Avatar

I've seen several statements to suggest the upcoming film Avatar contains microtonality, this is pretty much all i can find though:

http://www.bookofjoe.com/2009/12/james-camerons-pandorapedia.html

However, what can be heard of the soundtrack in the trailers and released footage sounds very cliched to me....

/Ö

Mats,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "oljare" <oljare@...> wrote:
>
> I've seen several statements to suggest the upcoming film Avatar contains microtonality, this is pretty much all i can find though:

The score is by James Horner, hardly a game-changer. He says this in an interview about scoring the film:

"The biggest challenge, he says, was working out how far he could push audiences. "Visually, audiences are able to accept almost anything, but in terms of film music, I couldn't put something in front of them that's light years ahead and expect them to accept it. I had long discussions with Jim and we decided that mainstream audiences were not ready for an avant garde experience — they don't listen to avant garde music and Avatar is not an art film. The score needed to be grounded; that's where the world's ear is.

"What I have done is create a world that uses a tremendous amount of colour — colours that we haven't heard before. There is a tremendous amount of different vocalisations in the score, as well as conventional orchestral music. For example, you'll hear a small bit of orchestral music, then three or four ethnic instruments will play and then somebody will sing and then the orchestra will do something and it has to all be seamless over, say, a 12-minute sequence. It's been very difficult to keep straight. It's not like saying, `OK, we have a 12-minute sequence and the orchestra will play until the end.' We start a piece of music that lasts 12 minutes but in the course of that piece of music maybe ten different ensembles will play."

That sounds to me that if there is any microtonal/world stuff, it is going to be in 'source' music, little scenes of natives playing indigenous instruments, or something along those lines. The bulk of the score, I'm sure, will be standard orchestral/Hollywood material.

Complete interview here:

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article6936869.ece

Cheers,
Jon

What an utterly depressing and stupid statement. Mainstream movie audiences used to be ready for advanced /complex /atonal / experimental / avantgarde music precisely when concert audiences were not. There are so many examples... Psycho, 2001, The Shining, just to mention a few obvious ones. Hey, there's microtonality even in the rock'n'roll biopic 'Why Do Fools Fall in Love' - but in a sci-fi extravaganza the composer "couldn't put something in front of them that's light years ahead and expect them to accept it". It's probably just as well; I suspect we're lucky to be saved from this guy's concept of music that's "light years ahead".

jn

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "jonszanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Mats,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "oljare" <oljare@> wrote:
> >
> > I've seen several statements to suggest the upcoming film Avatar contains microtonality, this is pretty much all i can find though:
>
> The score is by James Horner, hardly a game-changer. He says this in an interview about scoring the film:
>
> "The biggest challenge, he says, was working out how far he could push audiences. "Visually, audiences are able to accept almost anything, but in terms of film music, I couldn't put something in front of them that's light years ahead and expect them to accept it. I had long discussions with Jim and we decided that mainstream audiences were not ready for an avant garde experience — they don't listen to avant garde music and Avatar is not an art film. The score needed to be grounded; that's where the world's ear is.
>
> "What I have done is create a world that uses a tremendous amount of colour — colours that we haven't heard before. There is a tremendous amount of different vocalisations in the score, as well as conventional orchestral music. For example, you'll hear a small bit of orchestral music, then three or four ethnic instruments will play and then somebody will sing and then the orchestra will do something and it has to all be seamless over, say, a 12-minute sequence. It's been very difficult to keep straight. It's not like saying, `OK, we have a 12-minute sequence and the orchestra will play until the end.' We start a piece of music that lasts 12 minutes but in the course of that piece of music maybe ten different ensembles will play."
>
> That sounds to me that if there is any microtonal/world stuff, it is going to be in 'source' music, little scenes of natives playing indigenous instruments, or something along those lines. The bulk of the score, I'm sure, will be standard orchestral/Hollywood material.
>
> Complete interview here:
>
> http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article6936869.ece
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

Ever do any film-scoring, Juhani?

You want advocacy from a working pro??

I don't hear him making a lot of extraordinary claims, despite the
'colors we haven't heard before' remark. That's still generally true.

What I heard him saying was that he worked nearly round the clock for
a long, long time.

Can you think of a lot of mainstream movies that weren't expressing
terror or the utterly strange?

Danny Elfman's score for A Simple Plan was also 'unspeakably
eerie' (though I liked it) according to Billie Bob Thornton.

This is how people unaccustomed to novel tunings hear microtonalmusic--on a spectrum from exotic to strange to scary.

Them's the breaks.

You don't really point to what you think is utterly depressing and
stupid here, but even allowing for internet exaggeration, I disagree.

Caleb

On Dec 20, 2009, at 4:58 PM, Juhani wrote:

> What an utterly depressing and stupid statement. Mainstream movie
> audiences used to be ready for advanced /complex /atonal /
> experimental / avantgarde music precisely when concert audiences
> were not. There are so many examples... Psycho, 2001, The Shining,
> just to mention a few obvious ones. Hey, there's microtonality even
> in the rock'n'roll biopic 'Why Do Fools Fall in Love' - but in a sci-
> fi extravaganza the composer "couldn't put something in front of
> them that's light years ahead and expect them to accept it". It's
> probably just as well; I suspect we're lucky to be saved from this > guy's concept of music that's "light years ahead".
>
> jn
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "jonszanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
> >
> > Mats,
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "oljare" <oljare@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've seen several statements to suggest the upcoming film Avatar
> contains microtonality, this is pretty much all i can find though:
> >
> > The score is by James Horner, hardly a game-changer. He says this
> in an interview about scoring the film:
> >
> > "The biggest challenge, he says, was working out how far he could
> push audiences. "Visually, audiences are able to accept almost
> anything, but in terms of film music, I couldn't put something in
> front of them that's light years ahead and expect them to accept it.
> I had long discussions with Jim and we decided that mainstream> audiences were not ready for an avant garde experience — they don't > listen to avant garde music and Avatar is not an art film. The score
> needed to be grounded; that's where the world's ear is.
> >
> > "What I have done is create a world that uses a tremendous amount
> of colour — colours that we haven't heard before. There is a
> tremendous amount of different vocalisations in the score, as well
> as conventional orchestral music. For example, you'll hear a small
> bit of orchestral music, then three or four ethnic instruments will
> play and then somebody will sing and then the orchestra will do
> something and it has to all be seamless over, say, a 12-minute
> sequence. It's been very difficult to keep straight. It's not like
> saying, `OK, we have a 12-minute sequence and the orchestra will
> play until the end.' We start a piece of music that lasts 12 minutes
> but in the course of that piece of music maybe ten different> ensembles will play."
> >
> > That sounds to me that if there is any microtonal/world stuff, it
> is going to be in 'source' music, little scenes of natives playing
> indigenous instruments, or something along those lines. The bulk of
> the score, I'm sure, will be standard orchestral/Hollywood material.
> >
> > Complete interview here:
> >
> > http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article6936869.ece
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jon
> >
>
>
>

I apologize for expressing my irritation so harshly. As you say, there are no outrageous claims in the interview. The statement that I disagree with is the one concerning the ability of movie audiences to digest unusual music.

> You want advocacy from a working pro??

No, I guess not - I don't think the Penderecki stuff in 'The Shining' served a didactic purpose. I just find it hard to believe that the mainstream audiences would be unable to accept an experimental score in a sci-fi movie like this.

> Can you think of a lot of mainstream movies that weren't expressing
> terror or the utterly strange?

You mean ones with far-out music? But doesn't this movie deal with terror and the utterly strange? There's a long tradition of using non-mainstream music to express those emotions: atonality, electronic music, noise... And audiences haven't been turned off by that even if they wouldn't listen to that kind of music without the images. (Though I believe the soundtrack LP to 2001 with the Ligeti pieces sold a lot.)

>
> Danny Elfman's score for A Simple Plan was also 'unspeakably
> eerie' (though I liked it) according to Billie Bob Thornton.

http://elfman.filmmusic.com/filmography/a_simple_plan.html
Thanks for pointing this movie out - gotta see it! Strange music indeed - but was it in any way a problem for the reception / success of the movie?
>
> This is how people unaccustomed to novel tunings hear microtonal
> music--on a spectrum from exotic to strange to scary.

Which is why i find it odd to assume that it (or other "avantgarde experiences") would be too weird for Avatar's audiences.

Juhani

>
> Them's the breaks.
>
> You don't really point to what you think is utterly depressing and
> stupid here, but even allowing for internet exaggeration, I disagree.
>
> Caleb
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 20, 2009, at 4:58 PM, Juhani wrote:
>
> > What an utterly depressing and stupid statement. Mainstream movie
> > audiences used to be ready for advanced /complex /atonal /
> > experimental / avantgarde music precisely when concert audiences
> > were not. There are so many examples... Psycho, 2001, The Shining,
> > just to mention a few obvious ones. Hey, there's microtonality even
> > in the rock'n'roll biopic 'Why Do Fools Fall in Love' - but in a sci-
> > fi extravaganza the composer "couldn't put something in front of
> > them that's light years ahead and expect them to accept it". It's
> > probably just as well; I suspect we're lucky to be saved from this
> > guy's concept of music that's "light years ahead".
> >
> > jn
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "jonszanto" <jszanto@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Mats,
> > >
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "oljare" <oljare@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I've seen several statements to suggest the upcoming film Avatar
> > contains microtonality, this is pretty much all i can find though:
> > >
> > > The score is by James Horner, hardly a game-changer. He says this
> > in an interview about scoring the film:
> > >
> > > "The biggest challenge, he says, was working out how far he could
> > push audiences. "Visually, audiences are able to accept almost
> > anything, but in terms of film music, I couldn't put something in
> > front of them that's light years ahead and expect them to accept it.
> > I had long discussions with Jim and we decided that mainstream
> > audiences were not ready for an avant garde experience — they don't
> > listen to avant garde music and Avatar is not an art film. The score
> > needed to be grounded; that's where the world's ear is.
> > >
> > > "What I have done is create a world that uses a tremendous amount
> > of colour — colours that we haven't heard before. There is a
> > tremendous amount of different vocalisations in the score, as well
> > as conventional orchestral music. For example, you'll hear a small
> > bit of orchestral music, then three or four ethnic instruments will
> > play and then somebody will sing and then the orchestra will do
> > something and it has to all be seamless over, say, a 12-minute
> > sequence. It's been very difficult to keep straight. It's not like
> > saying, `OK, we have a 12-minute sequence and the orchestra will
> > play until the end.' We start a piece of music that lasts 12 minutes
> > but in the course of that piece of music maybe ten different
> > ensembles will play."
> > >
> > > That sounds to me that if there is any microtonal/world stuff, it
> > is going to be in 'source' music, little scenes of natives playing
> > indigenous instruments, or something along those lines. The bulk of
> > the score, I'm sure, will be standard orchestral/Hollywood material.
> > >
> > > Complete interview here:
> > >
> > > http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article6936869.ece
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Jon
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

I apologize for expressing my irritation so harshly. As you say, there are no outrageous claims in the interview. The statement that I disagree with is the one concerning the ability of movie audiences to digest unusual music.

> You want advocacy from a working pro??

No, I guess not - I don't think the Penderecki stuff in 'The Shining' served a didactic purpose. I just find it hard to believe that the mainstream audiences would be unable to accept an experimental score in a sci-fi movie like this.

> Can you think of a lot of mainstream movies that weren't expressing
> terror or the utterly strange?

You mean ones with far-out music? But doesn't this movie deal with terror and the utterly strange? There's a long tradition of using non-mainstream music to express those emotions: atonality, electronic music, noise... And audiences haven't been turned off by that even if they wouldn't listen to that kind of music without the images. (Though I believe the soundtrack LP to 2001 with the Ligeti pieces sold a lot.)

>
> Danny Elfman's score for A Simple Plan was also 'unspeakably
> eerie' (though I liked it) according to Billie Bob Thornton.

http://elfman.filmmusic.com/filmography/a_simple_plan.html
Thanks for pointing this movie out - gotta see it! Strange music indeed - but was it in any way a problem for the reception / success of the movie?
>
> This is how people unaccustomed to novel tunings hear microtonal
> music--on a spectrum from exotic to strange to scary.

Which is why i find it odd to assume that it (or other "avantgarde experiences") would be too weird for Avatar's audiences.

Juhani

>
> Them's the breaks.
>
> You don't really point to what you think is utterly depressing and
> stupid here, but even allowing for internet exaggeration, I disagree.
>
> Caleb
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 20, 2009, at 4:58 PM, Juhani wrote:
>
> > What an utterly depressing and stupid statement. Mainstream movie
> > audiences used to be ready for advanced /complex /atonal /
> > experimental / avantgarde music precisely when concert audiences
> > were not. There are so many examples... Psycho, 2001, The Shining,
> > just to mention a few obvious ones. Hey, there's microtonality even
> > in the rock'n'roll biopic 'Why Do Fools Fall in Love' - but in a sci-
> > fi extravaganza the composer "couldn't put something in front of
> > them that's light years ahead and expect them to accept it". It's
> > probably just as well; I suspect we're lucky to be saved from this
> > guy's concept of music that's "light years ahead".
> >
> > jn
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "jonszanto" <jszanto@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Mats,
> > >
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "oljare" <oljare@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I've seen several statements to suggest the upcoming film Avatar
> > contains microtonality, this is pretty much all i can find though:
> > >
> > > The score is by James Horner, hardly a game-changer. He says this
> > in an interview about scoring the film:
> > >
> > > "The biggest challenge, he says, was working out how far he could
> > push audiences. "Visually, audiences are able to accept almost
> > anything, but in terms of film music, I couldn't put something in
> > front of them that's light years ahead and expect them to accept it.
> > I had long discussions with Jim and we decided that mainstream
> > audiences were not ready for an avant garde experience — they don't
> > listen to avant garde music and Avatar is not an art film. The score
> > needed to be grounded; that's where the world's ear is.
> > >
> > > "What I have done is create a world that uses a tremendous amount
> > of colour — colours that we haven't heard before. There is a
> > tremendous amount of different vocalisations in the score, as well
> > as conventional orchestral music. For example, you'll hear a small
> > bit of orchestral music, then three or four ethnic instruments will
> > play and then somebody will sing and then the orchestra will do
> > something and it has to all be seamless over, say, a 12-minute
> > sequence. It's been very difficult to keep straight. It's not like
> > saying, `OK, we have a 12-minute sequence and the orchestra will
> > play until the end.' We start a piece of music that lasts 12 minutes
> > but in the course of that piece of music maybe ten different
> > ensembles will play."
> > >
> > > That sounds to me that if there is any microtonal/world stuff, it
> > is going to be in 'source' music, little scenes of natives playing
> > indigenous instruments, or something along those lines. The bulk of
> > the score, I'm sure, will be standard orchestral/Hollywood material.
> > >
> > > Complete interview here:
> > >
> > > http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article6936869.ece
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Jon
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

Good reply, and I also apologize if I sounded testy.

Being somewhat of an old fogey, I didn't know what the subject of
Avatar was.

But you're right--it's a sci-fi movie.

anecdote: Seven or eight years ago, I meet Kenny Werner, jazz guru,
through a friend of a friend. I say I'm interested in microtonal
music. "How to be unpopular", he says. End of that conversation.

Another kind of 'microtonal' music that doesn't strain the brain of the audience too much, despite the virtuosity--barbershop quartet.

caleb

On Dec 20, 2009, at 8:40 PM, Juhani wrote:

>
>
> I apologize for expressing my irritation so harshly. As you say,
> there are no outrageous claims in the interview. The statement that
> I disagree with is the one concerning the ability of movie audiences
> to digest unusual music.
>
> > You want advocacy from a working pro??
>
> No, I guess not - I don't think the Penderecki stuff in 'The
> Shining' served a didactic purpose. I just find it hard to believe
> that the mainstream audiences would be unable to accept an
> experimental score in a sci-fi movie like this.
>
> > Can you think of a lot of mainstream movies that weren't expressing
> > terror or the utterly strange?
>
> You mean ones with far-out music? But doesn't this movie deal with
> terror and the utterly strange? There's a long tradition of using
> non-mainstream music to express those emotions: atonality,
> electronic music, noise... And audiences haven't been turned off by > that even if they wouldn't listen to that kind of music without the
> images. (Though I believe the soundtrack LP to 2001 with the Ligeti
> pieces sold a lot.)
>
> >
> > Danny Elfman's score for A Simple Plan was also 'unspeakably
> > eerie' (though I liked it) according to Billie Bob Thornton.
>
> http://elfman.filmmusic.com/filmography/a_simple_plan.html
> Thanks for pointing this movie out - gotta see it! Strange music
> indeed - but was it in any way a problem for the reception / success
> of the movie?
> >
> > This is how people unaccustomed to novel tunings hear microtonal
> > music--on a spectrum from exotic to strange to scary.
>
> Which is why i find it odd to assume that it (or other "avantgarde
> experiences") would be too weird for Avatar's audiences.
>
> Juhani
>
> >
> > Them's the breaks.
> >
> > You don't really point to what you think is utterly depressing and
> > stupid here, but even allowing for internet exaggeration, I
> disagree.
> >
> > Caleb
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 20, 2009, at 4:58 PM, Juhani wrote:
> >
> > > What an utterly depressing and stupid statement. Mainstream movie
> > > audiences used to be ready for advanced /complex /atonal /
> > > experimental / avantgarde music precisely when concert audiences
> > > were not. There are so many examples... Psycho, 2001, The Shining,
> > > just to mention a few obvious ones. Hey, there's microtonality
> even
> > > in the rock'n'roll biopic 'Why Do Fools Fall in Love' - but in a > sci-
> > > fi extravaganza the composer "couldn't put something in front of
> > > them that's light years ahead and expect them to accept it". It's
> > > probably just as well; I suspect we're lucky to be saved from this
> > > guy's concept of music that's "light years ahead".
> > >
> > > jn
> > >
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "jonszanto" <jszanto@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mats,
> > > >
> > > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "oljare" <oljare@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I've seen several statements to suggest the upcoming film
> Avatar
> > > contains microtonality, this is pretty much all i can find though:
> > > >
> > > > The score is by James Horner, hardly a game-changer. He says
> this
> > > in an interview about scoring the film:
> > > >
> > > > "The biggest challenge, he says, was working out how far he
> could
> > > push audiences. "Visually, audiences are able to accept almost
> > > anything, but in terms of film music, I couldn't put something in
> > > front of them that's light years ahead and expect them to accept
> it.
> > > I had long discussions with Jim and we decided that mainstream
> > > audiences were not ready for an avant garde experience — they
> don't
> > > listen to avant garde music and Avatar is not an art film. The
> score
> > > needed to be grounded; that's where the world's ear is.
> > > >
> > > > "What I have done is create a world that uses a tremendous
> amount
> > > of colour — colours that we haven't heard before. There is a
> > > tremendous amount of different vocalisations in the score, as well
> > > as conventional orchestral music. For example, you'll hear a small
> > > bit of orchestral music, then three or four ethnic instruments > will
> > > play and then somebody will sing and then the orchestra will do
> > > something and it has to all be seamless over, say, a 12-minute
> > > sequence. It's been very difficult to keep straight. It's not like
> > > saying, `OK, we have a 12-minute sequence and the orchestra will
> > > play until the end.' We start a piece of music that lasts 12
> minutes
> > > but in the course of that piece of music maybe ten different
> > > ensembles will play."
> > > >
> > > > That sounds to me that if there is any microtonal/world stuff,
> it
> > > is going to be in 'source' music, little scenes of natives playing
> > > indigenous instruments, or something along those lines. The bulk
> of
> > > the score, I'm sure, will be standard orchestral/Hollywood
> material.
> > > >
> > > > Complete interview here:
> > > >
> > > > http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article6936869.ece
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Jon
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>

So, now i've seen the film, and i can confirm there was nothing remotely microtonal at any point, even where i suspected there might be. Still pretty awesome though, worth seeing for the fact alone that it's going to revolutionize cinema as a whole, to make not only 3D models of alien creatures, but 3D models of real human actors look and act that realistic!

/Ö