getting the general public's attention to recruit more composers and increase the chances say one of them will pop into a Top 40 somewhere and make the world aware of micro-tonality...but the flip side is I've seen signs that indeed...someone from this list may be the first. :-)