Re: Eskelin and Barbershop sevens

> Robert Valentine wrote,
>
>>> On the other hand, I could see leaving the fourth at 4/3
>>> and having the leading tone sharp! [Not to get the high
>>> third back into discussion...]
>
> Gerald Eskelin wrote,
>
>>Whether or not there really is a "high third," there certainly is a "low
>>seventh."

I quite believe there is a "high third", although I hear it more when used
as a leading tone than as a point of rest. I also agree there is a "low
seventh", although I don't think thats the seventh that is traditionally
used in a dominant seventh chord.

>>Why would you consider a 4/3 seventh in a dominant 7th chord. The
>>whole chord generates directly from the dominant pitch as 4:7, not directly
>>from the tonic pitch. The 4/3 fourth belongs to the subdominant chord and
>>presents a very different sounding scale step 4.

This doesn't match with what my ears tell me is happenning in normal
practice. I see no reason why the 'dissonance' in the dissonant
chord shouldn't be derived from its target, rather than from itself.

Do we have historical performance notes
for singers, violinists, etc on how to 'flat the fourth' while part of
a resolution (similar to notes we have seen regarding treatment
of the "large and small major seconds"?

Bob Valentine

Robert Valentine wrote,
>
> I quite believe there is a "high third", although I hear it more when used
> as a leading tone than as a point of rest.

It occurs just as frequently in final tonic chords. It depends on the intent
of the singers to seek the most "blended" sounds.

> I also agree there is a "low
> seventh", although I don't think thats the seventh that is traditionally
> used in a dominant seventh chord.

Depends on what you mean by "traditionally." My own "tradition" has
developed over about twenty years of training singers in various musical
styles to listen to their own ears when tuning chords. If by the term you
mean all of those choral groups who pound out "their notes" on pianos,
that's not the tradition on which I base my opinion.

I had previously written:
>
>>>Why would you consider a 4/3 seventh in a dominant 7th chord. The
>>>whole chord generates directly from the dominant pitch as 4:7, not directly
>>>from the tonic pitch. The 4/3 fourth belongs to the subdominant chord and
>>>presents a very different sounding scale step 4.

And Bob replied:
>
> This doesn't match with what my ears tell me is happenning in normal
> practice. I see no reason why the 'dissonance' in the dissonant
> chord shouldn't be derived from its target, rather than from itself.

Again, it depends upon the performer's care in tuning simultaneously
sounding pitches. Again, ears used to tempered pitch relationships are more
likely to sound scale step four where the piano plays it and ignore
simultaneous relationships.
>
> Do we have historical performance notes
> for singers, violinists, etc on how to 'flat the fourth' while part of
> a resolution (similar to notes we have seen regarding treatment
> of the "large and small major seconds"?

Unfortunately, no. That's why I am sharing my observations in the two books
already in print and will expand on this principle in "Components of Vocal
Blend" when I get the time.

Jerry