Vicentino with microtones: was Vicentino without microtones

Dear Juhani,

How you go on about less than a minute and a half of music. Now while I
did not direct the ensemble of vocalists, I hear plenty of the enharmonic
genus...but nearer the end of the piece. The work begins in the diatonic
(intentionally without microtones...although not in equal temperament),
through the chromatic (again, intentionally without microtones...yet not in
equal temperament), to the enharmonic (which I believe your ears have missed
them).

"I just got the Pitch CD 'Classic' from AFMM that I'd ordered. On it is the
world
premiere recording of the famous microtonal composition 'Musica prisca
caput'
that I'd eagerly been waiting to hear. To my great disappointment, the
piece is
sung without the microtones!"

"but I think it is highly misleading that the American Festival of
Microtonal Music puts out
a recording of a historical work famous for its use of 'enharmonic'
intervals -
without them."

Yes, it would be, but perhaps not as misleading as your reflex reaction
that missed what I hear as microtonal, hmmn?

"In addition, the first ten bars are left out in the recording.
There may be explanations to these issues on the liner notes which
according to
the CD cover should be on the afmm web pages - but I couldn't find them.
Could Johnny Reinhardt share some light on this?"
Juhani N."

You can read all the notes on CD Baby, which I announced yesterday on this
list.

For the CLASSIC album, go to:
_http://cdbaby.com/cd/bbbtwv_ (http://cdbaby.com/cd/bbbtwv)
As for the missing introductory measures: I didn't feel that the
composition lost anything without the introduction. The same is true for the
Werckmeister solo, and
to a certain extent, the excerpt of the Bach "Musical Offering" canons.
Maybe your imagination of the piece was trumped by what you actually heard,
as it was performed in a most relaxed manner.
Johnny Reinhard

Dear Johnny,

thank you for your reply. I admit that I was afraid that you'd say the microtones are there but I missed them.

>The work begins in the diatonic
> (intentionally without microtones...although not in equal temperament),
Yes. It sounds the way I expected.
> through the chromatic (again, intentionally without microtones...yet not in
> equal temperament),
Yes. That section sounds as expected, too, while being rather adventurous harmonically, in the avant-garde style of the time.
to the enharmonic (which I believe your ears have missed
> them).

I do hear some unusual inflections in places. It might be that the singers' voices make it harder to hear the small intervals. But these inflections are much smaller microintervals than Vicentino's diesis, or 1/5 tone, aren't they? There is a lot of music for acoustic instruments or singers that makes use intervals around that size and I certainly have no difficulties in telling the pitches apart. In Vicentino's piece, there are passages where an un-dotted note is followed by a dotted note, indicating an ascending diesis, and in the recording I hear the same pitch repeated. My ears might be playing tricks and maybe my solfège needs more work but I doubt the singers here sing the enharmonic interval intended by Vicentino.

> Maybe your imagination of the piece was trumped by what you actually heard,
> as it was performed in a most relaxed manner.

There are MIDI versions of Vicentino's piece online, and I've also played the examples in his book on my Tonal Plexus microtonal synth, so maybe I'm thinking too much in terms of fixed-pitch instruments. But then, it is my understanding that Vicentino's motet would have been possible to play on his Archicembalo.

Juhani

At some time I will go back to the recording, but for now, suffice to say,
it has been found beautiful.

Juhani, there is a strange phenomenon I have experienced throughout my
lifetime. And I don't know if it has a name. However, it occurs when an
educated listeners listens more towards expectations so as to hoodwink their
brains, in a sense. Below are some examples:

Ornette Coleman did not notice that a 24-tone quartertone scale played by
me on a bassoon was other than a "familiar" semitone scale. (His cousin
had to convince him.)

An ethnomusicology class at Columbia University came to one of my gigs with
JC & the Microtones at The Other End in Greenwich Village, which we played
almost exclusively in 31-tone equal temperament. They told me afterwards
they heard nothing unusual in our tuning!

I don't want to embarrass too many friends that were fooled into hearing
something as ET which was, and vice versa. In my own situation, I remember
when I was just starting my graduate studies, I couldn't pick out the
quartertones in Oum Kalsoum's maqam recordings. there were others.

Perhaps, Juhani, you could go back to the Bach selection and listen to it
as one of the truly rare Bach works that have no keyboards attached.
That's why I included the pieces. Hope you love the Tartini and the
Brahms...and Beethoven?

Johnny

>
> At some time I will go back to the recording, but for now, suffice to say,
> it has been found beautiful.

Beautiful it is, no question about that. It's just that the way I hear it, it's very cautious and free in its interpretation of the enharmonic intervals.
>
> there is a strange phenomenon I have experienced throughout my
> lifetime. And I don't know if it has a name. However, it occurs when an
> educated listeners listens more towards expectations so as to hoodwink their
> brains, in a sense. Below are some examples:
>
> JC & the Microtones at The Other End in Greenwich Village, which we played
> almost exclusively in 31-tone equal temperament. They told me afterwards
> they heard nothing unusual in our tuning!

I heard one of those gigs back in the 90's and I loved it!
That music was quite obviously microtonal to my ears but what you describe has happened to me many times, and also to people listening to my own music. For instance, a distinguished teacher of composition said the same thing about my choir piece in 11-limit JI, presumably because it was so consonant and the singers sang even all the small intervals in such a natural manner. In fact that's what you were saying about the performance of the Vicentino.

> Perhaps, Juhani, you could go back to the Bach selection and listen to it
> as one of the truly rare Bach works that have no keyboards attached.
> That's why I included the pieces. Hope you love the Tartini and the
> Brahms...and Beethoven?

Absolutely. I was especially impressed by the fantastic violinist in the Tartini and the natural horn in the Brahms.

Juhani

The fact that the perception of some types of microtones (such as
sesqui-semitones in diatonic melodies of Maqam music) is not directly
noticable unless the listener is made conscious of them is indicative
of an underlying mechanism (or possibly cultural acclimatization) of
the auditory nerve and the human brain. The psycho-acoustics of
discerning microtones in diverse musical contexts is not very well
studied, or is it?

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Jan 19, 2010, at 1:35 AM, Afmmjr@... wrote:

>
>
> At some time I will go back to the recording, but for now, suffice
> to say, it has been found beautiful.
>
> Juhani, there is a strange phenomenon I have experienced throughout
> my lifetime. And I don't know if it has a name. However, it occurs
> when an educated listeners listens more towards expectations so as
> to hoodwink their brains, in a sense. Below are some examples:
>
> Ornette Coleman did not notice that a 24-tone quartertone scale
> played by me on a bassoon was other than a "familiar" semitone
> scale. (His cousin had to convince him.)
>
> An ethnomusicology class at Columbia University came to one of my
> gigs with JC & the Microtones at The Other End in Greenwich Village,
> which we played almost exclusively in 31-tone equal temperament.
> They told me afterwards they heard nothing unusual in our tuning!
>
> I don't want to embarrass too many friends that were fooled into
> hearing something as ET which was, and vice versa. In my own
> situation, I remember when I was just starting my graduate studies,
> I couldn't pick out the quartertones in Oum Kalsoum's maqam
> recordings. there were others.
>
> Perhaps, Juhani, you could go back to the Bach selection and listen
> to it as one of the truly rare Bach works that have no keyboards
> attached. That's why I included the pieces. Hope you love the
> Tartini and the Brahms...and Beethoven?
>
> Johnny
>
>
>

Ozan, I suspect, "The psycho-acoustics of discerning microtones in diverse
musical contexts is not very well studied, or is it?" depends whether you
mean on paper or in the heads of some musicians.

Juhani was not culturally challenged, and maybe, not even suffering an
auditory malfunction. My sense is that he had a different set of expectations
when he listened. To poke further into this phenomenon, I did an analysis
of the Vicentino recording he heard, to show how difficult it really is to
not the few cases in the last measures that actually have harmonic
enharmonicisms.

Analysis of Vicentino's Musica prisca caput from PITCH CLASSIC CD:

48 measures in total: leaves 38.5 measures (as first 9.5 measures not
released (but all diatonic)
Only the last 17 measures are enharmonic by virtue of the added dots above
the noteheads.
Measure 31 (enharmonic) is melodic major chord displaced up a diesis
Measure 32 is a major chord out of the enharmonic gamut
Measure 33 moves to Bb major chord raised a diesis
Measures 34-35: G major goes up a dieses to a G+ major chord
Measure 36: C to C+
Measure 37: C+
Measure 38: F major to F+, last 4 of 4 has a mixed enharmonic Gb within P5
D-A
Measure 39: mixed Db with P5 A-E
Measure 40: nothing enharmonic
Measure 41: F major to F+ major
Measure 42: F+ major to G minor seventh
Measure 43: short G minor+ to G major
Measure 44: G+ major
Measure 45: to normal C major
Measure 46: A+ minor to A major
Measure 47: P5 A-E+ with a non dotted (or enharmonic) Db
Measure 48: Normal D major
cordially, Johnny Reinhard

I have a few articles on the topic of the perception of microtones,
but I think the answer to your question is 'no' because of the phrase
'diverse musical contexts' in the question. But to find out more, you
might try searching articles at worldcat, using various search terms,
for example:
<http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=microtonal+pitch&qt=results_page>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>The psycho-acoustics of
> discerning microtones in diverse musical contexts is not very well
> studied, or is it?

Ozan, I suspect, "The psycho-acoustics of discerning microtones in diverse
musical contexts is not very well studied, or is it?" depends whether you
mean on paper or in the heads of some musicians.

Juhani was not culturally challenged, and maybe, not even suffering an
auditory malfunction. My sense is that he had a different set of expectations
when he listened. To poke further into this phenomenon, I did an analysis
of the Vicentino recording he heard, to show how difficult it really is to
not the few cases in the last measures that actually have harmonic
enharmonicisms.

Analysis of Vicentino's Musica prisca caput from PITCH CLASSIC CD:

48 measures in total: leaves 38.5 measures (as first 9.5 measures not
released (but all diatonic)
Only the last 17 measures are enharmonic by virtue of the added dots above
the noteheads.
Measure 31 (enharmonic) is melodic major chord displaced up a diesis
Measure 32 is a major chord out of the enharmonic gamut
Measure 33 moves to Bb major chord raised a diesis
Measures 34-35: G major goes up a dieses to a G+ major chord
Measure 36: C to C+
Measure 37: C+
Measure 38: F major to F+, last 4 of 4 has a mixed enharmonic Gb within P5
D-A
Measure 39: mixed Db with P5 A-E
Measure 40: nothing enharmonic
Measure 41: F major to F+ major
Measure 42: F+ major to G minor seventh
Measure 43: short G minor+ to G major
Measure 44: G+ major
Measure 45: to normal C major
Measure 46: A+ minor to A major
Measure 47: P5 A-E+ with a non dotted (or enharmonic) Db
Measure 48: Normal D major
cordially, Johnny Reinhard

Johnny, the brain must be attuned and receptive to microtones to
notice, let alone appreciate microtones. But since psycho-acoustics is
a rather subjective field of study, I have personally observed people
finding a microtonal piece I find harmonious as rather distasteful.
Heck, I feel no joy in reporting that some people are outright irked
by microtones that we readily classify as "pleasant".

Is it any wonder that hard-core maqam traditionalists abhor to even
hear the word "temperament"?

How valid is then the argument that 4:5:6:7 is the most harmonious
dominant chord for all cases and for all cultural contexts? Such a
claim is simply not true. Many times in this list there have been
talks that intervals based on the 7th partial are perceived as
dissonant (or discordant) by people acclimatized to other tone-systems
(such as 12-equal).

Let us admit that Just Intonation theory is rather amusing in its
grandiose claims to account for greatest consonances (and
coincidentally, beauty) in music-making. It does not defy reason that
elimination of beats is NOT the penultimate path to perfect harmony.
So many cultures around the world can testify against this neo-
occidentalist position with their own ideas and perceptions on musical
aesthetics.

Our perceptions and expectations cannot be the same when listening to
the same music. We are not machines after all...

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Jan 22, 2010, at 7:30 PM, Afmmjr@... wrote:

>
>
> Ozan, I suspect, "The psycho-acoustics of discerning microtones in
> diverse musical contexts is not very well studied, or is it?"
> depends whether you mean on paper or in the heads of some musicians.
>
> Juhani was not culturally challenged, and maybe, not even suffering
> an auditory malfunction. My sense is that he had a different set of
> expectations when he listened. To poke further into this
> phenomenon, I did an analysis of the Vicentino recording he heard,> to show how difficult it really is to not the few cases in the last
> measures that actually have harmonic enharmonicisms.
>
> Analysis of Vicentino's Musica prisca caput from PITCH CLASSIC CD:
> 48 measures in total: leaves 38.5 measures (as first 9.5 measures
> not released (but all diatonic)
> Only the last 17 measures are enharmonic by virtue of the added dots
> above the noteheads.
>
> Measure 31 (enharmonic) is melodic major chord displaced up a diesis
> Measure 32 is a major chord out of the enharmonic gamut
> Measure 33 moves to Bb major chord raised a diesis
> Measures 34-35: G major goes up a dieses to a G+ major chord
> Measure 36: C to C+
> Measure 37: C+
> Measure 38: F major to F+, last 4 of 4 has a mixed enharmonic Gb
> within P5 D-A
> Measure 39: mixed Db with P5 A-E
> Measure 40: nothing enharmonic
> Measure 41: F major to F+ major
> Measure 42: F+ major to G minor seventh
> Measure 43: short G minor+ to G major
> Measure 44: G+ major
> Measure 45: to normal C major
> Measure 46: A+ minor to A major
> Measure 47: P5 A-E+ with a non dotted (or enharmonic) Db
> Measure 48: Normal D major
>
>
> cordially, Johnny Reinhard
>
>
>

Dear John,

you list the the enharmonic tones in Vicentino's score, as printed in the English translation of his book.
I'm afraid I still don't hear the singers on the CD performing those intervals - only some microtonal inflections in places. The diesis steps (ca. 1/5 tone, or 41 cents) are very clear in Margo Schulter's MIDI version, here:
https://lists.wu-wien.ac.at/pipermail/earlym-l/2005-February/000849.html
For instance, in the last four bars, the soprano line is supposed to ascend microtonally, thus: diesis - diesis - diesis - diesis - small halfstep (ca. 70c).
Patrizio Barbieri has another transcription of the piece, both as notation and MIDI rendition, in his book Enharmonic Instruments and Music, which differs in a couple of details but it is basically the same.

Are you saying that the singers on the PITCH CD take the diesis steps as fifth-tones, as in Vicentino's theory and on the MIDI files? Aren't they rather intoning them freely, with much smaller intervals?

Yours,

Juhani

> Analysis of Vicentino's Musica prisca caput from PITCH CLASSIC CD:
>
> 48 measures in total: leaves 38.5 measures (as first 9.5 measures not
> released (but all diatonic)
> Only the last 17 measures are enharmonic by virtue of the added dots above
> the noteheads.
> Measure 31 (enharmonic) is melodic major chord displaced up a diesis
> Measure 32 is a major chord out of the enharmonic gamut
> Measure 33 moves to Bb major chord raised a diesis
> Measures 34-35: G major goes up a dieses to a G+ major chord
> Measure 36: C to C+
> Measure 37: C+
> Measure 38: F major to F+, last 4 of 4 has a mixed enharmonic Gb within P5
> D-A
> Measure 39: mixed Db with P5 A-E
> Measure 40: nothing enharmonic
> Measure 41: F major to F+ major
> Measure 42: F+ major to G minor seventh
> Measure 43: short G minor+ to G major
> Measure 44: G+ major
> Measure 45: to normal C major
> Measure 46: A+ minor to A major
> Measure 47: P5 A-E+ with a non dotted (or enharmonic) Db
> Measure 48: Normal D major
> cordially, Johnny Reinhard
>

Dear Juhani,

Thank you, thank you. I think you are right after all. But damn if the
recording doesn't sound beautiful. After listening to Margot's performance,
I agree that the players played it WAY too safe (to say the least). I may
have to issue a disclaimer on these seconds of music. "I had considered
the loss of the opening measures to be the equivalent of a wardrobe
malfunction." I guess I was bamboozled by the phenomenon I was describing!

As a result, I am planning a new performance of this piece for May 15, 2010
as part of the AFMM concert. The only way to be sure the tuning is right
now is for me to sing in the group, and to find my ensemble.

Johnny

Dear John,

you list the the enharmonic tones in Vicentino's score, as printed in the
English translation of his book.
I'm afraid I still don't hear the singers on the CD performing those
intervals -
only some microtonal inflections in places. The diesis steps (ca. 1/5
tone, or
41 cents) are very clear in Margo Schulter's MIDI version, here:
_https://lists.wu-wien.ac.at/pipermail/earlym-l/2005-February/000849.html_
(https://lists.wu-wien.ac.at/pipermail/earlym-l/2005-February/000849.html)
For instance, in the last four bars, the soprano line is supposed to
ascend
microtonally, thus: diesis - diesis - diesis - diesis - small halfstep (ca.
70c).
Patrizio Barbieri has another transcription of the piece, both as notation
and
MIDI rendition, in his book Enharmonic Instruments and Music, which
differs in a
couple of details but it is basically the same.

Are you saying that the singers on the PITCH CD take the diesis steps as
fifth-tones, as in Vicentino's theory and on the MIDI files? Aren't they
rather
intoning them freely, with much smaller intervals?

Yours,

Juhani

The reason to be wary of claims concerning the pinpointing of executed
pitches by ear without the backing of empirical measurements and
scientific analysis tools becomes ever more apparent.

Well-studied and painstakingly rendered musics will seldom sound
outright ugly. That is to be expected. But is the production of
"beautiful sounds" the only goal in the realization of a faithful
rendition of a microtonal piece?

Should we not humbly admit that there might certainly be gross errors
committed by executants during such performances without them even
realizing?

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Jan 24, 2010, at 3:48 AM, Afmmjr@... wrote:

>
>
>
> Dear Juhani,
>
> Thank you, thank you. I think you are right after all. But damn if
> the recording doesn't sound beautiful. After listening to Margot's
> performance, I agree that the players played it WAY too safe (to say
> the least). I may have to issue a disclaimer on these seconds of
> music. "I had considered the loss of the opening measures to be the
> equivalent of a wardrobe malfunction." I guess I was bamboozled by
> the phenomenon I was describing!
>
> As a result, I am planning a new performance of this piece for May
> 15, 2010 as part of the AFMM concert. The only way to be sure the
> tuning is right now is for me to sing in the group, and to find my
> ensemble.
>
> Johnny
>
>
>
> Dear John,
>
> you list the the enharmonic tones in Vicentino's score, as printed
> in the
> English translation of his book.
> I'm afraid I still don't hear the singers on the CD performing those
> intervals -
> only some microtonal inflections in places. The diesis steps (ca.
> 1/5 tone, or
> 41 cents) are very clear in Margo Schulter's MIDI version, here:
> https://lists.wu-wien.ac.at/pipermail/earlym-l/2005-February/000849.html
> For instance, in the last four bars, the soprano line is supposed to
> ascend
> microtonally, thus: diesis - diesis - diesis - diesis - small
> halfstep (ca.
> 70c).
> Patrizio Barbieri has another transcription of the piece, both as
> notation and
> MIDI rendition, in his book Enharmonic Instruments and Music, which
> differs in a
> couple of details but it is basically the same.
>
> Are you saying that the singers on the PITCH CD take the diesis
> steps as
> fifth-tones, as in Vicentino's theory and on the MIDI files? Aren't
> they rather
> intoning them freely, with much smaller intervals?
>
> Yours,
>
> Juhani
>

Oz: The reason to be wary of claims concerning the pinpointing of
executed pitches by ear without the backing of empirical measurements and
scientific analysis tools becomes ever more apparent.

Johnny: Not so sure. Scientific analysis is not the issue here. I'll
have to speak with those involved. But I certainly succumbed to the
phenomenon we were discussing. Time to sing it myself. :)

Oz: Well-studied and painstakingly rendered musics will seldom sound
outright ugly. That is to be expected. But is the production of "beautiful
sounds" the only goal in the realization of a faithful rendition of a microtonal
piece?

Johnny: There is a difference in performing a piece of music that
grotesquely emphasizes microtones amidst so-called "regular" notes. When all the
notes are organically in a music fabric. In the case of the Vicentino
recording, the dotted microtones were simply not turned on. I did not expect,
as Juhani did, the microtonal distinctiveness that Margot's version
established. Certainly, beautiful sounds is not a requirement for microtonal music.
But Renaissance music sung justly does sort of fit the beautiful
stereotype.

Oz: Should we not humbly admit that there might certainly be gross errors
committed by executants during such performances without them even
realizing?

Cordially,
Oz.

Johnny: On rare occasion. But Juhani has pointed out something else, a
non-reading of the dot notation. It is still a subtle usage of microtones
by Vicentino because it is mostly shifting just chords up and down a dieses.

very best, Johnny