a harmony question

Yes this is about 12 tet - but I don't know where else to turn and most of the tuning people are expert in 12 tet

this chord

d g (middle c for reference) b flat g

sounds decidedly dissonant - I suspect its related to Stravisky's Psalms chord but I haven't looked it up yet.

Now... if you

make the b flat a b it sounds pretty

if drop the b flat an octave (b flat below middle c) it sounds fine.

Does any one have anything observations?

Just a quick note before replying more in depth later- that is a g minor chord in the second inversion, "6-4". If you google, say, "cadential six four chord" you should be able to quickly find some historical background on the second inversion.

As to why it sound pretty to you in major and dissonant in minor...

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "christopherv" <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Yes this is about 12 tet - but I don't know where else to turn and most of the tuning people are expert in 12 tet
>
> this chord
>
> d g (middle c for reference) b flat g
>
> sounds decidedly dissonant - I suspect its related to Stravisky's Psalms chord but I haven't looked it up yet.
>
> Now... if you
>
> make the b flat a b it sounds pretty
>
>
> if drop the b flat an octave (b flat below middle c) it sounds fine.
>
> Does any one have anything observations?
>

One observation it seems to be the octave that the b flat is in that makes
the difference.

So its more than just minor vs major

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:59 PM, cameron <misterbobro@...> wrote:

>
>
> Just a quick note before replying more in depth later- that is a g minor
> chord in the second inversion, "6-4". If you google, say, "cadential six
> four chord" you should be able to quickly find some historical background on
> the second inversion.
>
> As to why it sound pretty to you in major and dissonant in minor...
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, "christopherv"
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > Yes this is about 12 tet - but I don't know where else to turn and most
> of the tuning people are expert in 12 tet
> >
> > this chord
> >
> > d g (middle c for reference) b flat g
> >
> > sounds decidedly dissonant - I suspect its related to Stravisky's Psalms
> chord but I haven't looked it up yet.
> >
> > Now... if you
> >
> > make the b flat a b it sounds pretty
> >
> >
> > if drop the b flat an octave (b flat below middle c) it sounds fine.
> >
> > Does any one have anything observations?
> >
>
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> One observation it seems to be the octave that the b flat is in >that makes
> the difference.
>
> So its more than just minor vs major

??? obviously- why else would I suggest looking up the history
of the 6-4 (in which it is voicing that made the theoretically most consant chord a disonance).

>
> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:59 PM, cameron <misterbobro@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Just a quick note before replying more in depth later- that is a g minor
> > chord in the second inversion, "6-4". If you google, say, "cadential six
> > four chord" you should be able to quickly find some historical background on
> > the second inversion.
> >
> > As to why it sound pretty to you in major and dissonant in minor...
> >
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, "christopherv"
> > <chrisvaisvil@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes this is about 12 tet - but I don't know where else to turn and most
> > of the tuning people are expert in 12 tet
> > >
> > > this chord
> > >
> > > d g (middle c for reference) b flat g
> > >
> > > sounds decidedly dissonant - I suspect its related to Stravisky's Psalms
> > chord but I haven't looked it up yet.
> > >
> > > Now... if you
> > >
> > > make the b flat a b it sounds pretty
> > >
> > >
> > > if drop the b flat an octave (b flat below middle c) it sounds fine.
> > >
> > > Does any one have anything observations?
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

Cameron,

I'm confused then - I didn't think you were indicating the octave
observation.

I'll see if I can find something on the net.

Chris

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 1:41 PM, cameron <misterbobro@...> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > One observation it seems to be the octave that the b flat is in >that
> makes
> > the difference.
> >
> > So its more than just minor vs major
>
> ??? obviously- why else would I suggest looking up the history
> of the 6-4 (in which it is voicing that made the theoretically most consant
> chord a disonance).
>
>
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:59 PM, cameron <misterbobro@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Just a quick note before replying more in depth later- that is a g
> minor
> > > chord in the second inversion, "6-4". If you google, say, "cadential
> six
> > > four chord" you should be able to quickly find some historical
> background on
> > > the second inversion.
> > >
> > > As to why it sound pretty to you in major and dissonant in minor...
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com> <tuning%
> 40yahoogroups.com>, "christopherv"
>
> > > <chrisvaisvil@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes this is about 12 tet - but I don't know where else to turn and
> most
> > > of the tuning people are expert in 12 tet
> > > >
> > > > this chord
> > > >
> > > > d g (middle c for reference) b flat g
> > > >
> > > > sounds decidedly dissonant - I suspect its related to Stravisky's
> Psalms
> > > chord but I haven't looked it up yet.
> > > >
> > > > Now... if you
> > > >
> > > > make the b flat a b it sounds pretty
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > if drop the b flat an octave (b flat below middle c) it sounds fine.
> > > >
> > > > Does any one have anything observations?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>

Hi Cameron,

I looked up the 6 4 - cadential progression and it is not addressing my
observation =
> but I do have a better way to express what I am talking about.

What I am saying is that in the chord I cited the b flat does NOT have
octave equivalence - at least not to my ears using 12 edo in pianoteq.

This is the first time I've noticed anything for which octave equivalence
appeared to be broken.

Chris

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 1:41 PM, cameron <misterbobro@...> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > One observation it seems to be the octave that the b flat is in >that
> makes
> > the difference.
> >
> > So its more than just minor vs major
>
> ??? obviously- why else would I suggest looking up the history
> of the 6-4 (in which it is voicing that made the theoretically most consant
> chord a disonance).
>
>
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:59 PM, cameron <misterbobro@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Just a quick note before replying more in depth later- that is a g
> minor
> > > chord in the second inversion, "6-4". If you google, say, "cadential
> six
> > > four chord" you should be able to quickly find some historical
> background on
> > > the second inversion.
> > >
> > > As to why it sound pretty to you in major and dissonant in minor...
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com> <tuning%
> 40yahoogroups.com>, "christopherv"
>
> > > <chrisvaisvil@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes this is about 12 tet - but I don't know where else to turn and
> most
> > > of the tuning people are expert in 12 tet
> > > >
> > > > this chord
> > > >
> > > > d g (middle c for reference) b flat g
> > > >
> > > > sounds decidedly dissonant - I suspect its related to Stravisky's
> Psalms
> > > chord but I haven't looked it up yet.
> > > >
> > > > Now... if you
> > > >
> > > > make the b flat a b it sounds pretty
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > if drop the b flat an octave (b flat below middle c) it sounds fine.
> > > >
> > > > Does any one have anything observations?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>

This voicing (inverted fifth in the bass) is considered dissonant in common practice tonal music. Common practice tonal music acknowledges that octave equivalence is not absolute, has for centuries. c-g consonant, but drop your g so it is now g-c, and it is dissonant: ergo, octave equivalence is not absolute. Take the whole thing down an octave (the effect is most prominent in low frequencies)and I bet you'll find that it isn't sweetened by raising the third, either- you've still got the inverted fifth in the bass. Drop your third, major or minor, into the bass, and it is a traditional consonant voicing.

I may be misreading your example, it really sucks that we don't have an online notation and sketchpad system built into the forum!

-Cameron

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Cameron,
>
> I looked up the 6 4 - cadential progression and it is not addressing my
> observation =
> > but I do have a better way to express what I am talking about.
>
> What I am saying is that in the chord I cited the b flat does NOT have
> octave equivalence - at least not to my ears using 12 edo in pianoteq.
>
> This is the first time I've noticed anything for which octave equivalence
> appeared to be broken.
>
> Chris
>
> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 1:41 PM, cameron <misterbobro@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> > <chrisvaisvil@> wrote:
> > >
> > > One observation it seems to be the octave that the b flat is in >that
> > makes
> > > the difference.
> > >
> > > So its more than just minor vs major
> >
> > ??? obviously- why else would I suggest looking up the history
> > of the 6-4 (in which it is voicing that made the theoretically most consant
> > chord a disonance).
> >
> >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:59 PM, cameron <misterbobro@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Just a quick note before replying more in depth later- that is a g
> > minor
> > > > chord in the second inversion, "6-4". If you google, say, "cadential
> > six
> > > > four chord" you should be able to quickly find some historical
> > background on
> > > > the second inversion.
> > > >
> > > > As to why it sound pretty to you in major and dissonant in minor...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com> <tuning%
> > 40yahoogroups.com>, "christopherv"
> >
> > > > <chrisvaisvil@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes this is about 12 tet - but I don't know where else to turn and
> > most
> > > > of the tuning people are expert in 12 tet
> > > > >
> > > > > this chord
> > > > >
> > > > > d g (middle c for reference) b flat g
> > > > >
> > > > > sounds decidedly dissonant - I suspect its related to Stravisky's
> > Psalms
> > > > chord but I haven't looked it up yet.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now... if you
> > > > >
> > > > > make the b flat a b it sounds pretty
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > if drop the b flat an octave (b flat below middle c) it sounds fine.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does any one have anything observations?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

Hi Cameron,

My example is here: http://micro.soonlabel.com/12-tet/

both mp3 and the score for what I am playing with pianoteq.

At this point I'm thinking I might be hearing a virtual pitch with the
higher b flat.
I've never heard 4ths as dissonances.

Chris

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:28 PM, cameron <misterbobro@...> wrote:

>
>

For a very big chunk of Western musical history, fourths are considered dissonant depending on context. The easiest way to demonstrate is to play for example g-c-e in the bass range.

In your examples, the major chord sounds more dissonant to me
than the minor. In a strict harmonic view, just dry measuring of coincidence of partials, all the chords you are playing are
technically dissonant.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Cameron,
>
> My example is here: http://micro.soonlabel.com/12-tet/
>
> both mp3 and the score for what I am playing with pianoteq.
>
> At this point I'm thinking I might be hearing a virtual pitch with the
> higher b flat.
> I've never heard 4ths as dissonances.
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:28 PM, cameron <misterbobro@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
>

My ears differ then. Of course I've not been around nearly as long as
western music. As I said 4ths (and often major 2nds) are not dissonant to
me.

Seriously I hear a bright something in my mash up of the psalms chord.
Though I do not think I can relate it to you or perhaps anyone else.

Thanks,

Chris

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 4:15 AM, cameron <misterbobro@...> wrote:

>
>
> For a very big chunk of Western musical history, fourths are considered
> dissonant depending on context. The easiest way to demonstrate is to play
> for example g-c-e in the bass range.
>
> In your examples, the major chord sounds more dissonant to me
> than the minor. In a strict harmonic view, just dry measuring of
> coincidence of partials, all the chords you are playing are
> technically dissonant.
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Cameron,
> >
> > My example is here: http://micro.soonlabel.com/12-tet/
> >
> > both mp3 and the score for what I am playing with pianoteq.
> >
> > At this point I'm thinking I might be hearing a virtual pitch with the
> > higher b flat.
> > I've never heard 4ths as dissonances.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:28 PM, cameron <misterbobro@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> My ears differ then. ...
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 4:15 AM, cameron <misterbobro@...> wrote:
> > For a very big chunk of Western musical history, fourths are considered dissonant depending on context ...
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris
> > > My example is here: http://micro.soonlabel.com/12-tet/

No expert, but my 2p:
I agree with Chris on how they sound (after a very quick check on a 12tET piano). As for an explanation: the bare 4th in the bass would not be very nice, but when the Bb is in the same register perhaps it coalesces sufficiently with the D-G; but when an 8ve higher, it cannot do so. OTOH the B natural being lower in the harmonic series with D and G can do so even at the higher 8ve. (and even in 12tET.)

Hmm, seems a bit vague now I've written it. Did you say you have tried it in JI? With and without the high G?

Steve.

I'm not sure how I'd go about trying it in JI.

Where is Marcel when you need him?

Chris

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:13 AM, martinsj013 <martinsj@lycos.com> wrote:

>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> > My ears differ then. ...
> > On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 4:15 AM, cameron <misterbobro@...> wrote:
> > > For a very big chunk of Western musical history, fourths are considered
> dissonant depending on context ...
>
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com> <tuning%
> 40yahoogroups.com>, Chris
> > > > My example is here: http://micro.soonlabel.com/12-tet/
>
> No expert, but my 2p:
> I agree with Chris on how they sound (after a very quick check on a 12tET
> piano). As for an explanation: the bare 4th in the bass would not be very
> nice, but when the Bb is in the same register perhaps it coalesces
> sufficiently with the D-G; but when an 8ve higher, it cannot do so. OTOH the
> B natural being lower in the harmonic series with D and G can do so even at
> the higher 8ve. (and even in 12tET.)
>
> Hmm, seems a bit vague now I've written it. Did you say you have tried it
> in JI? With and without the high G?
>
> Steve.
>
>
>

Well 12-tET has dissonant thirds, they are quite bright and jangly. So I don't understand why there would be a mystery about bright jangly sonorities sounding bright and jangly.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> My ears differ then. Of course I've not been around nearly as long as
> western music. As I said 4ths (and often major 2nds) are not dissonant to
> me.
>
> Seriously I hear a bright something in my mash up of the psalms chord.
> Though I do not think I can relate it to you or perhaps anyone else.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 4:15 AM, cameron <misterbobro@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > For a very big chunk of Western musical history, fourths are considered
> > dissonant depending on context. The easiest way to demonstrate is to play
> > for example g-c-e in the bass range.
> >
> > In your examples, the major chord sounds more dissonant to me
> > than the minor. In a strict harmonic view, just dry measuring of
> > coincidence of partials, all the chords you are playing are
> > technically dissonant.
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> > <chrisvaisvil@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Cameron,
> > >
> > > My example is here: http://micro.soonlabel.com/12-tet/
> > >
> > > both mp3 and the score for what I am playing with pianoteq.
> > >
> > > At this point I'm thinking I might be hearing a virtual pitch with the
> > > higher b flat.
> > > I've never heard 4ths as dissonances.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:28 PM, cameron <misterbobro@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

Minor thirds bright and jangly?
With all due respect did you listen to the example I posted?

On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 3:03 AM, cameron <misterbobro@...> wrote:

>
>
> Well 12-tET has dissonant thirds, they are quite bright and jangly. So I
> don't understand why there would be a mystery about bright jangly sonorities
> sounding bright and jangly.
>
> -
>