Marcel's Task

Marcel,

Your task is to:

1. Analyze the Prelude to Wagner's "Tristan und Isolde".
2. Retune it according to your system.

I don't think you can. I don't think your system is nearly as universal as you imagine it to be. It took you months of errors and tweaking to get to some kind of finality on that little Beethoven piece, a piece that is far less complex, and I don't think your solution convinced many people.

I'm not saying you haven't found something that has value, or that takes a unique look at Western music. But you continue, week after week, to make grandiose claims for something that you haven't even *begun* to back up.

Try the Wagner. See what happens.

And then I want him to tackle something by Debussy, so he can realize that
his permuted "scale" doesn't even handle all of the chords that people use.
Perhaps "Les Feuilles Mortes" or "Hommage a Rameau" or "Reflets Dans L'eau."
Hell, I had enough trouble putting Reverie into 72-tet that I almost want to
see him try that.

-Mike

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 10:57 PM, jonszanto <jszanto@...> wrote:

>
>
> Marcel,
>
> Your task is to:
>
> 1. Analyze the Prelude to Wagner's "Tristan und Isolde".
> 2. Retune it according to your system.
>
> I don't think you can. I don't think your system is nearly as universal as
> you imagine it to be. It took you months of errors and tweaking to get to
> some kind of finality on that little Beethoven piece, a piece that is far
> less complex, and I don't think your solution convinced many people.
>
> I'm not saying you haven't found something that has value, or that takes a
> unique look at Western music. But you continue, week after week, to make
> grandiose claims for something that you haven't even *begun* to back up.
>
> Try the Wagner. See what happens.
>
>
>

Hell, I had enough trouble putting Reverie into 72-tet that I almost
want to see him try that.

Can I hear that?

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 12:05 AM, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> And then I want him to tackle something by Debussy, so he can realize that his permuted "scale" doesn't even handle all of the chords that people use. Perhaps "Les Feuilles Mortes" or "Hommage a Rameau" or "Reflets Dans L'eau." Hell, I had enough trouble putting Reverie into 72-tet that I almost want to see him try that.
>
> -Mike
>

Hell, I'd be happy if he tackled Bill Evans "Waltz for Debby." The amount of
5-limit comma pumps in that piece is truly frightening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH3GSrCmzC8

Good luck dealing with the commas there. The entire piece is a bunch of
iim7-Vsus9 chords that move around in diatonic ways via the circle of
(meantone) fifths. The irony is that you could probably come up with a
halfway-decent JI interpretation of it, but it isn't going to fit into
Marcel's "scale." The end result would be that every single chord would have
to be viewed as a modulation into a separate "key" in his system, while
still clearly being an (extended) part of F major in reality. If that
doesn't put the nail in the coffin there, I don't know what will.

Of course, go tackle Jon's first, since he's the first guy to come up with
the idea >:|

-Mike

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 12:05 AM, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>wrote:

> And then I want him to tackle something by Debussy, so he can realize that
> his permuted "scale" doesn't even handle all of the chords that people use.
> Perhaps "Les Feuilles Mortes" or "Hommage a Rameau" or "Reflets Dans L'eau."
> Hell, I had enough trouble putting Reverie into 72-tet that I almost want to
> see him try that.
>
> -Mike
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 10:57 PM, jonszanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Marcel,
>>
>> Your task is to:
>>
>> 1. Analyze the Prelude to Wagner's "Tristan und Isolde".
>> 2. Retune it according to your system.
>>
>> I don't think you can. I don't think your system is nearly as universal as
>> you imagine it to be. It took you months of errors and tweaking to get to
>> some kind of finality on that little Beethoven piece, a piece that is far
>> less complex, and I don't think your solution convinced many people.
>>
>> I'm not saying you haven't found something that has value, or that takes a
>> unique look at Western music. But you continue, week after week, to make
>> grandiose claims for something that you haven't even *begun* to back up.
>>
>> Try the Wagner. See what happens.
>>
>>
>>
>
>

It's like 1/4 of the way done. I'm actually resuming work on it as we speak.

-Mike

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 12:16 AM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> Hell, I had enough trouble putting Reverie into 72-tet that I almost
> want to see him try that.
>
> Can I hear that?
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 12:05 AM, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...<battaglia01%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > And then I want him to tackle something by Debussy, so he can realize
> that his permuted "scale" doesn't even handle all of the chords that people
> use. Perhaps "Les Feuilles Mortes" or "Hommage a Rameau" or "Reflets Dans
> L'eau." Hell, I had enough trouble putting Reverie into 72-tet that I almost
> want to see him try that.
> >
> > -Mike
> >
>
>

On 26 April 2010 06:21, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> Hell, I'd be happy if he tackled Bill Evans "Waltz for Debby." The amount
> of 5-limit comma pumps in that piece is truly frightening.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH3GSrCmzC8
>
> Good luck dealing with the commas there. The entire piece is a bunch of
> iim7-Vsus9 chords that move around in diatonic ways via the circle of
> (meantone) fifths. The irony is that you could probably come up with a
> halfway-decent JI interpretation of it, but it isn't going to fit into
> Marcel's "scale." The end result would be that every single chord would have
> to be viewed as a modulation into a separate "key" in his system, while
> still clearly being an (extended) part of F major in reality. If that
> doesn't put the nail in the coffin there, I don't know what will.
>
> Of course, go tackle Jon's first, since he's the first guy to come up with
> the idea >:|
>
> -Mike
>
Waltz for debbie would be pretty easy i can hear allready :)
My system has no comma problems ever.
Way easyer than the Beethoven.

Marcel

Hi John,

> 1. Analyze the Prelude to Wagner's "Tristan und Isolde".
> 2. Retune it according to your system.
>
> I don't think you can. I don't think your system is nearly as universal as
> you imagine it to be. It took you months of errors and tweaking to get to
> some kind of finality on that little Beethoven piece, a piece that is far
> less complex, and I don't think your solution convinced many people.
>
> I'm not saying you haven't found something that has value, or that takes a
> unique look at Western music. But you continue, week after week, to make
> grandiose claims for something that you haven't even *begun* to back up.
>
> Try the Wagner. See what happens.
>

I'll try with joy :)
Atleast a part.
But I have too much to do allready, it's on my shortlist now though.

Btw the reason it took me almost a year! (i think, or was it longer?) to get
the Beethoven like this was because I was using it as my testpiece for
developing my theory. There were so many little ifs and ways to look at
things that I needed to do a lot of finetuning. And at times I tried even
completely different things etc.
The drei equale no2 I did in 2-3 days.

Marcel

On 26 April 2010 06:39, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:

> Try the Wagner. See what happens.
>>
>
> I'll try with joy :)
> Atleast a part.
> But I have too much to do allready, it's on my shortlist now though.

Pff you know what.
I've just listened to the whole piece.
It's slow and looong.
It's defenately something I could do, but it would take me so much time.
I'd rather try a part of Debussy's Reverie as Mike suggested. Would be
easyer just because of the number of notes, and that it's available for
piano, not entire orchestra.

Marcel