Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Re: Raised third?

Here are two brief *.WAV files with a sustained Major 10th joined, with a
delay by a a tone 3:2 above the lower tone in the tenth:

in
http://home.snafu.de/djwolf/24.19.WAV
the 10th is tuned 48:19 (or 24:19 plus an octave)

and

in
http://home.snafu.de/djwolf/5.3.2.WAV
the 10th is tuned 5:2 (5:4 plus an octave)

The chords are played twice, once with sines, once with triangle waves.

Daniel Wolf

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf@snafu.de>

Try again. I just redid them with less amplitude. These are synthesized
directly, using ACIDWAV, not recorded, and each begins with the chord in
sine waves followed by triangles. I tried the sawtooth and square waveforms,
but they are very hard to listen to.

DJW

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul H. Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>
To: <tuning@onelist.com>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: [tuning] Raised third?

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>
>
> Daniel, I listened to the .wav files and there is a large amount of
> intermodulation distortion in them. I can play other .wav files just fine,
> so the problem must be in your recording equipment.
>
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🔗Paul H. Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf@snafu.de>

I use 44kH at home, but for small email-able test files, I think 22kH is
optimal. Otherwise, convert the 44kH files to mp3.

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>
>
> I just realized that using Matlab, I too can create .wav files! Any
> requests? Any recommendations on what sample rate to specify for best
> reproduction on standard equipment? (I don't have a url to upload to, so
> I'll have to e-mail these to you on a personal basis.)
>

Daniel Wolf
djwolf@snafu.de
http://home.snafu.de/djwolf/

🔗Carl Lumma <CLUMMA@NNI.COM>

🔗Gerald Eskelin <stg3music@earthlink.net>

Wow!!!! Stop the presses!

Dan Wolf posted:
>
> Here are two brief *.WAV files with a sustained Major 10th joined, with a
> delay by a a tone 3:2 above the lower tone in the tenth:
>
> in
> http://home.snafu.de/djwolf/24.19.WAV
> the 10th is tuned 48:19 (or 24:19 plus an octave)
>
> and
>
> in
> http://home.snafu.de/djwolf/5.3.2.WAV
> the 10th is tuned 5:2 (5:4 plus an octave)
>
> The chords are played twice, once with sines, once with triangle waves.
>
This is REALLY interesting, Dan. On initial hearing, both of the sine-wave
thirds struck me as "good" (although I hear the difference clearly) and both
of the triangle thirds struck me as "flat." So, does timbre influence the
perception of pitch and consonance? Evidently, it _does.

As I replayed the examples, I thought the high third (before the fifth came
in) was a bit _too high, but very close to "my" high third. However, when
the fifth entered it seemed to "justify" the high tuning of the third.

I then played and compared short snippets of each of the thirds before the
fifth entered, then short snippets of the whole triads. To some extent the
differences faded as my ears accommodated the sounds and (perhaps) morphed
them to fit my "acceptable" range.

A most intriguing experience occurred while listening to the sine wave
example containing the 5:4 third. Upon repeated playings, I had the
impression that when the fifth entered the third raised slightly to sound
more like the "high third." Clearly, Dan did not change the actual physical
pitch of the third, yet my perception could easily "hear" it as having moved
higher. The impression was not as vivid in the triangle wave example, but it
was still there. As each of these sounds drifted to silence, the "echo"
tuned to my concept of the high third.

Then I went back to the 24/19 examples and experienced the same thing. While
the third before the fifth came in was "in the ballpark," when the fifth
came in it seemed to move slightly higher. Again, more clearly in the sine
wave example and to a lesser extent in the triangle wave example.

Apparently, at least two things are happening here. (1) There appears to be
more than one "acceptable" version of a well-tuned third (no surprise), and
(2) no matter which third is "preferred," the presence of the fifth seems to
modify (raise) the perception of the relative pitch of that third.

I hope many of you will listen to these sound examples and post your
impressions. I think I'll stick around a bit longer and see where this one
lands. :-)))))

Good one, Dan!

Jerry

🔗Gerald Eskelin <stg3music@earthlink.net>

Dan Wolf said:
>
> Jerry Eskelin's reactions to the wav files suggest that his impression of a
> raised third has little to do with the actual size of the intervals
> involved.

At least in this case. I mentioned in that post that there may be two
different things involved in understanding the "high third" phenomenon.
(More to come when I have time to frame my thoughts on this carefully.)

> I don't doubt that Jerry is hearing the interval move, but I
> don't hear it myself. Perhaps this phenomena is more in the realm of
> individual psychology -- each one of us has a lifetime of experience with
> musical materials, and the ways in which we experience and identify these
> materials can be highly individualized.

I think you are right. But before we accept that you can't hear this pitch
change, try tuning a keyboard note to her first G and then see if you hear
it move off that tuning when you compare her G to that same keyboard note
after the final chord arrives.
>
> If your main performing situation is with choral voices, where even a unison
> is more a matter of faith than fact, the amount of wavering is probably
> going to be well within the whole range of intervals we've been discussing.

Perhaps. Of course there are vocal unisons and then there are vocal unisons.
I'm not saying LA Jazz Choir unisons are perfect, but they're damned close.
>
> For what it's worth, I've added two more downloadable WAV files with the
> same chord:
>
> http://home.snafu.de/djwolf/9.7.WAV
> has the tenth tuned to 18:7 (the septimal 9:7 plus an octave)
>
This is "way sharp" both before and after the fifth enters.
>
> http://home.snafu.de/djwolf/81.64.WAV
> has the tenth tuned to 81:32 (the pythagorean 81:64 plus an octave)

This is still a bit sharp, but I wouldn't kick it out of bed.

Thanks for your interest in this topic, Dan

Jerry

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>

Dan Wolf said:
>
>> Jerry Eskelin's reactions to the wav files suggest that his impression of
a
>> raised third has little to do with the actual size of the intervals
>> involved.

Jerry Eskelin wrote,

>At least in this case. I mentioned in that post that there may be two
>different things involved in understanding the "high third" phenomenon.
>(More to come when I have time to frame my thoughts on this carefully.)

Looking forward to that. In any case, please note that Daniel Wolf's
examples were highly artificial in that the timbres were a sine wave, which
contains no harmonics, and a triangle wave, which contains no even harmonics
and is sort of an idealized clarinet. The "shifting" Jerry heard with the
sine waves is consistent with the effect I mentioned earlier (I cited some
German papers) where sine-wave pitches tend to push one another apart.