Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning 5:6:7:9 vs 1/7:1/6:1/5:1/4 quick statement of my impression of the difference in "feel" between these chords

Hello -

A quick personal reaction to the post in the 10/22/09 Tuning Digest #6344 by duckfeetbilly "Re: the 'math' of the minor triad":

"One can make a side by side comparison of two viable tunings of the half-diminished 7th chord. The harmonic is 5:6:7:9, while the subharmic is 1/7:1/6:1/5:1/4. I find the harmonic version to have a purer more locked-in sound, while the subharmonic version "weeps".

I would venture to say that the 1/7:1/6:1/5:1/4 chord sounds tuneful to about the degree that you would expect of the ratio 60:70:84:105, which is the harmonic equivalent of this tuning."

If you believe that the undertone series has a tunefulness of its own, try the first 16 subharmonics together. I've heard it, and I wasn't impressed.

Someone on the internet has said that the overtone tunings are "sonically" consonant, while the undertone tunings are "phonically" consonant. But I have no idea what that means."

Some years ago I did quite a bit of personal ear testing comparing the two tetrads at one time with a synthesizer I had built in 1980/81 which had a resolution to about one cent and then later with chords on a piano tuned to a "just intonation array" pattern (see note at end of my post) in the late 1990s (tuning resolution to within a couple cents). My impression was that there was a very different psychological and emotional "feel" to the two chords despite the similarities between them in "gross structure". My own musical experiences and opinions I had developed must have played a role in this. The 5:6:7:9 chord seemed to me to have a character of intense emotional reaching out - perhaps pathos - suitable for a dramatic moment in an opera for example. I perceived the 1/7:1/6:1/5:1/4 chord to have a distinct unique character which seemed to be less humanly emotional but was neat and intriguing - like a mystery of science or a unique pleasing geometric form with impressive symmetry. These are my own subjective impressions, but please don't knock the 1/7:1/6:1/5:1/4 harmony too hard.

This is an immediate reaction. I've not yet carefully looked at the intriguing discussion of harmonic entropy but plan to do so soon.

Dave Hill

note re just intonation array tuning of piano:

fifths on Eb, Bb, and F just; C - G a flat fifth by 80/81 frequency ratio; fifths on G, D, and A just; major thirds on Eb, Bb, and F, and then C, G, D, A having just 5/4 frequency ratios. I had G# tuned to a just 7/4 frequency ratio with Bb, making the major third E - G# slightly flatter than a just 5/4

🔗a_sparschuh <a_sparschuh@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Hill <ASCEND11@...> wrote:
>....The harmonic is 5:6:7:9,
> while the subharmic is 1/7:1/6:1/5:1/4.
> I find the harmonic version to have a
> purer more locked-in sound, while the subharmonic version "weeps".
>
> I would venture to say that the 1/7:1/6:1/5:1/4 chord
> sounds tuneful to about the degree that you would expect of the
> ratio 60:70:84:105,
> which is the harmonic equivalent of this tuning."
>
Agreed Ralph,
that 60:70:84:105 "weeps" all in all to much intolerable
as an apt extension of the minor-mode,
hence I do prefer the lower partials 10:12:14:15
as 7-limit generalization of 10:12:15 minor,
because 1/(4:5:6:7) sounds really ugly whiny-voiced.

Respectively
I'm in favor of the both similar 11-limit 5-chords:

The pentads 4:5:6:7:11 as major mode out of the triad 4:5:6,
and 10:11:12:14:15 as minor mode in 11-limit
out of 5-limit triad 10:12:15.

Try for instance to compare in that sense
the follwing both concrete realizations
of that two 5-fold ratios
in absolute pitches

400Hz : 500Hz : 600Hz : 700Hz : 1100Hz (pentadic-major-chord)
versus
500Hz : 550Hz : 600Hz : 700Hz : 1250Hz (pentadic-minor-chord)

when simultaneous produced by a sine-wave-generators
in order to judge by ear about theirs inherent well-sonority,
with the common
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimal_minor_third

700Hz : 600Hz == 7/6

in the middle voices.
bye
A.S.

🔗tetsuji katsuda <KATSUDA@...>

Hi,

My name is Tetsuji.

I think nobody knows me, but I have been a member of this mailing list for
several years.

I developed a software to check the sound of original scales. (freeware)

If you create your own scale, you can listen how it sounds easily with this
soft.

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~HB9T-KTD/music/English/Soft/scale_visualizer.htm
l

The software shows graph of the wave.

First put the basic frequency.

Then put cents value of each notes.

You can put up to 24 notes.

If you need less than 24 notes, leave zero for unused notes.

After setting, put the buttons at left.

Then you will listen to sounds.

My English is poor, but I hope my software will be useful.

Thanks,

Tetsuji

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

Konban wa, Katsuda san,

greetings from Kakamigahara, Gifu. Your English is quite good if I can judge as non-native speaker :-)

What means 24 notes? Did you mean 24 different notes in one octave (for scales with octave periodicity)? Or 24 notes of any tuning making a scale smaller or bigger than octave?

O-henji arigatou gozaimashita.

Daniel Forro yori

On 2 Nov 2009, at 7:51 PM, tetsuji katsuda wrote:

>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> My name is Tetsuji.
>
> I think nobody knows me, but I have been a member of this mailing > list for several years.
>
>
>
> I developed a software to check the sound of original scales. > (freeware)
>
>
>
> If you create your own scale, you can listen how it sounds easily > with this soft.
>
>
>
> http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~HB9T-KTD/music/English/Soft/> scale_visualizer.html
>
>
>
> The software shows graph of the wave.
>
>
>
> First put the basic frequency.
>
> Then put cents value of each notes.
>
> You can put up to 24 notes.
>
> If you need less than 24 notes, leave zero for unused notes.
>
>
>
> After setting, put the buttons at left.
>
> Then you will listen to sounds.
>
>
>
> My English is poor, but I hope my software will be useful.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tetsuji
>

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

Oops, Windows... I'm out of the game...

Daniel Forro

On 2 Nov 2009, at 7:51 PM, tetsuji katsuda wrote:

🔗tetsuji katsuda <KATSUDA@...>

Hi, this is Tetsuji.

I m sorry that you are not using Windows.

The meaning of 24 notes is...

Most western music uses 12 notes.

Some ethnic music uses 5 notes.

Other music may uses more than 12 notes.

So, if you create your own musical scale, you can select how many notes you
use.

Scale visualize can have notes up to 24.

My idea is that if the harmony of two notes sound good (consonant),

the shape of wave may be good shape.

So I developed this software.

Thanks,

Tetsuji

From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Daniel Forro
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 9:07 PM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [tuning] ScaleVisualizer

Konban wa, Katsuda san,

greetings from Kakamigahara, Gifu. Your English is quite good if I
can judge as non-native speaker :-)

What means 24 notes? Did you mean 24 different notes in one octave
(for scales with octave periodicity)? Or 24 notes of any tuning
making a scale smaller or bigger than octave?

O-henji arigatou gozaimashita.

Daniel Forro yori

On 2 Nov 2009, at 7:51 PM, tetsuji katsuda wrote:

>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> My name is Tetsuji.
>
> I think nobody knows me, but I have been a member of this mailing
> list for several years.
>
>
>
> I developed a software to check the sound of original scales.
> (freeware)
>
>
>
> If you create your own scale, you can listen how it sounds easily
> with this soft.
>
>
>
> http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~HB9T-KTD/music/English/Soft/
> scale_visualizer.html
>
>
>
> The software shows graph of the wave.
>
>
>
> First put the basic frequency.
>
> Then put cents value of each notes.
>
> You can put up to 24 notes.
>
> If you need less than 24 notes, leave zero for unused notes.
>
>
>
> After setting, put the buttons at left.
>
> Then you will listen to sounds.
>
>
>
> My English is poor, but I hope my software will be useful.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tetsuji
>

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

Thanks for explanation.

Daniel Forro

On 3 Nov 2009, at 10:17 AM, tetsuji katsuda wrote:

>
>
> Hi, this is Tetsuji.
>
>
>
>
>
> I m sorry that you are not using Windows.
>
>
>
> The meaning of 24 notes is...
>
>
>
> Most western music uses 12 notes.
>
> Some ethnic music uses 5 notes.
>
> Other music may uses more than 12 notes.
>
> So, if you create your own musical scale, you can select how many > notes you use.
>
> Scale visualize can have notes up to 24.
>
>
>
> My idea is that if the harmony of two notes sound good (consonant),
>
> the shape of wave may be good shape.
>
> So I developed this software.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tetsuji
>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Hello Tetsuji!

This is a nice program. Very nice. But cents resolution is too crude
for some purposes. Would you think of implementing 0.1 cent precision?

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Nov 3, 2009, at 3:17 AM, tetsuji katsuda wrote:

>
>
> Hi, this is Tetsuji.
>
>
> I m sorry that you are not using Windows.
>
> The meaning of 24 notes is...
>
> Most western music uses 12 notes.
> Some ethnic music uses 5 notes.
> Other music may uses more than 12 notes.
> So, if you create your own musical scale, you can select how many
> notes you use.
> Scale visualize can have notes up to 24.
>
> My idea is that if the harmony of two notes sound good (consonant),
> the shape of wave may be good shape.
> So I developed this software.
>
> Thanks,
> Tetsuji
>
>
> From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Daniel Forro
> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 9:07 PM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [tuning] ScaleVisualizer
>
>
> Konban wa, Katsuda san,
>
> greetings from Kakamigahara, Gifu. Your English is quite good if I
> can judge as non-native speaker :-)
>
> What means 24 notes? Did you mean 24 different notes in one octave
> (for scales with octave periodicity)? Or 24 notes of any tuning
> making a scale smaller or bigger than octave?
>
> O-henji arigatou gozaimashita.
>
> Daniel Forro yori
>
> On 2 Nov 2009, at 7:51 PM, tetsuji katsuda wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> >
> > My name is Tetsuji.
> >
> > I think nobody knows me, but I have been a member of this mailing
> > list for several years.
> >
> >
> >
> > I developed a software to check the sound of original scales.
> > (freeware)
> >
> >
> >
> > If you create your own scale, you can listen how it sounds easily
> > with this soft.
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~HB9T-KTD/music/English/Soft/
> > scale_visualizer.html
> >
> >
> >
> > The software shows graph of the wave.
> >
> >
> >
> > First put the basic frequency.
> >
> > Then put cents value of each notes.
> >
> > You can put up to 24 notes.
> >
> > If you need less than 24 notes, leave zero for unused notes.
> >
> >
> >
> > After setting, put the buttons at left.
> >
> > Then you will listen to sounds.
> >
> >
> >
> > My English is poor, but I hope my software will be useful.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Tetsuji
> >
>
>
>
>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Uh, I notice that one cannot have a stretched octave with the
ScaleVisualizer. Inputting 1204 cents, for example, makes the program
produce a nasty distortion.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Nov 3, 2009, at 3:17 AM, tetsuji katsuda wrote:

5:6:7:9 vs 1/7:1/6:1/5:1/4 quick statement of my impression of the difference in "feel" between these chords

🔗Ralph Hill <ASCEND11@...>

🔗a_sparschuh <a_sparschuh@...>

🔗tetsuji katsuda <KATSUDA@...>

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

🔗tetsuji katsuda <KATSUDA@...>

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>