[tuning] Lasso in tonal-ji, with melodyne retuned choir!

Solved the lasso comma problem in tonal-JI.
And re-tuned a real choir using melodyne editor to tonal-ji.

Have a listen at www.develde.net

Ps, offcourse soon to come the drei equale played by a real trombone quartet
:)
Just waiting for a cd to come in the mail, the mp3 i have has too many
artifacts.
While with the lasso choir it's hard to hear the pitch, trombones give a
much clearer pitch defenition :)

Marcel

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> Solved the lasso comma problem in tonal-JI.
> And re-tuned a real choir using melodyne editor to tonal-ji.
>
> Have a listen at www.develde.net

I thought you discovered that one of those major chords was
actually minor in the score, but these files have it major
again... ?

-Carl

> I thought you discovered that one of those major chords was
> actually minor in the score, but these files have it major
> again... ?
>

Yes I had found a midi rendering of the full score online somewhere back a
year ago or so when the piece was discussed on the tuning list.
It had a minor chord in measure 4.3 instead of a major.
But this recording uses a major chord again so I'm better that the major
chord is indeed correct.
Can't trust internet midi files, I've seen other errors in them before.
Still haven't seen a full score scanned and put online anywhere but haven't
looked very hard either.

What do you think of the tuning btw? Also for the melodyned choir.
I like it a lot, and also in the re-tuned version better than the original
performance.
Btw it now has 4 wolfs in it, more than ever haha :)
I'm going to write out the tuning now and post it later.
Still it sound right to me, and my harmonic permutation theory sais it has
to be so. It actually resembles my choir piece a little I realised, it
modulates a lot unlike the drei equale.

Marcel

Uploaded the transcription to my site.
Also uploaded an old adaptive-ji version for comparison. I've forgotten who
made it (there were 2 versions back then, don't know which one this one is).
www.develde.net

Here a short version of the transcription (hope it copy pastes ok):

C = 1/1 JI-Tonic: Chord from tonic:
3/2 15/8 9/8 G 3/2 1/1 5/4 3/2
" " " 3/2 1/1 5/4 3/2
1/1 1/1 5/4 " 1/1 4/3 5/3
4/3 " 4/3 5/3 C 1/1 1/1 4/3 5/3
" 1/1 " " 1/1 4/3 5/3
16/9 10/9 " 16/9 F 4/3 1/1 4/3 5/3
" " 3/2 " 9/8 4/3 5/3 -wolf
1/1 1/1 " 5/3 9/8 5/4 3/2
" " 4/3 " 1/1 5/4 3/2
" " " 3/2 1/1 9/8 3/2
" " 5/4 " 9/8 3/2 15/8
" " 10/9 " 9/8 3/2 5/3 -wolf
" " 5/4 5/3 5/4 3/2 15/8
9/8 15/8 9/8 " C 1/1 9/8 5/3 15/8
-wolf
" " " 3/2 9/8 3/2 15/8
9/8 27/16 9/8 " G 3/2 1/1 9/8 3/2
" " " 45/32 9/8 3/2 15/8
" " " 5/4 9/8 3/2 5/3 -wolf
" " " 45/32 9/8 3/2 15/8
3/2 15/8 9/8 3/2 1/1 5/4 3/2

Marcel

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:

> What do you think of the tuning btw?

I've lost track, but it doesn't sound like the latest
MIDI I heard.

> Also for the melodyned choir.

Sounds fine. Not too sterile.

-Carl

Hi Carl,

I've lost track, but it doesn't sound like the latest
> MIDI I heard.
>

Hehe I understand I've built up quite a reputation for producing many
"final" tunings :)
But this little piece is now perfectly clear and correct according to my
theory, and my ear is 100% content with it.
It's a simple little thing in major. If you look at the transcription you'll
see how it works musically.
I see it as that 9/8 4/3 5/3 is an in tune chord etc. And as proof that all
music is in it's basis indeed JI.
Should I ever come back from this tuning I may aswell quit tuning
alltogether, I see it as that fundamentally right.
If this is wrong then all is wrong :)

>
>
> > Also for the melodyned choir.
>
> Sounds fine. Not too sterile.
>

Yes I resisted reducing any performance aspects such as vibrato etc.
Oh but wait till you hear the drei equale. It'll be the most beautifull
thing ever :)
I expect to post it in about a week (still waiting for the cd to work from).

Marcel

I listened to the original recording and the tonal-JI version, switching between them several times. I have to say, the tonal-JI version is very much in tune, really good work there. I prefer the original recording despite this, as I feel the chord starting at 13-14 seconds on the original performance had some good "punch" which was regrettably lost in your smooth version.

Thankfully the music was not originally written for saw wave. The tonal-JI version played with saws is piercing and static, where the 12-tet version has a fuzzy, fat sound which is soothing and easy to listen to.

Though my ears aren't as finely-tuned as yours I'm sure, that is the opinion of this microtonalist. It's interesting - I played a chord progression in 13-limit JI and then a 12-tet version to one non-musician friend of mine. The examples can be found here:

http://www.sagittal.org/exmp/index.htm

Unfortunately he thought I was playing the same thing to him over and over again. While he probably has bad ears, I wonder how many of the non-musician public would feel the same way as him. This seems to me to be a big obstacle to having a framework for perfectly in-tune music (such as tonal-JI) become recognised and being used by more than just us tuning fanatics.

Looking forward to hearing the Drei Equale submissions. All the best!

Sean

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> Solved the lasso comma problem in tonal-JI.
> And re-tuned a real choir using melodyne editor to tonal-ji.
>
> Have a listen at www.develde.net
>
> Ps, offcourse soon to come the drei equale played by a real trombone quartet
> :)
> Just waiting for a cd to come in the mail, the mp3 i have has too many
> artifacts.
> While with the lasso choir it's hard to hear the pitch, trombones give a
> much clearer pitch defenition :)
>
> Marcel
>

Hi Sean,

I listened to the original recording and the tonal-JI version, switching
> between them several times. I have to say, the tonal-JI version is very much
> in tune, really good work there. I prefer the original recording despite
> this, as I feel the chord starting at 13-14 seconds on the original
> performance had some good "punch" which was regrettably lost in your smooth
> version.
>

Glad you like the tuning :)
What kind of punch do you mean btw? Punch due to tuning or due to
soundquality difference?
I'm guessing you mean tuning? Right before the chord you mention there's a
particulary much out of tune (way too high) voice in the original, which
indeed affects how the next chord is perceived.
I'm not sure which one I like best myself btw, the original or retuned one.
A choir with all it's quirks has a feel to it that's alive, I don't much
mind the tuning beeing a bit off.
And in my retuned version there's not much perfection anyhow as all the
voices bend and vibrate all over the place.
Now the Beethoven piece for trombones, that's going to be a whole different
story. It's where tuning will shine :)

>
> Thankfully the music was not originally written for saw wave. The tonal-JI
> version played with saws is piercing and static, where the 12-tet version
> has a fuzzy, fat sound which is soothing and easy to listen to.
>
I don't much like 12tet fuzziness myself. But one could achieve the same
effect by slightly detuning 2 oscillators to soften the saw, yet still be in
JI tuning with every note.

>
> Though my ears aren't as finely-tuned as yours I'm sure, that is the
> opinion of this microtonalist.
>
Ohh I dunno.. If I can call my ears fine tuned.
I make mistakes all the time, and it takes me a long time sometimes to hear
something is wrong.
Most of what I do is by theory, could not do it all by ear.

> It's interesting - I played a chord progression in 13-limit JI and then a
> 12-tet version to one non-musician friend of mine. The examples can be found
> here:
>
> http://www.sagittal.org/exmp/index.htm
>
I'm tempted to do a 5-limit JI version :)
Btw I don't find the midi sound very clear. I prefer the trombone midi sound
myself, sound nr 58 or 57 (depending on where your midi file writer starts
to count on 0 or 1)

>
> Unfortunately he thought I was playing the same thing to him over and over
> again. While he probably has bad ears, I wonder how many of the non-musician
> public would feel the same way as him. This seems to me to be a big obstacle
> to having a framework for perfectly in-tune music (such as tonal-JI) become
> recognised and being used by more than just us tuning fanatics.
>

Oef he must have bad ears indeed!
But I belief that should JI become practical to use correctly and produce
quality music with it (perhaps even by retuning music with melodyne), that
real music lovers will hear the difference, and increase in emotional
content.
If enough music lovers and music makers hear the advantage there could be a
buzz, and it is these people who would bring it to the bigger public.
I know this sounds like a fantasy that'll never happen to most, but I think
it's possible, in the near future even.

> Looking forward to hearing the Drei Equale submissions. All the best!
>
Yes me too!
So far 2 submission in, and 2 in the making that I'm aware of. Though
probably more people are secretly working on a version too :)
21 March is closing date for submissions. Voting will probably start around
April 1st.
I plan to render all submissions with both an electronic sound, and retune a
real trombone quartet recording for each tuning.
Should be great listening pleasure :)

All the best to you too!

Marcel