Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Icicle Caverns: My first study in 11-tone equal temperament

Hello everyone,

I present my first musical work in 11-tone equal temperament: "Icicle
Caverns". It is a chilly, electronic ambiance music exceeding 5
minutes with intense orchestral elements including a 4-part canon at the mid section.

All the sounds are tuned to the tones of 11 equal division of the
octave by a special microtonal soundfont synthesizer called SCORDATURA
by H-Pi Instruments. Audio stream was captured into Logic Pro via Jack
Audio. Effects were added by me in Logic.

Please click:

http://www.ozanyarman.com/muzikler.html

You can download the score from the same link. If the flash player
doesn't work for you, try:

http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/music/Icicle_Caverns.mp3

Inspiration for this music came to me when Istanbul was covered with
snow a few days back. It could be an ambiant theme music for a
computer role-playing game in an ice world perhaps? Comments welcome!

Cordially,
Dr. Ozan Yarman

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

🔗Petr Pařízek <p.parizek@...>

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

Say Ozan that is lovely! Very fairy-tale like and pretty.

I think it is a mistake to call 11 equal divisions of the octave a "temperament" though. Rather, it is a tuning.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> I present my first musical work in 11-tone equal temperament: "Icicle
> Caverns". It is a chilly, electronic ambiance music exceeding 5
> minutes with intense orchestral elements including a 4-part canon at
> the mid section.
>
> All the sounds are tuned to the tones of 11 equal division of the
> octave by a special microtonal soundfont synthesizer called SCORDATURA
> by H-Pi Instruments. Audio stream was captured into Logic Pro via Jack
> Audio. Effects were added by me in Logic.
>
> Please click:
>
> http://www.ozanyarman.com/muzikler.html
>
> You can download the score from the same link. If the flash player
> doesn't work for you, try:
>
> http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/music/Icicle_Caverns.mp3
>
> Inspiration for this music came to me when Istanbul was covered with
> snow a few days back. It could be an ambiant theme music for a
> computer role-playing game in an ice world perhaps? Comments welcome!
>
> Cordially,
> Dr. Ozan Yarman
>
> âo?=© âa&3;© âo?=©
> www.ozanyarman.com
>

🔗caleb morgan <calebmrgn@...>

I really enjoyed that.

Delicate icicles. Descending "6th" motive. Big boots striding
through the caverns, powerfully. Some avalanches.

Must look into this SCORDATURA.

A pleasure.

caleb

On Feb 2, 2010, at 3:57 AM, Ozan Yarman wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I present my first musical work in 11-tone equal temperament: "Icicle
> Caverns". It is a chilly, electronic ambiance music exceeding 5
> minutes with intense orchestral elements including a 4-part canon at
> the mid section.
>
> All the sounds are tuned to the tones of 11 equal division of the
> octave by a special microtonal soundfont synthesizer called SCORDATURA
> by H-Pi Instruments. Audio stream was captured into Logic Pro via Jack
> Audio. Effects were added by me in Logic.
>
> Please click:
>
> http://www.ozanyarman.com/muzikler.html
>
> You can download the score from the same link. If the flash player
> doesn't work for you, try:
>
> http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/music/Icicle_Caverns.mp3
>
> Inspiration for this music came to me when Istanbul was covered with
> snow a few days back. It could be an ambiant theme music for a
> computer role-playing game in an ice world perhaps? Comments welcome!
>
> Cordially,
> Dr. Ozan Yarman
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

very nice piece.

$53 for the software is more than reasonable. Bummer it is mac only.

Chris

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 3:57 AM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>wrote:

>
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> I present my first musical work in 11-tone equal temperament: "Icicle
> Caverns". It is a chilly, electronic ambiance music exceeding 5
> minutes with intense orchestral elements including a 4-part canon at
> the mid section.
>
> All the sounds are tuned to the tones of 11 equal division of the
> octave by a special microtonal soundfont synthesizer called SCORDATURA
> by H-Pi Instruments. Audio stream was captured into Logic Pro via Jack
> Audio. Effects were added by me in Logic.
>
> Please click:
>
> http://www.ozanyarman.com/muzikler.html
>
> You can download the score from the same link. If the flash player
> doesn't work for you, try:
>
> http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/music/Icicle_Caverns.mp3
>
> Inspiration for this music came to me when Istanbul was covered with
> snow a few days back. It could be an ambiant theme music for a
> computer role-playing game in an ice world perhaps? Comments welcome!
>
> Cordially,
> Dr. Ozan Yarman
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
>

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

Hello Ozan,
I like it ! very refreshing, aerial and definitively evocative of ice and snow.
I was surprised to hear this 11-ET very different to what I am used to, and not at as dissonant as I would expect. It has a very particular feeling, that I would express as "joyful detachment".
The general color is very contemporary and reminds me strongly of dodecaphonic serial music - I would be curious in fact how people into serialism would react to it if you don't say it's 11-ET !
I would have only one critic may be, the use of too much reverb on everything all the time because the sounds are nice but all distant, why not but perhaps they could be more differently spaced.
- - - - - - -
Jacques

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Dear Cameron, thank you! "Pretty" in the "dreadfully eerie" sense of
course. :)

Opinions might differ as what to call 11-equal. It could indeed beconstrued as a temperament tempering out the difference between 32:27
(three 655 cent "fifths" down from C and two octaves up) and 9:7,
which is 243:224 (141 cents). That is a huge interval to be tempered!

I have no qualms about thinking of 11-tET as simply a tuning either.

Glad you enjoyed Icicle Caverns!
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Feb 2, 2010, at 2:20 PM, cameron wrote:

> Say Ozan that is lovely! Very fairy-tale like and pretty.
>
> I think it is a mistake to call 11 equal divisions of the octave a
> "temperament" though. Rather, it is a tuning.
>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> I present my first musical work in 11-tone equal temperament: "Icicle
>> Caverns". It is a chilly, electronic ambiance music exceeding 5
>> minutes with intense orchestral elements including a 4-part canon at
>> the mid section.
>>
>> All the sounds are tuned to the tones of 11 equal division of the
>> octave by a special microtonal soundfont synthesizer called
>> SCORDATURA
>> by H-Pi Instruments. Audio stream was captured into Logic Pro via
>> Jack
>> Audio. Effects were added by me in Logic.
>>
>> Please click:
>>
>> http://www.ozanyarman.com/muzikler.html
>>
>> You can download the score from the same link. If the flash player
>> doesn't work for you, try:
>>
>> http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/music/Icicle_Caverns.mp3
>>
>> Inspiration for this music came to me when Istanbul was covered with
>> snow a few days back. It could be an ambiant theme music for a
>> computer role-playing game in an ice world perhaps? Comments welcome!
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Dr. Ozan Yarman
>>
>> âo?=© âJ33;© âo?=©
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
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🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Hi Petr,

I'd describe the atmosphere of Icicle Caverns as "eerie" rather. :)
I'm a great fan of eerie, dark and Gothic.

I may not have listened to Sethares's music. Are there any links to it?

Thanks for listening!

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Feb 2, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Petr Pařízek wrote:

>
>
> Hi Oz.
>
> Thanks for the link. Sounds interesting.
>
> I'm not any great fan of 11-EDO myself but this piece seems to stay,
> despite the tuning, more or less in a quiet mood.
>
> Have you heard Sethares's "Turquoise Dabo Girl"?
>
> Petr
>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Great to hear you say such nice things Caleb! Glad you enjoyed the
piece. :)

Alas, no avalanches there, just myriad spooky crystalline aetherial
things. :)

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Feb 2, 2010, at 2:48 PM, caleb morgan wrote:

>
>
> I really enjoyed that.
>
> Delicate icicles. Descending "6th" motive. Big boots striding
> through the caverns, powerfully. Some avalanches.
>
> Must look into this SCORDATURA.
>
> A pleasure.
>
> caleb
>
>
>
> On Feb 2, 2010, at 3:57 AM, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> I present my first musical work in 11-tone equal temperament: "Icicle
>> Caverns". It is a chilly, electronic ambiance music exceeding 5
>> minutes with intense orchestral elements including a 4-part canon at
>> the mid section.
>>
>> All the sounds are tuned to the tones of 11 equal division of the
>> octave by a special microtonal soundfont synthesizer called
>> SCORDATURA
>> by H-Pi Instruments. Audio stream was captured into Logic Pro via
>> Jack
>> Audio. Effects were added by me in Logic.
>>
>> Please click:
>>
>> http://www.ozanyarman.com/muzikler.html
>>
>> You can download the score from the same link. If the flash player
>> doesn't work for you, try:
>>
>> http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/music/Icicle_Caverns.mp3
>>
>> Inspiration for this music came to me when Istanbul was covered with
>> snow a few days back. It could be an ambiant theme music for a
>> computer role-playing game in an ice world perhaps? Comments welcome!
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Dr. Ozan Yarman
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>
>
>
>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Hello Jacques!

Great that you enjoyed Icicle Caverns. :) I am myself surprised by the
"accordance" of frozen crystalline music in 11-tET. It gives me a
marooning joy also... the joy of the terrifying soul existence in acold, distant and barren landscape. The reverb is conforming to my
tastes here as you can tell.

The positioning of sounds was not viable at this juncture. I wish to
do a remix that incorporates panning at a later date.

Now there is a thought. Perhaps the music could be shown to French and
American masters of serialism?

Thank you for listening!

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Feb 2, 2010, at 4:44 PM, Jacques Dudon wrote:

>
>
> Hello Ozan,
> I like it ! very refreshing, aerial and definitively evocative of
> ice and snow.
> I was surprised to hear this 11-ET very different to what I am used
> to, and not at as dissonant as I would expect. It has a very
> particular feeling, that I would express as "joyful detachment".
> The general color is very contemporary and reminds me strongly of
> dodecaphonic serial music - I would be curious in fact how people
> into serialism would react to it if you don't say it's 11-ET !
> I would have only one critic may be, the use of too much reverb on
> everything all the time because the sounds are nice but all distant,
> why not but perhaps they could be more differently spaced.
> - - - - - - -
> Jacques
>
>
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> I present my first musical work in 11-tone equal temperament: "Icicle
>> Caverns". It is a chilly, electronic ambiance music exceeding 5
>> minutes with intense orchestral elements including a 4-part canon at
>> the mid section.
>>
>> All the sounds are tuned to the tones of 11 equal division of the
>> octave by a special microtonal soundfont synthesizer called
>> SCORDATURA
>> by H-Pi Instruments. Audio stream was captured into Logic Pro via
>> Jack
>> Audio. Effects were added by me in Logic.
>>
>> Please click:
>>
>> http://www.ozanyarman.com/muzikler.html
>>
>> You can download the score from the same link. If the flash player
>> doesn't work for you, try:
>>
>> http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/music/Icicle_Caverns.mp3
>>
>> Inspiration for this music came to me when Istanbul was covered with
>> snow a few days back. It could be an ambiant theme music for a
>> computer role-playing game in an ice world perhaps? Comments welcome!
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Dr. Ozan Yarman
>
>
>
>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Thank you.

For those of you who still languish with Windows, there is always
Scala, Fractal Tune Smithy, Oblivion VST and other such fine tuning
programs. But surely, Scordatura is the most professional tuning
instrument for Macs at the moment. It is the only one that allows on-
the-fly tuning changes. The new scale format is not too difficult to
master either. I have in fact contributed myself to the growing scale
archive of CSE. Kudos to Aaron Andrew Hunt for programming Scordatura
and taking measures to painstakingly work on the updates. I'm only
happy to have been the a motivator to Scordatura's inception.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Feb 2, 2010, at 2:56 PM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

>
>
> very nice piece.
>
> $53 for the software is more than reasonable. Bummer it is mac only.
>
> Chris
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 3:57 AM, Ozan Yarman
> <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> I present my first musical work in 11-tone equal temperament: "Icicle
> Caverns". It is a chilly, electronic ambiance music exceeding 5
> minutes with intense orchestral elements including a 4-part canon at
> the mid section.
>
> All the sounds are tuned to the tones of 11 equal division of the
> octave by a special microtonal soundfont synthesizer called SCORDATURA
> by H-Pi Instruments. Audio stream was captured into Logic Pro via Jack
> Audio. Effects were added by me in Logic.
>
> Please click:
>
> http://www.ozanyarman.com/muzikler.html
>
> You can download the score from the same link. If the flash player
> doesn't work for you, try:
>
> http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/music/Icicle_Caverns.mp3
>
> Inspiration for this music came to me when Istanbul was covered with
> snow a few days back. It could be an ambiant theme music for a
> computer role-playing game in an ice world perhaps? Comments welcome!
>
> Cordially,
> Dr. Ozan Yarman
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
>
>
>
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

As far as I know I can't tune my external GR-20 with those programs unless I
use a midi routing program like midi yoke which I've not been able to get
working on vista64.

I did purchase fractal tune smithy and the kontakt script program but as I
said not been able to use them successfully yet.

My target is to be able to play my guitar as a midi controller and send the
re-tuned midi data back to the GR-20 module because it has some very good
sounds. Also - the hardware supports a bend range of +/- 24 - twice what
most synths support.

I'm going to try this (again)
http://www.midiox.com/cgi/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=MYInstall;action=display;num=1168918461
for installing midi yoke.

Chris

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 6:27 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>wrote:

>
>
> Thank you.
>
> For those of you who still languish with Windows, there is always Scala,
> Fractal Tune Smithy, Oblivion VST and other such fine tuning programs. But
> surely, Scordatura is the most professional tuning instrument for Macs at
> the moment. It is the only one that allows on-the-fly tuning changes. The
> new scale format is not too difficult to master either. I have in fact
> contributed myself to the growing scale archive of CSE. Kudos to Aaron
> Andrew Hunt for programming Scordatura and taking measures to painstakingly
> work on the updates. I'm only happy to have been the a motivator to
> Scordatura's inception.
>
> Oz.
>
>

🔗caleb morgan <calebmrgn@...>

You're right. Funny, I knew that was wrong when I wrote it--no
avalanches.

My ear is ok, but I sometimes strain for effect when I write.

I'll try to raise my game.

I, too, thought the reverb was a bit heavy, could use some things more
in foreground, some in background.

But I mean what I say in general, and only respond to pieces that I
like, and discussions that seem like they might be fruitful--that is,
things I can readily apply.

caleb

On Feb 2, 2010, at 6:07 PM, Ozan Yarman wrote:

>
> Great to hear you say such nice things Caleb! Glad you enjoyed the
> piece. :)
>
> Alas, no avalanches there, just myriad spooky crystalline aetherial
> things. :)
>
> Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> On Feb 2, 2010, at 2:48 PM, caleb morgan wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I really enjoyed that.
>>
>> Delicate icicles. Descending "6th" motive. Big boots striding
>> through the caverns, powerfully. Some avalanches.
>>
>> Must look into this SCORDATURA.
>>
>> A pleasure.
>>
>> caleb
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 2, 2010, at 3:57 AM, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> I present my first musical work in 11-tone equal temperament:
>>> "Icicle
>>> Caverns". It is a chilly, electronic ambiance music exceeding 5
>>> minutes with intense orchestral elements including a 4-part canon at
>>> the mid section.
>>>
>>> All the sounds are tuned to the tones of 11 equal division of the
>>> octave by a special microtonal soundfont synthesizer called
>>> SCORDATURA
>>> by H-Pi Instruments. Audio stream was captured into Logic Pro via >>> Jack
>>> Audio. Effects were added by me in Logic.
>>>
>>> Please click:
>>>
>>> http://www.ozanyarman.com/muzikler.html
>>>
>>> You can download the score from the same link. If the flash player
>>> doesn't work for you, try:
>>>
>>> http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/music/Icicle_Caverns.mp3
>>>
>>> Inspiration for this music came to me when Istanbul was covered with
>>> snow a few days back. It could be an ambiant theme music for a
>>> computer role-playing game in an ice world perhaps? Comments
>>> welcome!
>>>
>>> Cordially,
>>> Dr. Ozan Yarman
>>>
>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@...>

🔗Petr Pařízek <p.parizek@...>

🔗caleb morgan <calebmrgn@...>

I'd be astonished if the background music for Dr. Who, or indeed any
background music for TV was this good.

It's too athletic, eventful, motivic, inventive. Not to mention the
tuning.

My cred: 1,600+ background cues for science-documentaries, video
installations, industrials.

It may not be practical for you, but if you can find some TV
background music that is in this league, and you can post it, I
wouldn't mind being proven wrong.

Didn't sound like TV background music as I know it.

On Feb 2, 2010, at 10:35 PM, Herman Miller wrote:

> Ozan Yarman wrote:
>
> > Inspiration for this music came to me when Istanbul was covered with
> > snow a few days back. It could be an ambiant theme music for a
> > computer role-playing game in an ice world perhaps? Comments
> welcome!
>
> Nice use of an often neglected tuning. Very atmospheric. I think it
> could make good background music; it sounds like it could have come
> from
> a Doctor Who soundtrack if they had an episode set on an ice world.
>
>
>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Dear Herman,

Nice to hear you say so! I've been a fan of the original Dr. Who
series back in my childhood. But in my opionion Star Wars is the best
sci-fi saga there is (surpassing even Avatar) and I'd rather aim for
the theme music of ice planet Hoth.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Feb 3, 2010, at 5:35 AM, Herman Miller wrote:

> Ozan Yarman wrote:
>
>> Inspiration for this music came to me when Istanbul was covered with
>> snow a few days back. It could be an ambiant theme music for a
>> computer role-playing game in an ice world perhaps? Comments welcome!
>
> Nice use of an often neglected tuning. Very atmospheric. I think it
> could make good background music; it sounds like it could have come
> from
> a Doctor Who soundtrack if they had an episode set on an ice world.
>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

I'm humbled by such high compliments! Very gracious of you.

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Feb 3, 2010, at 11:58 AM, caleb morgan wrote:

>
>
> I'd be astonished if the background music for Dr. Who, or indeed any
> background music for TV was this good.
>
> It's too athletic, eventful, motivic, inventive. Not to mention the
> tuning.
>
> My cred: 1,600+ background cues for science-documentaries, video > installations, industrials.
>
> It may not be practical for you, but if you can find some TV
> background music that is in this league, and you can post it, I
> wouldn't mind being proven wrong.
>
> Didn't sound like TV background music as I know it.
>
>
> On Feb 2, 2010, at 10:35 PM, Herman Miller wrote:
>
>> Ozan Yarman wrote:
>>
>> > Inspiration for this music came to me when Istanbul was covered
>> with
>> > snow a few days back. It could be an ambiant theme music for a
>> > computer role-playing game in an ice world perhaps? Comments
>> welcome!
>>
>> Nice use of an often neglected tuning. Very atmospheric. I think it
>> could make good background music; it sounds like it could have come
>> from
>> a Doctor Who soundtrack if they had an episode set on an ice world.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

As I always say, I'm a "butterfingers" on digital mastering. If only
people with skill on studio sound engineering could assist me produce
a better, more vibrant mix... But that would be viable when I'm ready
to release the CD album next year. And they would have to come help me
record an editable mix in my house in the first place.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:44 AM, caleb morgan wrote:

>
>
> You're right. Funny, I knew that was wrong when I wrote it--no
> avalanches.
>
> My ear is ok, but I sometimes strain for effect when I write.
>
> I'll try to raise my game.
>
> I, too, thought the reverb was a bit heavy, could use some things
> more in foreground, some in background.
>
> But I mean what I say in general, and only respond to pieces that I
> like, and discussions that seem like they might be fruitful--that
> is, things I can readily apply.
>
> caleb
>
>
> On Feb 2, 2010, at 6:07 PM, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>
>>
>> Great to hear you say such nice things Caleb! Glad you enjoyed the
>> piece. :)
>>
>> Alas, no avalanches there, just myriad spooky crystalline aetherial
>> things. :)
>>
>> Oz.
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>> On Feb 2, 2010, at 2:48 PM, caleb morgan wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I really enjoyed that.
>>>
>>> Delicate icicles. Descending "6th" motive. Big boots striding
>>> through the caverns, powerfully. Some avalanches.
>>>
>>> Must look into this SCORDATURA.
>>>
>>> A pleasure.
>>>
>>> caleb
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 2, 2010, at 3:57 AM, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I present my first musical work in 11-tone equal temperament:
>>>> "Icicle
>>>> Caverns". It is a chilly, electronic ambiance music exceeding 5
>>>> minutes with intense orchestral elements including a 4-part canon
>>>> at
>>>> the mid section.
>>>>
>>>> All the sounds are tuned to the tones of 11 equal division of the
>>>> octave by a special microtonal soundfont synthesizer called
>>>> SCORDATURA
>>>> by H-Pi Instruments. Audio stream was captured into Logic Pro via
>>>> Jack
>>>> Audio. Effects were added by me in Logic.
>>>>
>>>> Please click:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ozanyarman.com/muzikler.html
>>>>
>>>> You can download the score from the same link. If the flash player
>>>> doesn't work for you, try:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/music/Icicle_Caverns.mp3
>>>>
>>>> Inspiration for this music came to me when Istanbul was covered
>>>> with
>>>> snow a few days back. It could be an ambiant theme music for a
>>>> computer role-playing game in an ice world perhaps? Comments
>>>> welcome!
>>>>
>>>> Cordially,
>>>> Dr. Ozan Yarman
>>>>
>>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

Ozan Yarman wrote :

> Opinions might differ as what to call 11-equal. It could indeed be
> construed as a temperament tempering out the difference between 32:27
> (three 655 cent "fifths" down from C and two octaves up) and 9:7,
> which is 243:224 (141 cents). That is a huge interval to be tempered!
>
> I have no qualms about thinking of 11-tET as simply a tuning either.

I would agree with Cameron, there is no point to call a tuning a "temperament" if it does not tempers anything in particular. Of course you can think 655 c. as a fifth but it becomes harder to hear the 11-edo semitone as a "double-fifth" tone, and same for the 9/7 as a "minor third", especially when they have better representants in the scale.
More realistically, forgetting 3 and 5 it is possible to conceive 11-edo as a simplification of JI tunings based on factors 7 and 9 (9 undivided by 3). These can be spread on a bidimensional lattice (3D including 2) that would develop :

1/1
729/686
8/7 or 67228/59049
98/81
9/7
6561/4802
9604/6561
14/9
81/49
59049/33614 or 7/4
1372/729
2/1
with eventual dissolution of 2*9^5 / 7^6 or 118098/117649 (6.59456984 c.), if ever the 8/7 have an interest in here.

Or other JI tunings based on factors 7, 9, 11 (9 undivided by 3) such as
1/1
729/686 or 576/539
891/784
98/49
9/7
6561/4802
9604/6561
14/9
81/49
1568/891
539/288 or 1372/729
2/1
with eventual dissolution of 11^2 * 7^3 / 9^2 * 2^9 or 41503/41472 (1.2936 c.)
(not to mention 77/72, 77/64, 11/8 that could also claim to be present)

Which would suggest many scales and also offer, humm... 11 possibilities for each ! ;-(
- - - - - - -
Jacques

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Whole-tone, minor third... these are just denominations we so-readily
relate to psycho-acoustical phenomena. One must not confuse those
phenomena with the change of metric in xentonal divisions. 9:7 in 11-
EDO is a minor third as a requirement of metric or mapping, not a
"minor third" in the audio-psychological sense. The interval name and
function here does not need to connotate a sensory equivalent (major
third) we associate with that of 12-EDO or variant tunings.

Every equal division tempers something in particular. Whether or not
some vanishing intervals are significant is wholly dependant on the
musical context.

Obviously, I do not believe in absolute JI-ism.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Feb 4, 2010, at 3:57 PM, Jacques Dudon wrote:

>
>
> Ozan Yarman wrote :
>
>> Opinions might differ as what to call 11-equal. It could indeed be
>> construed as a temperament tempering out the difference between 32:27
>> (three 655 cent "fifths" down from C and two octaves up) and 9:7,
>> which is 243:224 (141 cents). That is a huge interval to be tempered!
>>
>> I have no qualms about thinking of 11-tET as simply a tuning either.
>
>
> I would agree with Cameron, there is no point to call a tuning a
> "temperament" if it does not tempers anything in particular. Of
> course you can think 655 c. as a fifth but it becomes harder to hear
> the 11-edo semitone as a "double-fifth" tone, and same for the 9/7
> as a "minor third", especially when they have better representants
> in the scale.
> More realistically, forgetting 3 and 5 it is possible to conceive 11-
> edo as a simplification of JI tunings based on factors 7 and 9 (9
> undivided by 3). These can be spread on a bidimensional lattice (3D
> including 2) that would develop :
>
> 1/1
> 729/686
> 8/7 or 67228/59049
> 98/81
> 9/7
> 6561/4802
> 9604/6561
> 14/9
> 81/49
> 59049/33614 or 7/4
> 1372/729
> 2/1
> with eventual dissolution of 2*9^5 / 7^6 or 118098/117649
> (6.59456984 c.), if ever the 8/7 have an interest in here.
>
>
> Or other JI tunings based on factors 7, 9, 11 (9 undivided by 3)
> such as
> 1/1
> 729/686 or 576/539
> 891/784
> 98/49
> 9/7
> 6561/4802
> 9604/6561
> 14/9
> 81/49
> 1568/891
> 539/288 or 1372/729
> 2/1
> with eventual dissolution of 11^2 * 7^3 / 9^2 * 2^9 or 41503/41472
> (1.2936 c.)
> (not to mention 77/72, 77/64, 11/8 that could also claim to be
> present)
>
> Which would suggest many scales and also offer, humm... 11
> possibilities for each ! ;-(
> - - - - - - -
> Jacques
>
>
>

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

Ozan Yarman wrote :

> Whole-tone, minor third... these are just denominations we so-readily
> relate to psycho-acoustical phenomena. One must not confuse those
> phenomena with the change of metric in xentonal divisions. 9:7 in 11-
> EDO is a minor third as a requirement of metric or mapping, not a
> "minor third" in the audio-psychological sense. The interval name and
> function here does not need to connotate a sensory equivalent (major
> third) we associate with that of 12-EDO or variant tunings.

The "9/7" here is only a minor third if you postulate the 6 steps interval to be a "fifth".
Does it needs to connotate to a fifth, and do -3 of those need to connotate to 32/27 ?
And if it was so, what mapping would the "psychoacoustic minor third", 3 steps interval require ?
256/243, or 729/512 may be... ?
And why not rather 77/64, or 98/81, or both ?
Anyway none of those would not need to connotate to *12-EDO*, not in my case ;-)

> Every equal division tempers something in particular.

Then explain what 11-ET tempers for you, in particular.

> Whether or not some vanishing intervals are significant is wholly > dependant on the
> musical context.

Certainly.
The vanishing intervals I suggested here were only applying to unequal temperaments anyway.

> Obviously, I do not believe in absolute JI-ism.

I don't know if I have this belief myself, what I know is that some JI references do not hurt, even in temperaments.
- - - - - - -
Jacques

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Dear Jacques,

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Feb 5, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Jacques Dudon wrote:

>
>
> Ozan Yarman wrote :
>
>> Whole-tone, minor third... these are just denominations we so-readily
>> relate to psycho-acoustical phenomena. One must not confuse those
>> phenomena with the change of metric in xentonal divisions. 9:7 in 11-
>> EDO is a minor third as a requirement of metric or mapping, not a
>> "minor third" in the audio-psychological sense. The interval name and
>> function here does not need to connotate a sensory equivalent (major
>> third) we associate with that of 12-EDO or variant tunings.
>
>
> The "9/7" here is only a minor third if you postulate the 6 steps
> interval to be a "fifth".

And what would you have one take as the "fifth" in 11-EDO? 655 cents
is the closest equivalent there is to both a psychoacoustical and
theoretical fifth. On that basis does the cycle define the temperament.

Nonetheless, I concur there may be other mappings (5, 9) without any
"fifth" in the system.

> Does it needs to connotate to a fifth, and do -3 of those need to
> connotate to 32/27 ?

It is not so much a need than a matter of choice in seeing 11-equal as
a temperament.

> And if it was so, what mapping would the "psychoacoustic minor
> third", 3 steps interval require ?

Given the 655 cent fifth, it becomes Db or its enharmonic equivalent F#.

> 256/243, or 729/512 may be... ?
> And why not rather 77/64, or 98/81, or both ?
> Anyway none of those would not need to connotate to *12-EDO*, not in
> my case ;-)

Seeing as JI theory has some relevance to the sensory phemonena behind
perceiving intervals, we are accustomed to attribute JI or RI ratios
to explain the consonance or dissonance of tempered intervals. Under
"ordinary" (meaning occidentalized) circumstances, we would define
intervals by their proximity to 12-equal or quasi-equal tones. I know
I still do!

>
>> Every equal division tempers something in particular.
>
>
> Then explain what 11-ET tempers for you, in particular.

I think in my music you can observe how I use 0-545 cents as a perfect
fourth and its inversion as a diminished fifth. The JI difference is
tempered for me.

>
>> Whether or not some vanishing intervals are significant is wholly
>> dependant on the
>> musical context.
>
>
> Certainly.
> The vanishing intervals I suggested here were only applying to
> unequal temperaments anyway.
>
>> Obviously, I do not believe in absolute JI-ism.
>
>
> I don't know if I have this belief myself, what I know is that some
> JI references do not hurt, even in temperaments.

Agreed!

> - - - - - - -
> Jacques
>

Cordially,
Oz.

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

Ozan wrote :

>> > (Jacques) : Does it needs to connotate to a fifth, and do -3 of >> those need to
>> > connotate to 32/27 ?

> It is not so much a need than a matter of choice in seeing 11-equal as
> a temperament.
> ...
> I think in my music you can observe how I use 0-545 cents as a perfect
> fourth and its inversion as a diminished fifth. The JI difference is
> tempered for me.

Yes indeed I was astonished of how perfect these fourths sounded in your beautiful piece.
And I thought they did not lack "temperament"... ;-)
Anyway, "Qu'importe le flacon, pourvu qu'on aie l'ivresse..."
(Whatever the bottle, as long as we have the pleasure...)

Cheers !
- - - - - - -
Jacques