Questions

Dear fellows,

-- May I know why a 12 tone scale (not necessarily 12TET) needs to be replaced by another one having a greater number of tones?.

-- Comments on JI scales with more than 12 tones seem to be discontinued. Any conclusion?.

-- It was too hard to me to follow you on microtonal proposals. I didn´t get clear any point.

Thanks

Mario Pizarro
piagui@...

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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mario Pizarro" <piagui@...> wrote:
>
> Dear fellows,
> -- May I know why a 12 tone scale (not necessarily 12TET) needs
> to be replaced by another one having a greater number of tones?.

Hi Mario,

Not all people here are interested only in scales with more
than 12 tones. Some are interested in scales with fewer tones.
Generally though, to increase the accuracy of a tuning one
needs more tones.

-Carl

On 20 Apr 2010, at 12:02 PM, Mario Pizarro wrote:

>
>
> Dear fellows,
>
> -- May I know why a 12 tone scale (not necessarily 12TET) needs to > be replaced by another one having a greater number of tones?.

Who said this? Did I miss something?
In my opinion it doesn't need to be replaced, why. But because chromatic system became a base of western music culture, it was enough used in the historical music of many styles until now and microtonality is one of possible future ways how to develop music. If we have more tones, we have more possibilities for melody and harmony. Increasing the quantity can be reflected also in increase in quality (hopefully), and for sure some new esthetics will come from it. But it needs also educated music consumers with sensitive ears, hungry for new listening experience. Unfortunately development of the most of musical culture goes in opposite way, to more primitive and simple structures, so I don't think this can be changed soon... We can't expect that people who are unable to listen and enjoy to Mozart, Debussy, Stravinski or Xenakis, or even jazz (thanks to bad education system and their own laziness to study more about music), will be too enthusiastic to listen contemporary work with 55 or 123 notes in octave.

Just a note: don't forget in this connection also scales or tuning systems with less notes then 12 in octave, as well as other systems which don't use octave as ambitus.

Daniel Forro

Dear fellows,

Daniel is correct, I said in my message "not necessarily 12 TET", trying to mean that if one of the proposals is considered better than 12 TET then both intonations could work optionally . Since some members of the list proposed scales with more than 12 tones per octave, they know that their proposals have the same function. Should the improvement occurrs, the new scale would have replaced 12 TET partially.

He wrote:
"If we have more tones, we have more possibilities for melody and harmony".

-- I think that the more we increase the number of tones, harmony becomes more dispersed like if we add three or four different flavors to the classic and original peruvian "pisco sour", despite the combined taste is acceptable, the good taster has lost its classical formula. I had to write "peruvian" because Chile, Perú´s neighbor has patented the trade mark "Pisco sour" and Pisco is the name of a peruvian city as well as "Pisco sour" is a popular drink over the centuries.

However, the research on expanded number of tones is justified, hope that researchers detect what they want.

-- Carl informed that scales with a less number of tones are also studied. In South América, the Incas, see Macchu Picchu, established the pentaphonic scale, five tones.
I listened some works played on one or two tied rows of single tone "quenas" ( a sort of indian flutes), it gives peculiar melody expressions.

Thanks Daniel and Carl.

Mario

Lima, April 20, 2010
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Who said this? Did I miss something?
In my opinion it doesn't need to be replaced, why. But because
chromatic system became a base of western music culture, it was
enough used in the historical music of many styles until now and
microtonality is one of possible future ways how to develop music. If
we have more tones, we have more possibilities for melody and
harmony. Increasing the quantity can be reflected also in increase in
quality (hopefully), and for sure some new esthetics will come from
it. But it needs also educated music consumers with sensitive ears,
hungry for new listening experience. Unfortunately development of the
most of musical culture goes in opposite way, to more primitive and
simple structures, so I don't think this can be changed soon... We
can't expect that people who are unable to listen and enjoy to
Mozart, Debussy, Stravinski or Xenakis, or even jazz (thanks to bad
education system and their own laziness to study more about music),
will be too enthusiastic to listen contemporary work with 55 or 123
notes in octave.

Just a note: don't forget in this connection also scales or tuning
systems with less notes then 12 in octave, as well as other systems
which don't use octave as ambitus.

Daniel Forro

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Mario Pizarro wrote on Tue Apr 20, 2010 :

> -- Carl informed that scales with a less number of tones are also
> studied. In South América, the Incas, see Macchu Picchu,
> established the pentaphonic scale, five tones.> I listened some works played on one or two tied rows of single tone
> "quenas" ( a sort of indian flutes), it gives peculiar melody
> expressions.
>
> Thanks Daniel and Carl.
>
> Mario

Hi Mario,

Do you know about any works, or have you any remarks yourself about
the tuning of such pentatonic or other Incas scales, apart from being
anhemitonic (without semitones) ?

>> (Daniel Forro) :
>> "If we have more tones, we have more possibilities for melody and
>> harmony".
>
>
> -- I think that the more we increase the number of tones, harmony
> becomes more dispersed like if we add three or four different
> flavors to the classic and original peruvian "pisco sour", despite
> the combined taste is acceptable, the good taster has lost its
> classical formula. I had to write "peruvian" because Chile, Perú´s
> neighbor has patented the trade mark "Pisco sour" and Pisco is the
> name of a peruvian city as well as "Pisco sour" is a popular drink
> over the centuries.

I think I agree with Daniel, among other reasons because naturally
consonant models, even for the simplest scales, show that notes we
think as single, are in fact double on the level of harmony. So
restoring these double notes polarities adds possibilities of expression, not only melodically but also because in most cases, the
choice of one polarity or the other changes the favoured modes of a
scale, and therefore their emotional content.
But double tones have the problem to add complexity in some of the
instruments manufacture, as well as in the musical practice, and I
believe that the use of temperament came mainly because of these two
problems.
In the end a scale, like a drink or other cultural objects, is also
part of a geographic and/or ethnic identity, and it's not rare to see
that different neighbouring countries or even villages use slighthly
different versions of the same scales, thus marking their preferences
as you said, for one "classical formula" over another.
What's your receipe of the peruvian Pisco sour BTW ? how many drops
of Amargo de Angostura for one glass ? ;)

- - - - - - -
Jacques