Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Re : AEH Ethno2 microtonal demos competition

Hi friends,
Here are some news of the Ethno 2 demos competition...
Candidatures to this day from Tuning List members have been very small - only 4, including myself.
And in order to not delay the boxes delivery any more, 8 people have been already selected :
Torsten Anders (actually in UK)
Chris Vaisvil (US)
Cameron Bobro (Slovenija)
Jacques Dudon (France)
Jerome Desigaud (France)
Francois Breton (France)
Jean-Pierre Poulin (France)
Bernard Kalef (France)
(some of them may have joined the Tuning List since)

It means there are still 4 free Ethno boxes left !
In order to facilitate the determination of more people, I placed in the Tuning List files- an archive of all the 155 Scalas files of Ethno2, plus complete lists ; so anyone who wants to evaluate the tunings in detail can have a look and test them, and print the lists.
No one asked for modifications, so the rules of the competition (here below) are now definitive.
I only added a few precisions and tolerances such as :
- possibility to replace previously sent demos for further improvements (in order to profit from internet sharing sooner) ;
- possibility to use one's own voice or other singer's voice (but no samples) in addition to Ethno instruments, not more than for one half of the demos sent ;
- original tunings, when issued from recurrent series, can be extended to other series of the same algorithms, as well as to more than 12 notes (I will developp that in another mail later) ;
- if some of the participants do not use plug-in facilities, there will be a special "standalone" prize, for example for people using an external multitrack recorder instead of an audio sequencer (by the way, on the contrary to I have read this week in another microtonal forum, scala-retuning of Ethno2 in the plug-in mode works, I had no problem to do it in ProTools personnally).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
DEFINITIVE ETHNO 2 MICROTONAL DEMOS COMPETITION RULES

The AEH is opening a microtonal competition where one can win a free box of MOTU Ethno version 2 (value 374 $ or 329 euros), a virtual world instrument plug-in now Scala-compatible and provided with 155 extended-JI tunings :
http://www.motu.com/products/software/ethno/microtuning.html
These boxes are complete, with a demo license, and cannot be used for resale.

CALENDAR :
1. In a first period, candidates may send me offlist a short mail saying that they are interested to participate, with their full postal address, profession /activities, and an eventual web page about their music.
Please write only if you have a machine that meets the required configurations for installing Ethno 2 (check on MOTU's website page Specifications / Full system requirements) :
http://www.motu.com/techsupport/technotes/ethno-instrument-2-system-requirements
(unfortunately Linux operating systems do not apply to those)
2. In a second period, the AEH will answer either by accepting your candidature, or by refusing it (with an explanation), or by asking eventual precisions or links to some of your works.
3. The AEH jury (composed of the AEH administrators and other adherents) will then deliberate and select 12 concurrents, will inform them personnally, and send them each one Ethno box, to our own charge (I can't say at the moment if the participants will have to pay customs charges at reception, but normally not).
4. In a third period, the candidates will have up to the 21st of June 2010 to sent their musical works (free of rights), in the form of mp3 files, each one with a title and one line of presentation. Before this date participants have the possibility to cancel previously sent demos.
5. The AEH jury will then select a few demos in different categories among which some, along with the musician name and line of presentation, will be proposed for the Ethno2 pages of MOTU's website, and eventually other sites. The results will be mailed to the participants and to the Tuning List.
6. Without engagement about it, and only if the received demos show a high level of musical quality, the AEH may edit a CD mix of a collection of them.

SPECIFIC RULES :
1. The competition is open to all and covers two categories :
- the first one concerns works based on the original Ethno2 microtunings (except the default tuning) ;
- the second one concerns all other microtunings, either from the Scala archive or other sources, or the participant's personal tunings.
2. In both categories the tunings will have to be precised.
3. There is no maximum of demos by participant for both categories, but whatever the tuning choices, selected participants have to produce at least THREE demos using the original Ethno2 tunings.
The reasons for that rule are at least double : for one thing these original tunings represent an important research work from the AEH and hearing them played and perhaps commented by other musicians, besides being a great pleasure, will serve this work ; but also, musicians able to create their own tunings or even to choose them from other sources being an infime proportion of Ethno2 potential purchasers, it is fair to ask that all participants, even if advanced microtonalists, contribute to a minimum of demos using the original tunings.
Original tunings, when issued from recurrent series, can be modified by extension to other series of the same algorithms, as well as to more than 12 notes of the same series.
4. Musical styles are open, they can range from traditional music or imitations, ethno-rock, or experimental, ETC., but should have a microtonal character AND be pleasant to hear, even for non-connoisseurs.
5. Ethno has to be the only sound source, and the only tools authorized to make these demos are Ethno2, and multitrack recorders or audio/MIDI sequencers. For not more than one half of the demos sent is conceded the possibility to use the participant's own voice or another singer's voice (but no samples), in addition to Ethno instruments.
6. Except for improbable combinations we dissuade the use of melodic loops and phrases from Ethno, simply because their tunings are non-tunable, either 12-ET or undefined, and would add confusion.
7. Demos can be sent any time at Jacques Dudon's personal mail :
fotosonix@...
8. They should be in mp3 format, 44,1 Khz MPEG stereo, 160 kbps.
9. Their minimum duration should be 50", and maximum 3 minutes (in the eventuality of a CD release, longer versions and in WAV format could be asked from the participants).
10. Participants who fail to fulfill the rules for whatever reason or unforeseen difficulty will have to uninstall Ethno2 and return the full Ethno box to their own charges to the AEH as soon as possible and before the 21st of May 2010 at latest.
11. People who already own Ethno2 may participate for fun, without the required minimum of 3 demos asked to other participants.
12. The AEH has no objection to the divulgation of the demos in competition by their authors at any time (for example through links mailed to the Tuning List, but NOT by sending files to the Tuning List).

ADDITIONAL INFORMATIONS :
A technical report on Ethno 2 by myself and additional infos on the original tunings can be consulted in messages 87410 and 87411 (14th of april) :
Some technical aspects of Ethno2
Ethno2 microtunings
then in message 87434 (15th of april) :
Re: Ethno2 microtunings

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jacques Dudon

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

🔗Carlo <carlo@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Dear Jacques, I wonder if I could do anything with my Nishabureyn
Peshrev as a possible micro-tuned Middle Eastern candidate for a box
of Ethno2.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Apr 23, 2010, at 4:36 PM, Jacques Dudon wrote:

>
>
> Hi friends,
> Here are some news of the Ethno 2 demos competition...
> Candidatures to this day from Tuning List members have been very
> small - only 4, including myself.
> And in order to not delay the boxes delivery any more, 8 people have
> been already selected :
> Torsten Anders (actually in UK)
> Chris Vaisvil (US)
> Cameron Bobro (Slovenija)
> Jacques Dudon (France)
> Jerome Desigaud (France)
> Francois Breton (France)
> Jean-Pierre Poulin (France)
> Bernard Kalef (France)
> (some of them may have joined the Tuning List since)
>
> It means there are still 4 free Ethno boxes left !
> In order to facilitate the determination of more people, I placed in
> the Tuning List files- an archive of all the 155 Scalas files of
> Ethno2, plus complete lists ; so anyone who wants to evaluate the
> tunings in detail can have a look and test them, and print the lists.
> No one asked for modifications, so the rules of the competition
> (here below) are now definitive.
> I only added a few precisions and tolerances such as :
> - possibility to replace previously sent demos for further
> improvements (in order to profit from internet sharing sooner) ;
> - possibility to use one's own voice or other singer's voice (but no
> samples) in addition to Ethno instruments, not more than for one
> half of the demos sent ;
> - original tunings, when issued from recurrent series, can be
> extended to other series of the same algorithms, as well as to more
> than 12 notes (I will developp that in another mail later) ;
> - if some of the participants do not use plug-in facilities, there
> will be a special "standalone" prize, for example for people using
> an external multitrack recorder instead of an audio sequencer (by> the way, on the contrary to I have read this week in another
> microtonal forum, scala-retuning of Ethno2 in the plug-in mode
> works, I had no problem to do it in ProTools personnally).
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> DEFINITIVE ETHNO 2 MICROTONAL DEMOS COMPETITION RULES
>
> The AEH is opening a microtonal competition where one can win a free
> box of MOTU Ethno version 2 (value 374 $ or 329 euros), a virtual
> world instrument plug-in now Scala-compatible and provided with 155
> extended-JI tunings :
> http://www.motu.com/products/software/ethno/microtuning.html
> These boxes are complete, with a demo license, and cannot be used
> for resale.
>
> CALENDAR :
> 1. In a first period, candidates may send me offlist a short mail
> saying that they are interested to participate, with their full
> postal address, profession /activities, and an eventual web page
> about their music.
> Please write only if you have a machine that meets the required
> configurations for installing Ethno 2 (check on MOTU's website page
> Specifications / Full system requirements) :
> http://www.motu.com/techsupport/technotes/ethno-instrument-2-system-requirements
> (unfortunately Linux operating systems do not apply to those)
> 2. In a second period, the AEH will answer either by accepting your
> candidature, or by refusing it (with an explanation), or by asking
> eventual precisions or links to some of your works.
> 3. The AEH jury (composed of the AEH administrators and other
> adherents) will then deliberate and select 12 concurrents, will
> inform them personnally, and send them each one Ethno box, to our
> own charge (I can't say at the moment if the participants will have
> to pay customs charges at reception, but normally not).
> 4. In a third period, the candidates will have up to the 21st of
> June 2010 to sent their musical works (free of rights), in the form
> of mp3 files, each one with a title and one line of presentation.
> Before this date participants have the possibility to cancel
> previously sent demos.
> 5. The AEH jury will then select a few demos in different categories
> among which some, along with the musician name and line of
> presentation, will be proposed for the Ethno2 pages of MOTU's
> website, and eventually other sites. The results will be mailed to
> the participants and to the Tuning List.
> 6. Without engagement about it, and only if the received demos show
> a high level of musical quality, the AEH may edit a CD mix of a
> collection of them.
>
> SPECIFIC RULES :
> 1. The competition is open to all and covers two categories :
> - the first one concerns works based on the original Ethno2
> microtunings (except the default tuning) ;
> - the second one concerns all other microtunings, either from the
> Scala archive or other sources, or the participant's personal tunings.
> 2. In both categories the tunings will have to be precised.
> 3. There is no maximum of demos by participant for both categories,
> but whatever the tuning choices, selected participants have to
> produce at least THREE demos using the original Ethno2 tunings.
> The reasons for that rule are at least double : for one thing these
> original tunings represent an important research work from the AEH
> and hearing them played and perhaps commented by other musicians,
> besides being a great pleasure, will serve this work ; but also,
> musicians able to create their own tunings or even to choose them
> from other sources being an infime proportion of Ethno2 potential
> purchasers, it is fair to ask that all participants, even if
> advanced microtonalists, contribute to a minimum of demos using the
> original tunings.
> Original tunings, when issued from recurrent series, can be modified
> by extension to other series of the same algorithms, as well as to
> more than 12 notes of the same series.
> 4. Musical styles are open, they can range from traditional music or
> imitations, ethno-rock, or experimental, ETC., but should have a
> microtonal character AND be pleasant to hear, even for non-
> connoisseurs.
> 5. Ethno has to be the only sound source, and the only tools
> authorized to make these demos are Ethno2, and multitrack recorders
> or audio/MIDI sequencers. For not more than one half of the demos
> sent is conceded the possibility to use the participant's own voice
> or another singer's voice (but no samples), in addition to Ethno
> instruments.
> 6. Except for improbable combinations we dissuade the use of melodic
> loops and phrases from Ethno, simply because their tunings are non-
> tunable, either 12-ET or undefined, and would add confusion.
> 7. Demos can be sent any time at Jacques Dudon's personal mail :
> fotosonix@...
> 8. They should be in mp3 format, 44,1 Khz MPEG stereo, 160 kbps.
> 9. Their minimum duration should be 50", and maximum 3 minutes (in
> the eventuality of a CD release, longer versions and in WAV format
> could be asked from the participants).
> 10. Participants who fail to fulfill the rules for whatever reason
> or unforeseen difficulty will have to uninstall Ethno2 and return
> the full Ethno box to their own charges to the AEH as soon as
> possible and before the 21st of May 2010 at latest.
> 11. People who already own Ethno2 may participate for fun, without
> the required minimum of 3 demos asked to other participants.
> 12. The AEH has no objection to the divulgation of the demos in
> competition by their authors at any time (for example through links > mailed to the Tuning List, but NOT by sending files to the Tuning
> List).
>
> ADDITIONAL INFORMATIONS :
> A technical report on Ethno 2 by myself and additional infos on the
> original tunings can be consulted in messages 87410 and 87411 (14th
> of april) :
> Some technical aspects of Ethno2
> Ethno2 microtunings
> then in message 87434 (15th of april) :
> Re: Ethno2 microtunings
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Jacques Dudon
>
>
>

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗jacques.dudon <fotosonix@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

From the records I have (I can't judge the authenticity, but it looks authentic, not only as a music for foreign tourists) this could be analysed:

Georgia:
- vocal music - mainly male choirs, two voice melodies in paralel diatonic thirds, triadic major and minor chords, seven-tone scales similar to the other in Indo-European region (like Ionian, Phrygian, Dorian, combined Phrygian-Dorian, Aeolian, Mixolydian), influence of Persian-Turkish music can be found in Phrygian second which can be quarter tone higher and can be also found in Major scale, and in the ornamentation of melodies. Sometimes there's a drone - fifth grade of the scale. Often rather complex polyphonic leading of voices and rather unusual modulations and surprising harmonic progressions, and using of yodeling effects and falsetto in male choruses. Polyphony reminds Orthodox Church chants. Modal harmony. Sometimes neutral third, or missing third, or quartal chord. Seventh chords often only as a result of polyphonic paralel movement in thirds on fifth drone, so third is missing. Often 5/4 metre. In 3/4 metre rhythm oscillates between 3/4 and 6/8 like in Spanish/Latin music. Almost no microtonality.

- instrumental music - rich ornamentation of melodies, voice leading for example of two flutes is same like in vocal music (paralel thirds). In dances accelerando can be found very often.

I suppose some infuence of Slavonic (Russian) music can be expected in folklore and Orthodox Church music.

Armenia:
- vocal music - mixed choirs similar to Georgian, seven-tone scales (Ionian mainly, Lydian, Phrygian, Aeolian), bigger influence of Turkish music (maqam hijjaz), but not much ornamentation, melodies in paralel thirds or even triads, unusual modal jumps, often drone and melody in unison and octaves, 5/4 metre, combined metres like in Balcan music - often 3+2+3+2+2, rich syncopation.

- instrumental music - melodic instruments play in unison
I didn't hear any microtones or temperament in the records I have.

Thanks to their own church (Armenian Apostolic Church) they could probably avoid deeper influence of Russian Orthodox Church music.

Bulgaria:
They have very rich folklore with quite different influences - protopentatonics, pentatonics, shepherd's flute Carpathian culture with natural scale (Lydian+Mixolydian), Old Byzantion culture and Greek music (7-tone diatonic scales, even Locrian), Turkish and Arabic music (maqam hijjaz, mustaar, karjagar, huzam, quartertones), Russian Orthodox Church, Catholic Gregorian Chant, minor second paralel mixtures in choir singing... 7-tone scales, drones, rich ornamentation, glissandos, Complex metres and rhythms (like 2+3, 2+2+3, 2+2+2+3, 2+3+2+2, 3+2+2+2, 2+2+3+2+2, 3+2+3, 3+2+2+3, 2+2+3+3, 3+3+2+2, 2+3+3+3, 3+2+3+3, 3+3+2+3, 2+2+2+2+3, 3+2+2+2+2, 2+2+2+3+2, 3+2+2+2+3, 2+2+3+2+3, 2+3+2+2+3, 3+2+2+3+2, 3+2+3+2+3, 2+3+3+2+3, 3+2+3+3+3, 3+3+3+2+3, 2+2+2+2+2+3, 3+4+2+2+3+4...).

Daniel Forro

On 1 May 2010, at 6:44 AM, genewardsmith wrote:

>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...> wrote:
>
> > Dear Ozan,
> > Not only I would be really glad to welcome the only "non-western"
> > candidate...
>
> I've never been sure if Turkey is non-western or not, but I suppose > when it comes to music it is. What about Georgia, Armenia or even > Bulgaria?
>

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Très bien mon collègue!

I understand from the rules so far, that I am entitled to install and
use the Motu Ethno2 package meant for myself for as long as it takes
me to submit 3 demos (50'' up to 3' in length) by the 21st of June
(and keep the software if my candidature and demos are accepted), one
of which may be an arrangment (or an excerpt) of my Nishabureyn
Peshrev - and where I must strictly use Ethno sounds (with or without
live voice recording) using the original Ethno2 tunings by Jacques Dudon.

Another piece that I may submit to the AEH contest could perhaps involve my first microtonal audio-production adventure in 2000, where
I, without any knowledge of the particulars of the mathematics of
music then, composed a 2 minute intro for the "Sultans of The Dance"
musical show, which was liked but never used, where I bent the pitches
haphazardly to conform to a catchy tune in a strange Ushshaq-Kurdi
composite.

I'll see what I can do.

Cordially,
Oz.

â© â© â©
www.ozanyarman.com

On May 5, 2010, at 8:12 PM, Jacques Dudon wrote:

>
>
> Bonjour a tous,
>
> I announce that the selection period for the
> "AEH Ethno2 microtonal demos competition" is over.
> The 12th and last Ethno box was sent this morning,
> and we congratulate the 12 selected participants who are :
>
> ttrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ! (drum roll...)
>
> Torsten Anders (UK)
> Chris Vaisvil (US)
> Cameron Bobro (Slovenija)
> Jerome Desigaud (France)
> Francois Breton (France)
> Jean-Pierre Poulin (France)
> Bernard Kalef (France)
> Denis Grandclement (France)
> Herve Fouere (France)
> Jacques Dudon (France)
> Shaahin Mohajeri (Iran)
> Ozan Yarman (Turkey)
>
> ************************
>
> Remember it's always possible to participate if you purchase, like
> some others did, your own box (but I'm not here for advertising).
> We are looking for a solution to hear all the participants
> creations, in the meantime each one is welcome to send us links to
> his (or her) works in progress and I'm sure they will appreciate
> your feedback.
> Most of them are Tuning List members. Please encourage them, help
> them,
> and don't disturb them until the 21st of June, they have to work now !
> End of message.
> Thank you !
> - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Jacques Dudon

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On May 7, 2010, at 10:17 PM, Jacques Dudon wrote:

>
>
> Ozan wrote :
>
>> Très bien mon collègue!
>>
>> I understand from the rules so far, that I am entitled to install and
>> use the Motu Ethno2 package meant for myself for as long as it takes
>> me to submit 3 demos (50'' up to 3' in length) by the 21st of June
>> (and keep the software if my candidature and demos are accepted), one
>> of which may be an arrangment (or an excerpt) of my Nishabureyn
>> Peshrev - and where I must strictly use Ethno sounds (with or without
>> live voice recording) using the original Ethno2 tunings by Jacques
>> Dudon.
>
>
> Ethno sounds of course, optional voice OK, but the rules do not say
> you have to use the original tunings for ALL of your pieces, just
> minimum three.

That's about all I can come up with in the given time window I think.
So, stuck are we with the tunings in Ethno2.

> I have no idea if some of the original tunings would work for
> Nishabureyn Peshrev, by the way I found this piece magnificent and I
> am interested to know its tuning, can you say what is it ?

The original tuning for my piece is the 24-tone AEU subset out of 53-
EDO. Some established performance instructors of Turkish Classical
music have found the digital output not conforming to the practiced
intervals today by quotidian executants. That was a major point of me
adhering to the AEU pitches in fact: To show these musicians that
their veneration of the AEU theory is quite baseless even when I
totally conformed to it in everyway. Another major point was to
demonstrate how - even when employing the theory in effect to the full
- the musicians would be at a loss to handle the non-conforming
modulations and transpositions that STILL utilized the AEU pitches and
accidental symbols while pushing the limits of the system.

Now the issue is, if the Ethno2 library of original tunings in their
unaltered form prove to be insufficient in rendering the Nishabureyn
Peshrev as desired, I would like to know how to proceed. We'll talk
when or if we ever come to that of course.

>
>> Another piece that I may submit to the AEH contest could perhaps
>> involve my first microtonal audio-production adventure in 2000, where
>> I, without any knowledge of the particulars of the mathematics of
>> music then, composed a 2 minute intro for the "Sultans of The Dance"
>> musical show, which was liked but never used, where I bent the
>> pitches
>> haphazardly to conform to a catchy tune in a strange Ushshaq-Kurdi
>> composite.
>
>
> I like to hear that too !

Ah, patience! :)

> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Jacques
>
>
>
>

Oz.

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Dear Jacques, in between the lines:

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On May 8, 2010, at 12:38 AM, Jacques Dudon wrote:

>
>
> Ozan wrote :
>
>> That's about all I can come up with in the given time window I think.
>> So, stuck are we with the tunings in Ethno2.
>
>
> That's not a good calculation. What don't you do Nishabureyn Peshrev
> in the tuning you want ?
>

You mean WHY don't I choose the tuning(s) for myself in my
submissions? That's a thought. I have a good mind of employing
Yarman-24 or Yarman-36, or subsets thereof...

>> > (Jacques) : I have no idea if some of the original tunings would
>> work for
>> > Nishabureyn Peshrev, by the way I found this piece magnificent
>> and I
>> > am interested to know its tuning, can you say what is it ?
>>
>
>> The original tuning for my piece is the 24-tone AEU subset out of 53-
>> EDO.
>
>
> Where can I find this subset ? if you don't explain it, I cannot
> tell you if you can find it or not.

I had previously in this list expounded more than once the nature of
the Arel-Ezgi-Uzdilek system: The Pythagorean 24-tone tuning
constructed via the concatenation of 11 fifths up, 12 down from the
tone of origin which is taken as "perde kaba chargah" (notated as C4
on the staff but sounding a perfect fourth lower in the standart Ahenk
that is Bolahenk compared to the Western concert pitch).

But I am surely about to use pitches not pertaining to the AEU tone-
system in my projected Ethno2 rendition of the Nishabureyn Peshrev.

> There is a 3-limit cycle (3-limit_with429.scl) in the originals (ME
> 1). So if that's enough close to 53-edo for you,

Possibly! I will consider it.

> you could consider that the generator in this tuning is 3/2 and
> extend it as you wish, to fill up 24 notes. Would that be OK ?

I can mayhap extend it even further to realize certain micro-
alterations not existant in AEU.

> There are also many variants of quartertones tunings, but you have
> to check if they meet your requirements.

Also thinking whether it could be plausible to alternate between
tunings on the fly or make a mixdown in more than one tuning regarding
my Peshrev.

Let us communicate privately when I get my hands on the Ethno2 package.

> - - - - - - - -
> Jacques
>
>
>

Oz.

Re : AEH Ethno2 microtonal demos competition

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

🔗Carlo <carlo@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗jacques.dudon <fotosonix@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗Torsten Anders <torsten.anders@...>