[tuning] Drei Equale tuning competition update

Hi all,

It's spring :)
That means not only good weather in the northern hemisphere but also the end
of the entry period of the €100.- Drei Equale tuning competition.

I've not received any new entries lately though.
I know several people have been working on an entry, but have apparently
either failed to produce a good sounding result, or need more time?
I'll be working for at least a week (more likely 2) on rendering the
entries, so if anybody wants to submit a late entry there is still a chance.
If so, please do let me know as soon as you can that you still have one in
the works.

As for rendering the entries and why it's going to take me that much time.
Well, I've decided to not only render all entries with a trombone soundfont
(the one I've been using up till now) and an organ soundfont.
But also by retuning a real trombone quartet performance with melodyne
editor :)
It'll be a lot of work (especially since my editor crashes every few minutes
and half of the time when trying to save something) but the results will be
worth it I hope.

If anybody also wishes to do another impartial rendering (with for instance
saw waves) of the entries please let me know and I'll send you the midi
files.

Btw I just recently caught an error in the 12tet base midi file. It has one
note wrong (an error in both the piano score and internet midi file I once
downloaded and someohow missed when reading the original trombone score).
The correct base midi file is on www.develde.net now.
I'm also sending an email to the people who've submitted an entry to ask if
they're ok with my correction (which is an easy correction as it's a
repetition of an earlyer chord which doesn't have the error so it shouldn't
matter at all tuning wise)

Btw I've only just finished my own version today!
Less than a week ago I had some deeper understanding on a part of my JI
theory which allowed me to finish it.
I'm submitting my own entry blind (or deaf may be a better word).
That is, I'm submitting it without having heard it myself.
I'll be real carefull in rendering it correctly as I won't be able to hear
any rendering mistakes, and I won't listen to it untill it's posted online
with all the other entries (and all will have random filenames).

Marcel

I could not resist and had a listen to my own entry I had planned on
entering blind.

I planned on entering it blind as a way of showing the correctness of my
theory which is now so advanced I can tune music perfectly without
listening.
But the temptation to hear perfectly in tune music was to big :)
Also I figured that even though I was very certain of my tuning beeing 100%
correct, in the remote case I was not, I did not want to give a lame excuse
after the competition that I had not heard my own entry.

So I listened to it, and it's 100% perfect :)

As for the competition.
I must say I'm very dissapointed by the lack of entries.
There are only 2 entries, and neither have been made especially for the
competition.
I don't get it.
It's a short piece. A lot of people here have opinions about which tuning
system works best for common practice music etc.
And you win 100 euro if your entry is voted the best.
And surely most people on this list would love to see me lose this.
Especially since if I win this I will have even more weight when making
statement on perfect tuning and wolfs beeing correct in certain conditions,
statements people have held against me in the past.

Since melodyne editor is giving me a lot of trouble and it will take me some
time to render all the entries + 12tet and a few other standards, by
retuning a real trombone quartet. And I'm also still looking for the best
way to render the pieces with an electronic sawwave like sound (may go
csound)
There's still time for others to submit entries.
Infact if you'll let me know you're working on one I'll be happy to delay
the voting, as I see more entries as important.
So for all those who had big mouths and outspoken ideas against my "crazy"
tuning ideas, here's one last chance to put your words into tuning!
Tune Drei Equale better than me and other entries (better than the 2 other
entries won't be very hard in my opinion as they don't sound very good to my
ears atleast) and you'll not only win 100 euro but will also shut me up ;)
The base midi file is at www.develde.net

For those that somehow have some belief left in my tuning, and can't wait to
hear it, send me an email and I'll send you my tuning of the piece offlist
and you can for the first time in your life hear music of this complexity
perfectly in tune :)

Marcel

On 21 March 2010 01:10, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> It's spring :)
> That means not only good weather in the northern hemisphere but also the
> end of the entry period of the €100.- Drei Equale tuning competition.
>
> I've not received any new entries lately though.
> I know several people have been working on an entry, but have apparently
> either failed to produce a good sounding result, or need more time?
> I'll be working for at least a week (more likely 2) on rendering the
> entries, so if anybody wants to submit a late entry there is still a chance.
> If so, please do let me know as soon as you can that you still have one in
> the works.
>
> As for rendering the entries and why it's going to take me that much time.
> Well, I've decided to not only render all entries with a trombone soundfont
> (the one I've been using up till now) and an organ soundfont.
> But also by retuning a real trombone quartet performance with melodyne
> editor :)
> It'll be a lot of work (especially since my editor crashes every few
> minutes and half of the time when trying to save something) but the results
> will be worth it I hope.
>
> If anybody also wishes to do another impartial rendering (with for instance
> saw waves) of the entries please let me know and I'll send you the midi
> files.
>
> Btw I just recently caught an error in the 12tet base midi file. It has one
> note wrong (an error in both the piano score and internet midi file I once
> downloaded and someohow missed when reading the original trombone score).
> The correct base midi file is on www.develde.net now.
> I'm also sending an email to the people who've submitted an entry to ask if
> they're ok with my correction (which is an easy correction as it's a
> repetition of an earlyer chord which doesn't have the error so it shouldn't
> matter at all tuning wise)
>
> Btw I've only just finished my own version today!
> Less than a week ago I had some deeper understanding on a part of my JI
> theory which allowed me to finish it.
> I'm submitting my own entry blind (or deaf may be a better word).
> That is, I'm submitting it without having heard it myself.
> I'll be real carefull in rendering it correctly as I won't be able to hear
> any rendering mistakes, and I won't listen to it untill it's posted online
> with all the other entries (and all will have random filenames).
>
> Marcel
>
>
>
>

>"As for the competition. I must say I'm very dissapointed by the lack of entries.
There are only 2 entries, and neither have been made especially for the competition."

Contests are always tough to run and thank you for giving it your best shot. I'll tell you this much...I tried Drei Equale in a few of my tunings and they (no offense to myself) sounded either completely different and not loyal to the original mood (IE squeezed into a 7-tone tuning) or just plain confusing in mood or downright unresolved/"dissonant" plus confusing in mood. The whole song structure seems to almost force use of a tuning that mimics 12TET to retain its composure.

The real problem here I believe is you really need at least 12 fairly notes available for this song to retain its mood and anything too far from 12TET begins to mangle the original mood tremendously "even" if it sounds very consonant. From what I tried goes with plugging in things like Magic temperaments and even very JI-compliant MOS scales.

Anyhow, here's an "entry" of sorts done in my latest modified Ptolemy-based 7-tone scale (humorously titled "Neit Equale"...that really does not mimic the original at all but instead produces a rather weird kind of consonance IMVHO. If by odd fortune I win I have no need for the Euros...however I would like your services in lobbying to get a professional composer to write an orchestral ("even" if only done with synths) piece with my scale (much for my own amusement and hopefully for the general expansion of the use of micro-tonallity).

-Michael

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> I don't get it.

Exactly.

A question again - how are you retuning everything exactly? I'll roll
something out but I have no idea how you're tuning stuff. You said you're
using scala sequence files? I don't get it.

-Mike

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>wrote:

>
>
> I could not resist and had a listen to my own entry I had planned on
> entering blind.
>
> I planned on entering it blind as a way of showing the correctness of my
> theory which is now so advanced I can tune music perfectly without
> listening.
> But the temptation to hear perfectly in tune music was to big :)
> Also I figured that even though I was very certain of my tuning beeing 100%
> correct, in the remote case I was not, I did not want to give a lame excuse
> after the competition that I had not heard my own entry.
>
> So I listened to it, and it's 100% perfect :)
>
> As for the competition.
> I must say I'm very dissapointed by the lack of entries.
> There are only 2 entries, and neither have been made especially for the
> competition.
> I don't get it.
> It's a short piece. A lot of people here have opinions about which tuning
> system works best for common practice music etc.
> And you win 100 euro if your entry is voted the best.
> And surely most people on this list would love to see me lose this.
> Especially since if I win this I will have even more weight when making
> statement on perfect tuning and wolfs beeing correct in certain conditions,
> statements people have held against me in the past.
>
> Since melodyne editor is giving me a lot of trouble and it will take me
> some time to render all the entries + 12tet and a few other standards, by
> retuning a real trombone quartet. And I'm also still looking for the best
> way to render the pieces with an electronic sawwave like sound (may go
> csound)
> There's still time for others to submit entries.
> Infact if you'll let me know you're working on one I'll be happy to delay
> the voting, as I see more entries as important.
> So for all those who had big mouths and outspoken ideas against my "crazy"
> tuning ideas, here's one last chance to put your words into tuning!
> Tune Drei Equale better than me and other entries (better than the 2 other
> entries won't be very hard in my opinion as they don't sound very good to my
> ears atleast) and you'll not only win 100 euro but will also shut me up ;)
> The base midi file is at www.develde.net
>
> For those that somehow have some belief left in my tuning, and can't wait
> to hear it, send me an email and I'll send you my tuning of the piece
> offlist and you can for the first time in your life hear music of this
> complexity perfectly in tune :)
>
> Marcel
>
>
>
>
> On 21 March 2010 01:10, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> It's spring :)
>> That means not only good weather in the northern hemisphere but also the
>> end of the entry period of the €100.- Drei Equale tuning competition.
>>
>> I've not received any new entries lately though.
>> I know several people have been working on an entry, but have apparently
>> either failed to produce a good sounding result, or need more time?
>> I'll be working for at least a week (more likely 2) on rendering the
>> entries, so if anybody wants to submit a late entry there is still a chance.
>> If so, please do let me know as soon as you can that you still have one in
>> the works.
>>
>> As for rendering the entries and why it's going to take me that much time.
>> Well, I've decided to not only render all entries with a trombone
>> soundfont (the one I've been using up till now) and an organ soundfont.
>> But also by retuning a real trombone quartet performance with melodyne
>> editor :)
>> It'll be a lot of work (especially since my editor crashes every few
>> minutes and half of the time when trying to save something) but the results
>> will be worth it I hope.
>>
>> If anybody also wishes to do another impartial rendering (with for
>> instance saw waves) of the entries please let me know and I'll send you the
>> midi files.
>>
>> Btw I just recently caught an error in the 12tet base midi file. It has
>> one note wrong (an error in both the piano score and internet midi file I
>> once downloaded and someohow missed when reading the original trombone
>> score).
>> The correct base midi file is on www.develde.net now.
>> I'm also sending an email to the people who've submitted an entry to ask
>> if they're ok with my correction (which is an easy correction as it's a
>> repetition of an earlyer chord which doesn't have the error so it shouldn't
>> matter at all tuning wise)
>>
>> Btw I've only just finished my own version today!
>> Less than a week ago I had some deeper understanding on a part of my JI
>> theory which allowed me to finish it.
>> I'm submitting my own entry blind (or deaf may be a better word).
>> That is, I'm submitting it without having heard it myself.
>> I'll be real carefull in rendering it correctly as I won't be able to hear
>> any rendering mistakes, and I won't listen to it untill it's posted online
>> with all the other entries (and all will have random filenames).
>>
>> Marcel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

>"As for the competition. I must say I'm very dissapointed by the lack of entries.

There are only 2 entries, and neither have been made especially for the competition."

Contests are always tough to run and thank you, Marcel, for giving it your best shot. I'll tell you this much...I tried Drei Equale in a few of my tunings and they (no offense to myself) sounded either completely different and not loyal to the original mood (IE squeezed into a 7-tone tuning) or just plain confusing in mood or downright unresolved/"dissonant" plus confusing in mood. The whole song structure seems to almost force use of a tuning that mimics 12TET to retain its composure.

The real problem here I believe is you really need at least 12 fairly notes available for this song to retain its mood and anything too far from 12TET begins to mangle the original mood tremendously "even" if it sounds very consonant. From what I tried goes with plugging in things like Magic temperaments and even very JI-compliant MOS scales.

Anyhow, here's an "entry" of sorts done in my latest modified Ptolemy-based 7-tone scale (humorously titled "Neit Equale"...that really does not mimic the original at all but instead produces a rather weird kind of consonance IMVHO. If by odd fortune I win I have no need for the Euros...however I would like your services in lobbying to get a professional composer to write an orchestral ("even" if only done with synths) piece with my scale (much for my own amusement and hopefully for the general expansion of the use of micro-tonallity).

-Michael

Looks like my last posting on this topic was double-posted after the first copy was delayed in delivery by Yahoo...my apologies.

Hi Michael,

> Contests are always tough to run and thank you for giving it your best
> shot. I'll tell you this much...I tried Drei Equale in a few of my tunings
> and they (no offense to myself) sounded either completely different and not
> loyal to the original mood (IE squeezed into a 7-tone tuning) or just plain
> confusing in mood or downright unresolved/"dissonant" plus confusing in
> mood. The whole song structure seems to almost force use of a tuning that
> mimics 12TET to retain its composure.
>
> The real problem here I believe is you really need at least 12 fairly
> notes available for this song to retain its mood and anything too far from
> 12TET begins to mangle the original mood tremendously "even" if it sounds
> very consonant. From what I tried goes with plugging in things like Magic
> temperaments and even very JI-compliant MOS scales.
>
> Anyhow, here's an "entry" of sorts done in my latest modified
> Ptolemy-based 7-tone scale (humorously titled "Neit Equale"...that really
> does not mimic the original at all but instead produces a rather weird kind
> of consonance IMVHO. If by odd fortune I win I have no need for the
> Euros...however I would like your services in lobbying to get a professional
> composer to write an orchestral ("even" if only done with synths) piece with
> my scale (much for my own amusement and hopefully for the general expansion
> of the use of micro-tonallity).
>
> -Michael
>

Thanks for your entry and I enjoyed very much listening to it :)
But it's indeed nothing like the original.
I don't really see it as fitting in this competition. As this competition is
about tuning the drei equale as much "in tune" as possible.
"in tune" beeing not defined, and is something that's very hard to define
(but I will try to do so somewhere in the future), but I do hope it's
something that atleast our ears / brain posesses. And that the voting
process will bring forth the most "in tune" and truthfull tuning of the drei
equale.

Your tuning is more a creative interpretation. So I'm glad you made it and
enjoyed it.
But unless someone (including you) objects (in which case we can discuss it
further) I don't see it as right to accept it as an entry for this
competition.
If you're ok with it, I will put it online with all other tunings later once
voting is over.

Btw, for competition entries, It's best to submit them in either pitch bent
midi file, exactly like the midi file on www.develde.net with the only
difference that there are pitch bend messages on all 4 channels to bend the
notes.
And that the starting F note is at thesame frequency as in the 12tet file (
349.2282 hertz).
This way I can render all files equally.
Further, it's a choice of the person submitting the entry, but it can be
submitted to my email personally without posting on this list. As all
entries will get random filenames when voting starts so the tunings will be
anonymous.

Marcel

Hi Mike,

> A question again - how are you retuning everything exactly? I'll roll
> something out but I have no idea how you're tuning stuff. You said you're
> using scala sequence files? I don't get it.
>
> -Mike
>
I'm going to write a tutorial on the different ways to retune a midi file by
Scala.
I hope to finish it later today, otherwise it will be tomorrow.
Will post here once finished!

Marcel

>"Your tuning is more a creative interpretation. So I'm glad you made it
and enjoyed it.
But unless someone (including you) objects (in which
case we can discuss it further) I don't see it as right to accept it as
an entry for this competition."
..which is what I pretty much predicted. I really put it up there mostly as a response to the question "why are so few people entering?"...and my conclusion was virtually no tunings that do not both have all notes very close to 12TET and contain all 12 notes will work to make it sound "like Beethoven intended". Feel free to post the mp3 after the competition if you want, though.

I guess you could say on one hand, good luck with your compo but on the other, maybe it would help to make a tuning goal that's not so restrictive as matching the mood of the original song very closely, as such a goal doesn't seem to leave much room for variation (not just for my own tunings, but virtually any tuning).

> ..which is what I pretty much predicted. I really put it up there mostly
> as a response to the question "why are so few people entering?"
>

Yes I understood. And thanks for sending it in :)

> ...and my conclusion was virtually no tunings that do not both have all
> notes very close to 12TET and contain all 12 notes will work to make it
> sound "like Beethoven intended". Feel free to post the mp3 after the
> competition if you want, though.
>

Ok thanks.

>
> I guess you could say on one hand, good luck with your compo but on the
> other, maybe it would help to make a tuning goal that's not so restrictive
> as matching the mood of the original song very closely, as such a goal
> doesn't seem to leave much room for variation (not just for my own tunings,
> but virtually any tuning).
>

Well I was thinking that there are many temperaments / meantones, lucytuning
etc that should/could do a slightly better job than 12tet.
There's adaptive JI.
Extended JI.
And there are many different opinions how to handle comma problems in
5-limit JI etc.
Theories abound on this list. I was hoping this competition would be a good
show for all these different tuning ideas.

Marcel

Ok I've written the tutorial on retuning 12tet midi files to produce pitch
bend midi files using Scala.
You can read it here: Scala retuning
tutorial<http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/Home/scala-retuning-tutorial>

I've also written down the tuning contest rules here: Drei Equale retuning
competition<http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/Home/drei-equale-tuning-competition>

And I was planning on entering my own entry to the competition without
having posted it online before that.
But since the competition is going to take a bit longer before voting will
start and I can't wait to show it, and I somehow think it's also fair to let
people know what they're up against (I'm not planning on loosing 100 euro
;), I've decided to post my own entry now. (it'll still get a random file
name when the voting starts like the other entries)

Here is the mp3:
Drei_Equale_No1_(MdV-JI)_SfTromb.mp3<http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/Drei_Equale_No1_%28MdV-JI%29_SfTromb.mp3?attredirects=0>

And here is the score with JI ratios above the notes:
Drei_Equale_No1_(MdV-JI).png<http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/Drei_Equale_No1_%28MdV-JI%29.png?attredirects=0>
(worth looking at I think as it looks great :)

The 12tet for comparison and the midi and seq files are also online at
www.develde.net

Marcel

On 25 March 2010 17:08, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> A question again - how are you retuning everything exactly? I'll roll
>> something out but I have no idea how you're tuning stuff. You said you're
>> using scala sequence files? I don't get it.
>>
>> -Mike
>>
> I'm going to write a tutorial on the different ways to retune a midi file
> by Scala.
> I hope to finish it later today, otherwise it will be tomorrow.
> Will post here once finished!
>
> Marcel
>

Hey Marcel,

hasn't Carl said something about "not allowing html content on this list"?
I think you could happily post the links in regular plain text format.

Petr

Is it possible to retune tied notes while they are playing with Scala?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> Ok I've written the tutorial on retuning 12tet midi files to produce pitch
> bend midi files using Scala.
> You can read it here: Scala retuning
> tutorial<http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/Home/scala-retuning-tutorial>
>
> I've also written down the tuning contest rules here: Drei Equale retuning
> competition<http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/Home/drei-equale-tuning-competition>
>
>
> And I was planning on entering my own entry to the competition without
> having posted it online before that.
> But since the competition is going to take a bit longer before voting will
> start and I can't wait to show it, and I somehow think it's also fair to let
> people know what they're up against (I'm not planning on loosing 100 euro
> ;), I've decided to post my own entry now. (it'll still get a random file
> name when the voting starts like the other entries)
>
> Here is the mp3:
> Drei_Equale_No1_(MdV-JI)_SfTromb.mp3<http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/Drei_Equale_No1_%28MdV-JI%29_SfTromb.mp3?attredirects=0>
>
> And here is the score with JI ratios above the notes:
> Drei_Equale_No1_(MdV-JI).png<http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/Drei_Equale_No1_%28MdV-JI%29.png?attredirects=0>
> (worth looking at I think as it looks great :)
>
> The 12tet for comparison and the midi and seq files are also online at
> www.develde.net
>
>
> Marcel
>
>
> On 25 March 2010 17:08, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > A question again - how are you retuning everything exactly? I'll roll
> >> something out but I have no idea how you're tuning stuff. You said you're
> >> using scala sequence files? I don't get it.
> >>
> >> -Mike
> >>
> > I'm going to write a tutorial on the different ways to retune a midi file
> > by Scala.
> > I hope to finish it later today, otherwise it will be tomorrow.
> > Will post here once finished!
> >
> > Marcel
> >
>

Hi Petr,

Hey Marcel,
>
> hasn't Carl said something about "not allowing html content on this list"?
> I think you could happily post the links in regular plain text format.
>
> Petr
>

I wasn't aware of this.
Does this also go for text formatting like making a portion of the text bold
or bigger / smaller etc?
And I think my email sends out html email by default? I see certain
formatting in the way text is quoted.
I'll be happy to comply I'm just not sure how much I'm not conplying at the
moment.

Btw have you received my offlist email to confirm the one changed note in
the drei equale?

Marcel

Hi Kalle,

Is it possible to retune tied notes while they are playing with Scala?
>

I'm not sure on how to do that.
Perhaps you could write them as 2 seperate notes in the scala sequence file.
And then later edit the pitch bend midi file in a midi editor like cubase
and tie the 2 notes together again.
The 2 pitchbend messages will then still be there and will retune the note
again while it's held at the right time.

Marcel

Marcel wrote:

> And I think my email sends out html email by default? I see certain
> formatting in the way text is quoted.

Not sure how your webmail interface deals with formatting. Personally, although I've worked with various email accounts, only once or twice in my life have I actually written a message on some webmail-like pages. I usually use some software that allows me to manage my account via pop3 (so far I've never found an email interface which couldn't be controled this way). Within these programs, you can choose whether you want to send replies in the same format as the message you're repliing to (i.e. to reply with html if someone sends you html) and also what format you want to use for your own messages. I would be very surprised if these settings weren't also available on the webmail pages, supposing you're writing email via your web browser.

Although I've used html a few times in the past, I'm now feeling actually more comfortable with plain text so I've changed the setting in my MSOE.

Petr

> I would be very surprised if these settings weren't also available on the
> webmail pages, supposing you're writing email via your web browser.

Yes web interface indeed, and found the button.
Big button saying plain text. Never noticed it.
Ok, plain text messages from me from here on out.

Marcel

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <p.parizek@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Marcel,
> hasn't Carl said something about "not allowing html content on
> this list"? I think you could happily post the links in regular
> plain text format.
> Petr

It's not that it's not allowed, it just doesn't display well
for many readers. Plain-text links are clickable in almost
all e-mail clients (and on Yahoo's website). -Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> Does this also go for text formatting like making a portion of the
> text bold or bigger / smaller etc?

That is usually accomplished with html (in gmail for instance).

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> And I think my email sends out html email by default? I see certain
> formatting in the way text is quoted.

These days many e-mail clients send HTML by default. There is
usually a setting to change this. In gmail, it's the "plain text"
link to the right of the formatting buttons.

Quotes that appear with a gray bar to the left (instead of
angle brackets) may not be HTML. There is something called
quoted printable, which e-mail clients often render in a
fancy way, which works with plain text mail. Unfortunately,
Yahoo's website doesn't seem to support quoted printable,
hence, we are often dealing with angle brackets.

-Carl

> Quotes that appear with a gray bar to the left (instead of
> angle brackets) may not be HTML. There is something called
> quoted printable, which e-mail clients often render in a
> fancy way, which works with plain text mail. Unfortunately,
> Yahoo's website doesn't seem to support quoted printable,
> hence, we are often dealing with angle brackets.
>

Thanks for the answers!
And glad I can keep using my fancy quotes, I like them :)

Marcel