locking & high thirds

I began preparing for this post by looking for recordings that illustrated
the points I have been talking about here, but found little that was
significant. I bought the barbershop album that was recommended here last
month, but the tuning was not consistent. When I went back to albums that
had previously caught my ear, I found similar inconsistency. The one artist
that exhibited the consistency I sought is the lady I have mentioned here
occasionally, Sheila Chandra. I extracted a portion of one of her albums to
share with you. The file is an mp3 and is fairly large (almost 3 megs), but
I wanted to include sufficient repetitions of the motives to show her
consistency and also to keep the recording quality high. The URL is
<http://home.earthlink.net/~stg3music/Sheila.mp3>

Note that the initial repeated pitch appears to be the "low" third (4:5?);
however when the melody moves up to the fifth and then descends scalewise to
the "same" pitch, her tuning appears to be the "high third." I tested this
with a keyboard that was in tune with the tonic drone by playing the
keyboard's third immediately after each of these "thirds." The first is
below piano pitch and the second is above it. Try it yourself.

In the contrasting phrases that follow, the high third is heard in context
with the deliciously low seventh (4:7?). (Incidentally, this interval
beautifully illustrates "my" augmented fourth.) It appears that when Sheila
approaches the third from above, she senses that it locks in at the high
tuning and uses it there with consistency. When she begins a phrase with the
third, she apparently opts for the JI third.

Lacking more examples from the "literature," I decided to review some
recordings where I _knew I could find examples--namely, mine. Looking back
on the weeks of dialogue here, it seems that it might have been helpful to
have posted these sounds at the beginning. However, at that point it would
have been inappropriate to walk in with a pack of my own product under my
arm, appearing to be pushing my own stuff. My feeling now is that most of
you understand now that my goal was and is simply to learn more about what
causes singers (and other musicians using flexible tuning) to tune the way
they do. So begging your indulgence, here are a few LA Jazz Choir excerpts
that I hope will clarify "where I'm coming from" and why I'm pursuing this
quest.

While reviewing various tracks, I heard this vivid example of the high
third. It's the ending of our recording of "Blue In Green." The URL is
<http://home.earthlink.net/~stg3music/Blue.mp3> and is just over 1 meg.
Notice that the soloist, Vicky McClure, arrives at the last note and appears
to tune it as a "low third," but when the ensemble arrives with the final
tonic chord, she moves it to the "high third."

In the next illustration, you can hear the singers _moving slightly to
improve the "lock" as these sustained chords are held. The URL is <
http://home.earthlink.net/~stg3music/LoveIsAJoy.mp3> Note that the pitches
in these chords are nowhere near piano pitch. If they were, the end product
could not possible lock as vividly as they do here. There is one chord in
which I would have preferred that the sopranos raise the pitch slightly. Can
you tell which chord it is?

Finally, this excerpt of the old standard "Sweet Georgia Brown" contains a
lot of high thirds and low sevenths, most of them on-the-fly, but shows how
extensive training in locked-in singing pays off in vocal blend. The URL is
<http://home.earthlink.net/~stg3music/Georgia.mp3> Note that the piano
accompaniment has no adverse effect on the singers' flexible tuning. (I ask
my accompanists to avoid comping chords in favor of playing licks and
fills.) Because the final vocal chord is sustained for some time, you can
hear the baritones' _internal "high third" as well as the tenors' "high"
major seventh. This may be of interest to some of you who wondered about
these issues.

I hope these audio items are helpful in clarifying why I'm here and what the
focus of my questions are. I also hope you will give me the benefit of your
responses. (Of course you will. This is the Tuning LIst.)

Jerry

Jerry wrote (regarding <http://home.earthlink.net/~stg3music/Sheila.mp3>),

>In the contrasting phrases that follow, the high third is heard in context
>with the deliciously low seventh (4:7?). (Incidentally, this interval
>beautifully illustrates "my" augmented fourth.)

So "your" augmented fourth is _larger_ than 7:10? You sure didn't like that
sort of thing in Monz' I-IV-V7-I example with the V7 with high third and low
seventh.

But I'm positive Chandra's seventh is _way_ higher than a 4:7. Try a
keyboard comparison (your synthesizer's approximation of 969� will suffice
to prove my point), or perhaps someone can perform an analysis.

(on <http://home.earthlink.net/~stg3music/Blue.mp3>)
>Notice that the soloist, Vicky McClure, arrives at the last note and
appears
>to tune it as a "low third," but when the ensemble arrives with the final
>tonic chord, she moves it to the "high third."

I don't hear this at all and in fact the last note appears to be a major
seventh, not a third, over the tonic (maybe I'm hearing a phantom root).

I wrote (regarding <http://home.earthlink.net/~stg3music/Sheila.mp3>),
>
>>In the contrasting phrases that follow, the high third is heard in context
>>with the deliciously low seventh (4:7?). (Incidentally, this interval
>>beautifully illustrates "my" augmented fourth.)

And Paul Erlich responded:
>
> So "your" augmented fourth is _larger_ than 7:10?

I didn't actually measure it. It just sounds appropriately tuned. Actually,
it's not a functional tritone so its "tendency" isn't relevant.

> You sure didn't like that
> sort of thing in Monz' I-IV-V7-I example with the V7 with high third and low
> seventh.

As you have said, context is everything. :-) Perhaps the difference is in
_how high and _how low.
>
> But I'm positive Chandra's seventh is _way_ higher than a 4:7. Try a
> keyboard comparison (your synthesizer's approximation of 969� will suffice
> to prove my point), or perhaps someone can perform an analysis.

And I'm positive Chandra's seventh is _way lower than 12-tET. It was the
first thing I noticed when I first played it. Again, I haven't measured it.
I assumed it to be a 4:7 because it sure wasn't a keyboard tuning.
Furthermore, she tunes it that way consistently throughout the song. Also,
it sounds exactly like the "low" seventh all through my Indian music
recordings. Why would it not be a 4:7?
>
> (on <http://home.earthlink.net/~stg3music/Blue.mp3>)
>>Notice that the soloist, Vicky McClure, arrives at the last note and
> appears
>>to tune it as a "low third," but when the ensemble arrives with the final
>>tonic chord, she moves it to the "high third."
>
> I don't hear this at all and in fact the last note appears to be a major
> seventh, not a third, over the tonic (maybe I'm hearing a phantom root).
>
Listen again, Paul. Her last note is a third, both in the context of the
song as a whole and within the final tonic chord. Sing along with her and
you'll hear (and feel) her pitch change just as the tonic chord arrives.

Jerry