audio examples

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the list -- I'm teaching a Microtonality and Intonation seminar (here in Chicago) and I was wondering if the list could offer a little help. I would like to play a wide variety of microtonal audio examples for the class -- e.g. Greek tunings, historical temperaments, early 20th C. microtonalists (Haba, Carrillo), Partch, Harrison, world music (Gamelan, etc.) and modern microtonalists. I don't have an internet connection in the classroom as yet, so I would need to download these to my computer.

Can anyone suggest a few websites that have audio samples available (preferably covering the major figures in microtonality and tuning)? Any other suggestions of good resources to use for a general microtonality class for masters-level students?

Thanks for your help,

Tim
Dr. Timothy Ernest Johnson
Adjunct Faculty, Roosevelt University
Adjunct Faculty, Lewis University

Hi Tim,

Thanks for posting! Most of the music of old masters
like Partch is sold on CD. Here's a list of recommended
CDs I've put together:
http://lumma.org/music/theory/Top12MicrotonalAlbums.html

Actually, it appears most of these do have DRM-free MP3
downloads available now, but you'll have to pay for them.

There's been a ton of activity from microtonal composers
on these mailing lists over the years, and most of which
is freely downloadable, or was at the time it was first
announced. The closest thing to a listing of all of it
is Andrew Heathwaite's list:
http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/MicrotonalListeningList

Here are some artist sites that stick out in my mind:

Prent Rodgers
http://home.comcast.net/~prodgers13/

Aaron Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com/works.html

Igliashon Jones
http://cota.transtagonist.org/moail.zip

Aaron Hunt
http://h-pi.com/musicFiles.html

Dave Seidel
http://www.mysterybear.net/

Carlo Serafini
http://www.seraph.it/music.html

Elaine Walker
http://www.ziaspace.com/music/

There is also a new microtonalist social network, which
plays music contributed by the community:
http://xenharmonic.ning.com/

You might like to pay a visit to the Groven Piano Project:
http://www.wmich.edu/mus-theo/groven/

Best,

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Timothy Ernest Johnson <tejohnso@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm new to the list -- I'm teaching a Microtonality and Intonation
> seminar (here in Chicago) and I was wondering if the list could
> offer a little help. I would like to play a wide variety of
> microtonal audio examples for the class -- e.g. Greek tunings,
> historical temperaments, early 20th C. microtonalists (Haba,
> Carrillo), Partch, Harrison, world music (Gamelan, etc.) and
> modern microtonalists. I don't have an internet connection in
> the classroom as yet, so I would need to download these to my
> computer.
>
> Can anyone suggest a few websites that have audio samples
> available (preferably covering the major figures in
> microtonality and tuning)? Any other suggestions of good
> resources to use for a general microtonality class for
> masters-level students?
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Tim
> Dr. Timothy Ernest Johnson
> Adjunct Faculty, Roosevelt University
> Adjunct Faculty, Lewis University
>

Timothy,

First of all, welcome to the list! Second, I really flip when I read someone
is in the midwest, let alone my town---Chicago! I'm living in Evanston,
actually. I sent you an offlist email, suggesting we get together and talk
music.

In the meantime, check out www.untwelve.org -- being in town, perhaps you
can become involved.

My site www.akjmusic.com has lots of my music, which Carl mentioned.
Andrew's listening list is very loaded with worthwhile listening, much of it
actually is more enjoyable than some of the much-touted masters like Partch,
who I never really get the itch to hear.

Another fun community (online) is xenharmonic.ning.com

I would think your class should touch on folks like Partch, Lou Harrison,
Michael Harrison (no relation), Wendy Carlos, and Toby Twining.

Cheers,
AKJ

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Timothy Ernest Johnson <
tejohnso@...> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm new to the list -- I'm teaching a Microtonality and Intonation seminar
> (here in Chicago) and I was wondering if the list could offer a little help.
> I would like to play a wide variety of microtonal audio examples for the
> class -- e.g. Greek tunings, historical temperaments, early 20th C.
> microtonalists (Haba, Carrillo), Partch, Harrison, world music (Gamelan,
> etc.) and modern microtonalists. I don't have an internet connection in the
> classroom as yet, so I would need to download these to my computer.
>
> Can anyone suggest a few websites that have audio samples available
> (preferably covering the major figures in microtonality and tuning)? Any
> other suggestions of good resources to use for a general microtonality class
> for masters-level students?
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Tim
> Dr. Timothy Ernest Johnson
> Adjunct Faculty, Roosevelt University
> Adjunct Faculty, Lewis University
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want to check out

www.lucytune.com

It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi. There are
links from there to various places where you can hear samples in
LucyTuning.

I don't think anyone has yet pointed you to Neil Haverstick -- Most,
but not all, of his music is done in microtonal scales. You can find
some of his music from his myspace page:

http://www.myspace.com/microstick

Hope that helps!

Jay

Quoting "Timothy Ernest Johnson" <tejohnso@...>:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm new to the list -- I'm teaching a Microtonality and Intonation
> seminar (here in Chicago) and I was wondering if the list could
> offer a little help. I would like to play a wide variety of
> microtonal audio examples for the class -- e.g. Greek tunings,
> historical temperaments, early 20th C. microtonalists (Haba,
> Carrillo), Partch, Harrison, world music (Gamelan, etc.) and modern
> microtonalists. I don't have an internet connection in the classroom
> as yet, so I would need to download these to my computer.
>
> Can anyone suggest a few websites that have audio samples available
> (preferably covering the major figures in microtonality and tuning)?
> Any other suggestions of good resources to use for a general
> microtonality class for masters-level students?
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Tim
> Dr. Timothy Ernest Johnson
> Adjunct Faculty, Roosevelt University
> Adjunct Faculty, Lewis University
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jrinkel@... wrote:
>
> In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
> to check out
>
> www.lucytune.com
>
> It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.

The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.

-Carl

This website has out of print records - including some of microtonal
interest.

I believe it was posted here a few months ago.

http://www.avantgardeproject.org/archive.htm

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:16 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, jrinkel@...
> wrote:
> >
> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
> > to check out
> >
> > www.lucytune.com
> >
> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>
> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

Hi Tim,

Apparently Carl forgot that my website has hundreds
of webpages which contain links to MIDI and mp3 files
of tuning examples and pieces composed by me.

http://tonalsoft.com/enc

That's the link to my Encylopedia, which is where
you'll find most of what you want.

I also have a lot of MIDI and mp3 files of microtonal
stuff which used to have links in the Encyclopedia
but the links were never reinserted after the Encyclopedia
was revamped a few years ago. I can zip them up into
a couple of big files and send them to you after i
hunt them all down.

Also, the "Files" section of this list and the Yahoo
tuning_files, tuning-math, and MakeMicroMusic lists
are chock full of audio examples from various list members.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com/tonescape.aspx
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:

> Here are some artist sites that stick out in my mind:
>
> Prent Rodgers
> http://home.comcast.net/~prodgers13/
>
> Aaron Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com/works.html
>
> Igliashon Jones
> http://cota.transtagonist.org/moail.zip
>
> Aaron Hunt
> http://h-pi.com/musicFiles.html
>
> Dave Seidel
> http://www.mysterybear.net/
>
> Carlo Serafini
> http://www.seraph.it/music.html
>
> Elaine Walker
> http://www.ziaspace.com/music/
>
> There is also a new microtonalist social network, which
> plays music contributed by the community:
> http://xenharmonic.ning.com/
>
> You might like to pay a visit to the Groven Piano Project:
> http://www.wmich.edu/mus-theo/groven/
>
> Best,
>
> -Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <joemonz@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> Apparently Carl forgot that my website has hundreds
> of webpages which contain links to MIDI and mp3 files
> of tuning examples and pieces composed by me.

I didn't forget.

-Carl

Dear Timothy,

There is some stuff in the APG project (http://www.avantgardeproject.org/
), e,g, there are recordings of E Sims and B Johnston. Also, it might
be worth checking for torrents. I even saw the Welltuned Pianosomewhere.

Best
Torsten

On 01.10.2009, at 16:46, Timothy Ernest Johnson wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm new to the list -- I'm teaching a Microtonality and Intonation
> seminar (here in Chicago) and I was wondering if the list could
> offer a little help. I would like to play a wide variety of
> microtonal audio examples for the class -- e.g. Greek tunings,
> historical temperaments, early 20th C. microtonalists (Haba,
> Carrillo), Partch, Harrison, world music (Gamelan, etc.) and modern
> microtonalists. I don't have an internet connection in the classroom
> as yet, so I would need to download these to my computer.
>
> Can anyone suggest a few websites that have audio samples available
> (preferably covering the major figures in microtonality and tuning)?
> Any other suggestions of good resources to use for a general
> microtonality class for masters-level students?
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Tim
> Dr. Timothy Ernest Johnson
> Adjunct Faculty, Roosevelt University
> Adjunct Faculty, Lewis University
>
>
>

it is convenient that it works in a meantone pattern. That makes it easy to notate, conceptualise the harmony, and to use for educated musicians.

As for the snake oil (marketing?):

Snake oil seems to refer to an ancient Chinese remedy; after all the Chinese do represent the largest market for just about everything nowadays;-)

Numerology?

Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?

BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous challenge which you reneged on a couple of years ago.

Have fun with it!

C.L.

On 2 Oct 2009, at 03:16, Carl Lumma wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jrinkel@... wrote:
> >
> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
> > to check out
> >
> > www.lucytune.com
> >
> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>
> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>
Charles Lucy
lucy@...

- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -

for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com

For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Hey, what was the $50 challenge? I forget....

I do think that so-called LucyTuning© sounds good for certain things, BTW.
But I have to agree that _why_ it sounds good has pretty much nothing to do
with PI. In other words, people don't start floating out of their seats,
arms outstretched in mystical oneness with creation, surrounded by
incandescent blue orbs of cosmic energy, when the major third is 2^(1/PI),
as opposed to say 28 steps of 88-equal.....in 99.99% of cases, i.e. most
music that doesn't have sustained chords 5 minutes long where you could
measure things with an oscilloscope and software, *as it happens*, I highly
doubt anyone could tell the difference.

AKJ

On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:

>
>
> it is convenient that it works in a meantone pattern. That makes it easy to
> notate, conceptualise the harmony, and to use for educated musicians.
> As for the snake oil (marketing?):
>
> Snake oil seems to refer to an ancient Chinese remedy; after all the
> Chinese do represent the largest market for just about everything
> nowadays;-)
>
> Numerology?
>
> Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?
>
> BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous challenge
> which you reneged on a couple of years ago.
>
> Have fun with it!
>
> C.L.
>
> On 2 Oct 2009, at 03:16, Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, jrinkel@...
> wrote:
> >
> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
> > to check out
> >
> > www.lucytune.com
> >
> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>
> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>
> -Carl
>
>
> Charles Lucy
> lucy@...
>
> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>
> for information on LucyTuning go to:
> http://www.lucytune.com
>
> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>
>

--

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> This website has out of print records - including some of microtonal
> interest.
>
> I believe it was posted here a few months ago.
>
> http://www.avantgardeproject.org/archive.htm

The two microtonal releases I know of are

AGP 7 - Ezra Sims
AGP 9 - Ben Johnston

There may be others.

-Carl

Partch (sp?) is in there as well.

On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > This website has out of print records - including some of microtonal
> > interest.
> >
> > I believe it was posted here a few months ago.
> >
> > http://www.avantgardeproject.org/archive.htm
>
> The two microtonal releases I know of are
>
> AGP 7 - Ezra Sims
> AGP 9 - Ben Johnston
>
> There may be others.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

> Numerology?
>
> Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?

You can look it up in wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology

Here's your "New to LucyTuning?" page:
http://lucytune.com/new_to_lt/pitch_01.html

>IS THIS THE LOST MUSIC OF THE SPHERES?

"Music of the spheres" is a concept in numerology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_the_spheres
"The Greek mathematician and astronomer Pythagoras is frequently
credited with originating the concept, which stemmed from his
semi-mystical, semi-mathematical philosophy and its associated
system of numerology of Pythagoreanism."

The rest of the page focuses on Pi having to do with
lucytuning. The fact that the Harrison fifth can be
computed from Pi is musically meaningless, as you have
practically admitted on this list several times in the
past.

> BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous
> challenge which you reneged on a couple of years ago.

On which you reneged, you mean.

-Carl

Aaron wrote:

> I do think that so-called LucyTuning© sounds good for certain
> things, BTW. But I have to agree that _why_ it sounds good has
> pretty much nothing to do with PI. In other words, people don't
> start floating out of their seats, arms outstretched in mystical
> oneness with creation, surrounded by incandescent blue orbs of
> cosmic energy, when the major third is 2^(1/PI)

Aaron, you're forgetting that the beat rates in LucyTuning
uniquely stimulate alpha EEG rhythms in humans. That's really
why LucyTuning works. Also, Pi captures something hitherto
unknown about the "spherical wavefronts of sound", which is why
LucyTuned intervals are more consonant than JI. JI actually
approximates LucyTuning! I bet you didn't know that. Please
post a retraction, Aaron.

-Carl

Aaron,

I also suspect PI has little to do with the actual phenomenon of why a
381-384 cent major third sounds just as sweet as a 386 cent major
third. Note, that Rauf Yekta pointed out the rast-segah interval to be
384 cents, not 386 cents, claiming that the ear is sensitive to the
minute difference of 2 cents.

I don't know why, but I also experience 5/4 as an inappropriate segah.
It's just too high. There must be some logical psycho-acoustical
reason behind it. Through trial and error, I located the desired
interval to be somewhere about 382 cents.

Any thoughts?

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Oct 2, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:

>
>
> Hey, what was the $50 challenge? I forget....
>
> I do think that so-called LucyTuning© sounds good for certain
> things, BTW. But I have to agree that _why_ it sounds good has
> pretty much nothing to do with PI. In other words, people don't
> start floating out of their seats, arms outstretched in mystical
> oneness with creation, surrounded by incandescent blue orbs of
> cosmic energy, when the major third is 2^(1/PI), as opposed to say
> 28 steps of 88-equal.....in 99.99% of cases, i.e. most music that
> doesn't have sustained chords 5 minutes long where you could measure
> things with an oscilloscope and software, *as it happens*, I highly
> doubt anyone could tell the difference.
>
> AKJ
>
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> it is convenient that it works in a meantone pattern. That makes it
> easy to notate, conceptualise the harmony, and to use for educated
> musicians.
>
> As for the snake oil (marketing?):
>
> Snake oil seems to refer to an ancient Chinese remedy; after all
> the Chinese do represent the largest market for just about
> everything nowadays;-)
>
> Numerology?
>
> Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?
>
> BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous
> challenge which you reneged on a couple of years ago.
>
> Have fun with it!
>
> C.L.
>
> On 2 Oct 2009, at 03:16, Carl Lumma wrote:
>
>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jrinkel@... wrote:
>> >
>> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
>> > to check out
>> >
>> > www.lucytune.com
>> >
>> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>>
>> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
>> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
>> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>>
>> -Carl
>>
>>
>
> Charles Lucy
> lucy@lucytune.com
>
> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>
> for information on LucyTuning go to:
> http://www.lucytune.com
>
> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org
>
>
>
>

On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>wrote:

>
>
> Aaron,
>
> I also suspect PI has little to do with the actual phenomenon of why a
> 381-384 cent major third sounds just as sweet as a 386 cent major third.
> Note, that Rauf Yekta pointed out the rast-segah interval to be 384 cents,
> not 386 cents, claiming that the ear is sensitive to the minute difference
> of 2 cents.
>
>
That's a schismatic (Pythagorean) diminished 4th, so that makes sense.

> I don't know why, but I also experience 5/4 as an inappropriate segah. It's
> just too high. There must be some logical psycho-acoustical reason behind
> it. Through trial and error, I located the desired interval to be somewhere
> about 382 cents.
>
>
>
Any thoughts?
>

My thoughts? You are a very sensitive musician with keen hearing, brought up
in a cultural/musical tradition you understand well, and your instincts
favor a Pythagorean diminshed 4th, rather than a 5/4!

I suspect that this is also is variable in certain lab conditions like
tempo, etc. IOW, there might be 'lab' conditions possible where you'd also
confuse the two 3rds.

Best,
Aaron.

> Cordially,
> Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> On Oct 2, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>
>
>
> Hey, what was the $50 challenge? I forget....
>
> I do think that so-called LucyTuning© sounds good for certain things, BTW.
> But I have to agree that _why_ it sounds good has pretty much nothing to do
> with PI. In other words, people don't start floating out of their seats,
> arms outstretched in mystical oneness with creation, surrounded by
> incandescent blue orbs of cosmic energy, when the major third is 2^(1/PI),
> as opposed to say 28 steps of 88-equal.....in 99.99% of cases, i.e. most
> music that doesn't have sustained chords 5 minutes long where you could
> measure things with an oscilloscope and software, *as it happens*, I highly
> doubt anyone could tell the difference.
>
> AKJ
>
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> it is convenient that it works in a meantone pattern. That makes it easy
>> to notate, conceptualise the harmony, and to use for educated musicians.
>> As for the snake oil (marketing?):
>>
>> Snake oil seems to refer to an ancient Chinese remedy; after all the
>> Chinese do represent the largest market for just about everything
>> nowadays;-)
>>
>> Numerology?
>>
>> Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?
>>
>> BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous challenge
>> which you reneged on a couple of years ago.
>>
>> Have fun with it!
>>
>> C.L.
>>
>> On 2 Oct 2009, at 03:16, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>
>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, jrinkel@...
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
>> > to check out
>> >
>> > www.lucytune.com
>> >
>> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>>
>> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
>> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
>> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>>
>> -Carl
>>
>>
>> Charles Lucy
>> lucy@...
>>
>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>
>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>
>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

> > BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous
> > challenge which you reneged on a couple of years ago.
>
> On which you reneged, you mean.

I knew Charles blew it on this, but I had to go back and look
up the thread to remember how. Sure enough, I suggested the
question of whether I owed Charles $50 be put up to a poll on
metatuning, and he agreed. If you're a member of metatuning,
you can see the results of that poll here:
/metatuning/surveys?id=12779494

I even suspect the one vote for Charles was made by Charles
himself. But anyway, agreeing to put something up for a vote,
ignoring the vote, and then bringing it up over a year later
is definitely impressive.

In the slightly-less-than-a-year-ago department, Charles
offered to render God Save the King in both LucyTuning and
Woolhouse meantone, if I supplied the figures. This was
in February:
/tuning/topicId_81163.html#81328?var=1&l=1

Still nothing, Charles?

-Carl

Aaron, thank you for sharing your thoughts. But why does the ear of a
maqam musician incline toward 8192/6561 instead of 5/4? I have many
times tried to accompany an actual performance with either 53-tET and
41-tET, and observed the latter to agree with practice more.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Oct 2, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:

>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com
> > wrote:
>
>
> Aaron,
>
> I also suspect PI has little to do with the actual phenomenon of why
> a 381-384 cent major third sounds just as sweet as a 386 cent major
> third. Note, that Rauf Yekta pointed out the rast-segah interval to
> be 384 cents, not 386 cents, claiming that the ear is sensitive to
> the minute difference of 2 cents.
>
>
> That's a schismatic (Pythagorean) diminished 4th, so that makes sense.
>
>
>
> I don't know why, but I also experience 5/4 as an inappropriate
> segah. It's just too high. There must be some logical psycho-
> acoustical reason behind it. Through trial and error, I located the
> desired interval to be somewhere about 382 cents.
>
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
> My thoughts? You are a very sensitive musician with keen hearing,
> brought up in a cultural/musical tradition you understand well, and
> your instincts favor a Pythagorean diminshed 4th, rather than a 5/4!
>
> I suspect that this is also is variable in certain lab conditions
> like tempo, etc. IOW, there might be 'lab' conditions possible where
> you'd also confuse the two 3rds.
>
> Best,
> Aaron.
>
>
> Cordially,
> Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> On Oct 2, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hey, what was the $50 challenge? I forget....
>>
>> I do think that so-called LucyTuning© sounds good for certain
>> things, BTW. But I have to agree that _why_ it sounds good has
>> pretty much nothing to do with PI. In other words, people don't
>> start floating out of their seats, arms outstretched in mystical
>> oneness with creation, surrounded by incandescent blue orbs of
>> cosmic energy, when the major third is 2^(1/PI), as opposed to say
>> 28 steps of 88-equal.....in 99.99% of cases, i.e. most music that
>> doesn't have sustained chords 5 minutes long where you could
>> measure things with an oscilloscope and software, *as it happens*,
>> I highly doubt anyone could tell the difference.
>>
>> AKJ
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Charles Lucy <lucy@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> it is convenient that it works in a meantone pattern. That makes it
>> easy to notate, conceptualise the harmony, and to use for educated
>> musicians.
>>
>> As for the snake oil (marketing?):
>>
>> Snake oil seems to refer to an ancient Chinese remedy; after all
>> the Chinese do represent the largest market for just about
>> everything nowadays;-)
>>
>> Numerology?
>>
>> Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?
>>
>> BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous
>> challenge which you reneged on a couple of years ago.
>>
>> Have fun with it!
>>
>> C.L.
>>
>> On 2 Oct 2009, at 03:16, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>
>>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jrinkel@... wrote:
>>> >
>>> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
>>> > to check out
>>> >
>>> > www.lucytune.com
>>> >
>>> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>>>
>>> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
>>> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
>>> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>>>
>>> -Carl
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Charles Lucy
>> lucy@...
>>
>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>
>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>
>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org
>
>
>
>

Oz,

My ad-hoc theory is that you are probably noticing the subtle effects of
having all the melodic step sizes be similar, and/or multiples of each
other, due to the chain-of-fifths? Or, you prefer to notice a slight beating
in the third.

I'm really curious how scientifically you have tested your perception of
this....do you have a 100% success rate? Perhaps you can set up a kind of
blind listening test?

All best,
Aaron.

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>wrote:

>
>
> Aaron, thank you for sharing your thoughts. But why does the ear of a maqam
> musician incline toward 8192/6561 instead of 5/4? I have many times tried to
> accompany an actual performance with either 53-tET and 41-tET, and observed
> the latter to agree with practice more.
>
> Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> On Oct 2, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Aaron,
>>
>> I also suspect PI has little to do with the actual phenomenon of why a
>> 381-384 cent major third sounds just as sweet as a 386 cent major third.
>> Note, that Rauf Yekta pointed out the rast-segah interval to be 384 cents,
>> not 386 cents, claiming that the ear is sensitive to the minute difference
>> of 2 cents.
>>
>>
> That's a schismatic (Pythagorean) diminished 4th, so that makes sense.
>
>
>
>
>> I don't know why, but I also experience 5/4 as an inappropriate segah.
>> It's just too high. There must be some logical psycho-acoustical reason
>> behind it. Through trial and error, I located the desired interval to be
>> somewhere about 382 cents.
>>
>>
>>
> Any thoughts?
>>
>
>
> My thoughts? You are a very sensitive musician with keen hearing, brought
> up in a cultural/musical tradition you understand well, and your instincts
> favor a Pythagorean diminshed 4th, rather than a 5/4!
>
> I suspect that this is also is variable in certain lab conditions like
> tempo, etc. IOW, there might be 'lab' conditions possible where you'd also
> confuse the two 3rds.
>
> Best,
> Aaron.
>
>
>
>> Cordially,
>> Oz.
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hey, what was the $50 challenge? I forget....
>>
>> I do think that so-called LucyTuning© sounds good for certain things, BTW.
>> But I have to agree that _why_ it sounds good has pretty much nothing to do
>> with PI. In other words, people don't start floating out of their seats,
>> arms outstretched in mystical oneness with creation, surrounded by
>> incandescent blue orbs of cosmic energy, when the major third is 2^(1/PI),
>> as opposed to say 28 steps of 88-equal.....in 99.99% of cases, i.e. most
>> music that doesn't have sustained chords 5 minutes long where you could
>> measure things with an oscilloscope and software, *as it happens*, I highly
>> doubt anyone could tell the difference.
>>
>> AKJ
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> it is convenient that it works in a meantone pattern. That makes it easy
>>> to notate, conceptualise the harmony, and to use for educated musicians.
>>> As for the snake oil (marketing?):
>>>
>>> Snake oil seems to refer to an ancient Chinese remedy; after all the
>>> Chinese do represent the largest market for just about everything
>>> nowadays;-)
>>>
>>> Numerology?
>>>
>>> Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?
>>>
>>> BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous challenge
>>> which you reneged on a couple of years ago.
>>>
>>> Have fun with it!
>>>
>>> C.L.
>>>
>>> On 2 Oct 2009, at 03:16, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>>
>>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, jrinkel@...
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
>>> > to check out
>>> >
>>> > www.lucytune.com
>>> >
>>> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>>>
>>> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
>>> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
>>> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>>>
>>> -Carl
>>>
>>>
>>> Charles Lucy
>>> lucy@...
>>>
>>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>>
>>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>>
>>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

Dear Aaron,

Melodic step-sizes in a maqam scale are, most of the time, not abiding
MOS. There may be three or more different step sizes. Consider this
Hüzzam:

Ed 120 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 120 C 294 D# 84 Ed

See, there are 6 different step sizes, with Ed at 56/45.

Replacing 15:14 between Ed-F and Bd-C with 16:15 will ruin the rast-
segah relationship. Maybe the ear is inclining towards 56/45 instead
of 5/4? But I fear that is too low. The proper perde segah should be
at 96/77:

Ed 116 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 116 C 294 D# 88 Ed

That's an even better Hüzzam, again with 6 different step sizes, none
of which is a multiple of another.

While there are fourth and fifth relationships between given tones,
this scale is not constructed via a chain of fifths.

Now I wonder, why 96/77 instead of 5/4 (if we are to think in terms of
JI)? Or, why the beating of the major third?

Aaron, this is not restricted to my taste, it is a phenomenon of Maqam
music according to my observations. It may not be a scientific one,
for I have not tested the rast-segah relatinship in a laboratory
condition with test subjects and equipment, but it is rather obvious
to one who listens to, say, "Ey gul-i bag eda" by Dede Efendi in
Hüzzam:

http://www.vbox7.com/play:feba93b8?r=google

Can you also observe the low perde segah?

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:31 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:

>
>
> Oz,
>
> My ad-hoc theory is that you are probably noticing the subtle
> effects of having all the melodic step sizes be similar, and/or
> multiples of each other, due to the chain-of-fifths? Or, you prefer
> to notice a slight beating in the third.
>
> I'm really curious how scientifically you have tested your
> perception of this....do you have a 100% success rate? Perhaps you
> can set up a kind of blind listening test?
>
> All best,
> Aaron.
>
> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Ozan Yarman
> <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
>
> Aaron, thank you for sharing your thoughts. But why does the ear of
> a maqam musician incline toward 8192/6561 instead of 5/4? I have
> many times tried to accompany an actual performance with either 53-
> tET and 41-tET, and observed the latter to agree with practice more.
>
> Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> On Oct 2, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> Aaron,
>>
>> I also suspect PI has little to do with the actual phenomenon of
>> why a 381-384 cent major third sounds just as sweet as a 386 cent
>> major third. Note, that Rauf Yekta pointed out the rast-segah
>> interval to be 384 cents, not 386 cents, claiming that the ear is
>> sensitive to the minute difference of 2 cents.
>>
>>
>> That's a schismatic (Pythagorean) diminished 4th, so that makes
>> sense.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't know why, but I also experience 5/4 as an inappropriate
>> segah. It's just too high. There must be some logical psycho-
>> acoustical reason behind it. Through trial and error, I located the
>> desired interval to be somewhere about 382 cents.
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>
>> My thoughts? You are a very sensitive musician with keen hearing,
>> brought up in a cultural/musical tradition you understand well, and
>> your instincts favor a Pythagorean diminshed 4th, rather than a 5/4!
>>
>> I suspect that this is also is variable in certain lab conditions
>> like tempo, etc. IOW, there might be 'lab' conditions possible
>> where you'd also confuse the two 3rds.
>>
>> Best,
>> Aaron.
>>
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Oz.
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hey, what was the $50 challenge? I forget....
>>>
>>> I do think that so-called LucyTuning© sounds good for certain
>>> things, BTW. But I have to agree that _why_ it sounds good has
>>> pretty much nothing to do with PI. In other words, people don't
>>> start floating out of their seats, arms outstretched in mystical
>>> oneness with creation, surrounded by incandescent blue orbs of
>>> cosmic energy, when the major third is 2^(1/PI), as opposed to say
>>> 28 steps of 88-equal.....in 99.99% of cases, i.e. most music that
>>> doesn't have sustained chords 5 minutes long where you could
>>> measure things with an oscilloscope and software, *as it happens*,
>>> I highly doubt anyone could tell the difference.
>>>
>>> AKJ
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> it is convenient that it works in a meantone pattern. That makes
>>> it easy to notate, conceptualise the harmony, and to use for
>>> educated musicians.
>>>
>>> As for the snake oil (marketing?):
>>>
>>> Snake oil seems to refer to an ancient Chinese remedy; after all
>>> the Chinese do represent the largest market for just about
>>> everything nowadays;-)
>>>
>>> Numerology?
>>>
>>> Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?
>>>
>>> BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous
>>> challenge which you reneged on a couple of years ago.
>>>
>>> Have fun with it!
>>>
>>> C.L.
>>>
>>> On 2 Oct 2009, at 03:16, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>>
>>>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jrinkel@... wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
>>>> > to check out
>>>> >
>>>> > www.lucytune.com
>>>> >
>>>> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>>>>
>>>> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
>>>> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
>>>> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>>>>
>>>> -Carl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Charles Lucy
>>> lucy@...
>>>
>>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>>
>>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>>
>>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org
>
>
>
>

Interesting Oz.

I shall attempt to see what Melodyne DNA beta makes of it.

On 6 Oct 2009, at 22:23, Ozan Yarman wrote:

>
> Dear Aaron,
>
> Melodic step-sizes in a maqam scale are, most of the time, not
> abiding MOS. There may be three or more different step sizes.
> Consider this Hüzzam:
>
> Ed 120 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 120 C 294 D# 84 Ed
>
> See, there are 6 different step sizes, with Ed at 56/45.
>
> Replacing 15:14 between Ed-F and Bd-C with 16:15 will ruin the rast-
> segah relationship. Maybe the ear is inclining towards 56/45 instead
> of 5/4? But I fear that is too low. The proper perde segah should be
> at 96/77:
>
> Ed 116 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 116 C 294 D# 88 Ed
>
> That's an even better Hüzzam, again with 6 different step sizes,
> none of which is a multiple of another.
>
> While there are fourth and fifth relationships between given tones,
> this scale is not constructed via a chain of fifths.
>
> Now I wonder, why 96/77 instead of 5/4 (if we are to think in terms
> of JI)? Or, why the beating of the major third?
>
> Aaron, this is not restricted to my taste, it is a phenomenon of
> Maqam music according to my observations. It may not be a scientific
> one, for I have not tested the rast-segah relatinship in a
> laboratory condition with test subjects and equipment, but it is
> rather obvious to one who listens to, say, "Ey gul-i bag eda" by
> Dede Efendi in Hüzzam:
>
> http://www.vbox7.com/play:feba93b8?r=google
>
> Can you also observe the low perde segah?
>
> Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:31 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Oz,
>>
>> My ad-hoc theory is that you are probably noticing the subtle
>> effects of having all the melodic step sizes be similar, and/or
>> multiples of each other, due to the chain-of-fifths? Or, you prefer
>> to notice a slight beating in the third.
>>
>> I'm really curious how scientifically you have tested your
>> perception of this....do you have a 100% success rate? Perhaps you
>> can set up a kind of blind listening test?
>>
>> All best,
>> Aaron.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> Aaron, thank you for sharing your thoughts. But why does the ear of
>> a maqam musician incline toward 8192/6561 instead of 5/4? I have
>> many times tried to accompany an actual performance with either 53-
>> tET and 41-tET, and observed the latter to agree with practice more.
>>
>> Oz.
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Aaron,
>>>
>>> I also suspect PI has little to do with the actual phenomenon of >>> why a 381-384 cent major third sounds just as sweet as a 386 cent
>>> major third. Note, that Rauf Yekta pointed out the rast-segah
>>> interval to be 384 cents, not 386 cents, claiming that the ear is
>>> sensitive to the minute difference of 2 cents.
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a schismatic (Pythagorean) diminished 4th, so that makes
>>> sense.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know why, but I also experience 5/4 as an inappropriate
>>> segah. It's just too high. There must be some logical psycho-
>>> acoustical reason behind it. Through trial and error, I located
>>> the desired interval to be somewhere about 382 cents.
>>>
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>>
>>> My thoughts? You are a very sensitive musician with keen hearing,
>>> brought up in a cultural/musical tradition you understand well,
>>> and your instincts favor a Pythagorean diminshed 4th, rather than
>>> a 5/4!
>>>
>>> I suspect that this is also is variable in certain lab conditions
>>> like tempo, etc. IOW, there might be 'lab' conditions possible
>>> where you'd also confuse the two 3rds.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Aaron.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cordially,
>>> Oz.
>>>
>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>
>>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hey, what was the $50 challenge? I forget....
>>>>
>>>> I do think that so-called LucyTuning© sounds good for certain
>>>> things, BTW. But I have to agree that _why_ it sounds good has
>>>> pretty much nothing to do with PI. In other words, people don't
>>>> start floating out of their seats, arms outstretched in mystical
>>>> oneness with creation, surrounded by incandescent blue orbs of
>>>> cosmic energy, when the major third is 2^(1/PI), as opposed to
>>>> say 28 steps of 88-equal.....in 99.99% of cases, i.e. most music
>>>> that doesn't have sustained chords 5 minutes long where you could
>>>> measure things with an oscilloscope and software, *as it
>>>> happens*, I highly doubt anyone could tell the difference.
>>>>
>>>> AKJ
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> it is convenient that it works in a meantone pattern. That makes
>>>> it easy to notate, conceptualise the harmony, and to use for
>>>> educated musicians.
>>>>
>>>> As for the snake oil (marketing?):
>>>>
>>>> Snake oil seems to refer to an ancient Chinese remedy; after all
>>>> the Chinese do represent the largest market for just about
>>>> everything nowadays;-)
>>>>
>>>> Numerology?
>>>>
>>>> Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?
>>>>
>>>> BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous
>>>> challenge which you reneged on a couple of years ago.
>>>>
>>>> Have fun with it!
>>>>
>>>> C.L.
>>>>
>>>> On 2 Oct 2009, at 03:16, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jrinkel@... wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
>>>>> > to check out
>>>>> >
>>>>> > www.lucytune.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>>>>>
>>>>> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
>>>>> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
>>>>> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Carl
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Charles Lucy
>>>> lucy@...
>>>>
>>>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>>>
>>>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>>>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>>>
>>>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>>>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Charles Lucy
lucy@...

- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -

for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com

For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

D4 and below, Melodyne tells me that everything is 12edo within ten
cents, and mostly within 5.

Above D4 it is all over the place.
It'll take me a while to get the other values from the flv, but when I
get them I'll let you know (if anyone is interested;-)

On 6 Oct 2009, at 22:23, Ozan Yarman wrote:

>
> Dear Aaron,
>
> Melodic step-sizes in a maqam scale are, most of the time, not
> abiding MOS. There may be three or more different step sizes.
> Consider this Hüzzam:
>
> Ed 120 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 120 C 294 D# 84 Ed
>
> See, there are 6 different step sizes, with Ed at 56/45.
>
> Replacing 15:14 between Ed-F and Bd-C with 16:15 will ruin the rast-> segah relationship. Maybe the ear is inclining towards 56/45 instead
> of 5/4? But I fear that is too low. The proper perde segah should be
> at 96/77:
>
> Ed 116 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 116 C 294 D# 88 Ed
>
> That's an even better Hüzzam, again with 6 different step sizes,
> none of which is a multiple of another.
>
> While there are fourth and fifth relationships between given tones,
> this scale is not constructed via a chain of fifths.
>
> Now I wonder, why 96/77 instead of 5/4 (if we are to think in terms
> of JI)? Or, why the beating of the major third?
>
> Aaron, this is not restricted to my taste, it is a phenomenon of
> Maqam music according to my observations. It may not be a scientific
> one, for I have not tested the rast-segah relatinship in a
> laboratory condition with test subjects and equipment, but it is
> rather obvious to one who listens to, say, "Ey gul-i bag eda" by
> Dede Efendi in Hüzzam:
>
> http://www.vbox7.com/play:feba93b8?r=google
>
> Can you also observe the low perde segah?
>
> Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:31 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Oz,
>>
>> My ad-hoc theory is that you are probably noticing the subtle
>> effects of having all the melodic step sizes be similar, and/or
>> multiples of each other, due to the chain-of-fifths? Or, you prefer
>> to notice a slight beating in the third.
>>
>> I'm really curious how scientifically you have tested your
>> perception of this....do you have a 100% success rate? Perhaps you
>> can set up a kind of blind listening test?
>>
>> All best,
>> Aaron.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> Aaron, thank you for sharing your thoughts. But why does the ear of
>> a maqam musician incline toward 8192/6561 instead of 5/4? I have
>> many times tried to accompany an actual performance with either 53-
>> tET and 41-tET, and observed the latter to agree with practice more.
>>
>> Oz.
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Aaron,
>>>
>>> I also suspect PI has little to do with the actual phenomenon of
>>> why a 381-384 cent major third sounds just as sweet as a 386 cent
>>> major third. Note, that Rauf Yekta pointed out the rast-segah
>>> interval to be 384 cents, not 386 cents, claiming that the ear is
>>> sensitive to the minute difference of 2 cents.
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a schismatic (Pythagorean) diminished 4th, so that makes>>> sense.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know why, but I also experience 5/4 as an inappropriate
>>> segah. It's just too high. There must be some logical psycho-
>>> acoustical reason behind it. Through trial and error, I located
>>> the desired interval to be somewhere about 382 cents.
>>>
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>>
>>> My thoughts? You are a very sensitive musician with keen hearing,
>>> brought up in a cultural/musical tradition you understand well,
>>> and your instincts favor a Pythagorean diminshed 4th, rather than
>>> a 5/4!
>>>
>>> I suspect that this is also is variable in certain lab conditions
>>> like tempo, etc. IOW, there might be 'lab' conditions possible
>>> where you'd also confuse the two 3rds.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Aaron.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cordially,
>>> Oz.
>>>
>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>
>>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hey, what was the $50 challenge? I forget....
>>>>
>>>> I do think that so-called LucyTuning© sounds good for certain
>>>> things, BTW. But I have to agree that _why_ it sounds good has >>>> pretty much nothing to do with PI. In other words, people don't
>>>> start floating out of their seats, arms outstretched in mystical
>>>> oneness with creation, surrounded by incandescent blue orbs of
>>>> cosmic energy, when the major third is 2^(1/PI), as opposed to
>>>> say 28 steps of 88-equal.....in 99.99% of cases, i.e. most music
>>>> that doesn't have sustained chords 5 minutes long where you could
>>>> measure things with an oscilloscope and software, *as it
>>>> happens*, I highly doubt anyone could tell the difference.
>>>>
>>>> AKJ
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Charles Lucy <lucy@...>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> it is convenient that it works in a meantone pattern. That makes
>>>> it easy to notate, conceptualise the harmony, and to use for
>>>> educated musicians.
>>>>
>>>> As for the snake oil (marketing?):
>>>>
>>>> Snake oil seems to refer to an ancient Chinese remedy; after all
>>>> the Chinese do represent the largest market for just about
>>>> everything nowadays;-)
>>>>
>>>> Numerology?
>>>>
>>>> Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?
>>>>
>>>> BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous
>>>> challenge which you reneged on a couple of years ago.
>>>>
>>>> Have fun with it!
>>>>
>>>> C.L.
>>>>
>>>> On 2 Oct 2009, at 03:16, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jrinkel@... wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
>>>>> > to check out
>>>>> >
>>>>> > www.lucytune.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>>>>>
>>>>> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
>>>>> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
>>>>> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Carl
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Charles Lucy
>>>> lucy@...
>>>>
>>>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>>>
>>>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>>>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>>>
>>>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>>>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Charles Lucy
lucy@lucytune.com

- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -

for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com

For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

I'm interested,

And Charles, could I talk you into putting a Lassus or Palestrina piece in
Melodyne DNA - to see if in practice the 4ths are pure or "dissonant"?

If you need a snippet of each composer I can provide it.

Thanks,

Chris

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com> wrote:

>
>
> D4 and below, Melodyne tells me that everything is 12edo within ten cents,
> and mostly within 5.
>
> Above D4 it is all over the place.
> It'll take me a while to get the other values from the flv, but when I get
> them I'll let you know (if anyone is interested;-)
>
>
> On 6 Oct 2009, at 22:23, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>
>
> Dear Aaron,
>
> Melodic step-sizes in a maqam scale are, most of the time, not abiding MOS.
> There may be three or more different step sizes. Consider this Hüzzam:
>
> Ed 120 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 120 C 294 D# 84 Ed
>
> See, there are 6 different step sizes, with Ed at 56/45.
>
> Replacing 15:14 between Ed-F and Bd-C with 16:15 will ruin the rast-segah
> relationship. Maybe the ear is inclining towards 56/45 instead of 5/4? But I
> fear that is too low. The proper perde segah should be at 96/77:
>
> Ed 116 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 116 C 294 D# 88 Ed
>
> That's an even better Hüzzam, again with 6 different step sizes, none of
> which is a multiple of another.
>
> While there are fourth and fifth relationships between given tones, this
> scale is not constructed via a chain of fifths.
>
> Now I wonder, why 96/77 instead of 5/4 (if we are to think in terms of JI)?
> Or, why the beating of the major third?
>
> Aaron, this is not restricted to my taste, it is a phenomenon of Maqam
> music according to my observations. It may not be a scientific one, for I
> have not tested the rast-segah relatinship in a laboratory condition with
> test subjects and equipment, but it is rather obvious to one who listens to,
> say, "Ey gul-i bag eda" by Dede Efendi in Hüzzam:
>
> http://www.vbox7.com/play:feba93b8?r=google
>
> Can you also observe the low perde segah?
>
> Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:31 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>
>
>
> Oz,
>
> My ad-hoc theory is that you are probably noticing the subtle effects of
> having all the melodic step sizes be similar, and/or multiples of each
> other, due to the chain-of-fifths? Or, you prefer to notice a slight beating
> in the third.
>
> I'm really curious how scientifically you have tested your perception of
> this....do you have a 100% success rate? Perhaps you can set up a kind of
> blind listening test?
>
> All best,
> Aaron.
>
> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Aaron, thank you for sharing your thoughts. But why does the ear of a
>> maqam musician incline toward 8192/6561 instead of 5/4? I have many times
>> tried to accompany an actual performance with either 53-tET and 41-tET, and
>> observed the latter to agree with practice more.
>>
>> Oz.
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Aaron,
>>>
>>> I also suspect PI has little to do with the actual phenomenon of why a
>>> 381-384 cent major third sounds just as sweet as a 386 cent major third.
>>> Note, that Rauf Yekta pointed out the rast-segah interval to be 384 cents,
>>> not 386 cents, claiming that the ear is sensitive to the minute difference
>>> of 2 cents.
>>>
>>>
>> That's a schismatic (Pythagorean) diminished 4th, so that makes sense.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I don't know why, but I also experience 5/4 as an inappropriate segah.
>>> It's just too high. There must be some logical psycho-acoustical reason
>>> behind it. Through trial and error, I located the desired interval to be
>>> somewhere about 382 cents.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>
>>
>> My thoughts? You are a very sensitive musician with keen hearing, brought
>> up in a cultural/musical tradition you understand well, and your instincts
>> favor a Pythagorean diminshed 4th, rather than a 5/4!
>>
>> I suspect that this is also is variable in certain lab conditions like
>> tempo, etc. IOW, there might be 'lab' conditions possible where you'd also
>> confuse the two 3rds.
>>
>> Best,
>> Aaron.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Cordially,
>>> Oz.
>>>
>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>
>>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hey, what was the $50 challenge? I forget....
>>>
>>> I do think that so-called LucyTuning© sounds good for certain things,
>>> BTW. But I have to agree that _why_ it sounds good has pretty much nothing
>>> to do with PI. In other words, people don't start floating out of their
>>> seats, arms outstretched in mystical oneness with creation, surrounded by
>>> incandescent blue orbs of cosmic energy, when the major third is 2^(1/PI),
>>> as opposed to say 28 steps of 88-equal.....in 99.99% of cases, i.e. most
>>> music that doesn't have sustained chords 5 minutes long where you could
>>> measure things with an oscilloscope and software, *as it happens*, I highly
>>> doubt anyone could tell the difference.
>>>
>>> AKJ
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> it is convenient that it works in a meantone pattern. That makes it easy
>>>> to notate, conceptualise the harmony, and to use for educated musicians.
>>>> As for the snake oil (marketing?):
>>>>
>>>> Snake oil seems to refer to an ancient Chinese remedy; after all the
>>>> Chinese do represent the largest market for just about everything
>>>> nowadays;-)
>>>>
>>>> Numerology?
>>>>
>>>> Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?
>>>>
>>>> BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous challenge
>>>> which you reneged on a couple of years ago.
>>>>
>>>> Have fun with it!
>>>>
>>>> C.L.
>>>>
>>>> On 2 Oct 2009, at 03:16, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>>>
>>>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, jrinkel@...
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
>>>> > to check out
>>>> >
>>>> > www.lucytune.com
>>>> >
>>>> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>>>>
>>>> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
>>>> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
>>>> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>>>>
>>>> -Carl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Charles Lucy
>>>> lucy@...
>>>>
>>>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>>>
>>>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>>>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>>>
>>>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>>>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Charles Lucy
> lucy@...
>
> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>
> for information on LucyTuning go to:
> http://www.lucytune.com
>
> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>

Charles,

The piano accompaniment must be screwing with the measurements. It is
impossible for the violin solo to agree with 12-edo and still soundHüzzam.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Oct 7, 2009, at 1:03 AM, Charles Lucy wrote:

>
>
> D4 and below, Melodyne tells me that everything is 12edo within ten
> cents, and mostly within 5.
>
> Above D4 it is all over the place.
> It'll take me a while to get the other values from the flv, but when
> I get them I'll let you know (if anyone is interested;-)
>
>
> On 6 Oct 2009, at 22:23, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear Aaron,
>>
>> Melodic step-sizes in a maqam scale are, most of the time, not
>> abiding MOS. There may be three or more different step sizes.
>> Consider this Hüzzam:
>>
>> Ed 120 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 120 C 294 D# 84 Ed
>>
>> See, there are 6 different step sizes, with Ed at 56/45.
>>
>> Replacing 15:14 between Ed-F and Bd-C with 16:15 will ruin the rast-
>> segah relationship. Maybe the ear is inclining towards 56/45
>> instead of 5/4? But I fear that is too low. The proper perde segah
>> should be at 96/77:
>>
>> Ed 116 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 116 C 294 D# 88 Ed
>>
>> That's an even better Hüzzam, again with 6 different step sizes,
>> none of which is a multiple of another.
>>
>> While there are fourth and fifth relationships between given tones,
>> this scale is not constructed via a chain of fifths.
>>
>> Now I wonder, why 96/77 instead of 5/4 (if we are to think in terms
>> of JI)? Or, why the beating of the major third?
>>
>> Aaron, this is not restricted to my taste, it is a phenomenon of
>> Maqam music according to my observations. It may not be a
>> scientific one, for I have not tested the rast-segah relatinship in
>> a laboratory condition with test subjects and equipment, but it is
>> rather obvious to one who listens to, say, "Ey gul-i bag eda" by
>> Dede Efendi in Hüzzam:
>>
>> http://www.vbox7.com/play:feba93b8?r=google
>>
>> Can you also observe the low perde segah?
>>
>> Oz.
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>> On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:31 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Oz,
>>>
>>> My ad-hoc theory is that you are probably noticing the subtle
>>> effects of having all the melodic step sizes be similar, and/or
>>> multiples of each other, due to the chain-of-fifths? Or, you
>>> prefer to notice a slight beating in the third.
>>>
>>> I'm really curious how scientifically you have tested your
>>> perception of this....do you have a 100% success rate? Perhaps you
>>> can set up a kind of blind listening test?
>>>
>>> All best,
>>> Aaron.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Aaron, thank you for sharing your thoughts. But why does the ear
>>> of a maqam musician incline toward 8192/6561 instead of 5/4? I
>>> have many times tried to accompany an actual performance with
>>> either 53-tET and 41-tET, and observed the latter to agree with
>>> practice more.
>>>
>>> Oz.
>>>
>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>
>>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Aaron,
>>>>
>>>> I also suspect PI has little to do with the actual phenomenon of
>>>> why a 381-384 cent major third sounds just as sweet as a 386 cent
>>>> major third. Note, that Rauf Yekta pointed out the rast-segah
>>>> interval to be 384 cents, not 386 cents, claiming that the ear is
>>>> sensitive to the minute difference of 2 cents.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a schismatic (Pythagorean) diminished 4th, so that makes
>>>> sense.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't know why, but I also experience 5/4 as an inappropriate
>>>> segah. It's just too high. There must be some logical psycho-
>>>> acoustical reason behind it. Through trial and error, I located
>>>> the desired interval to be somewhere about 382 cents.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My thoughts? You are a very sensitive musician with keen hearing,
>>>> brought up in a cultural/musical tradition you understand well,
>>>> and your instincts favor a Pythagorean diminshed 4th, rather than
>>>> a 5/4!
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that this is also is variable in certain lab conditions
>>>> like tempo, etc. IOW, there might be 'lab' conditions possible
>>>> where you'd also confuse the two 3rds.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Aaron.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cordially,
>>>> Oz.
>>>>
>>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey, what was the $50 challenge? I forget....
>>>>>
>>>>> I do think that so-called LucyTuning© sounds good for certain
>>>>> things, BTW. But I have to agree that _why_ it sounds good has
>>>>> pretty much nothing to do with PI. In other words, people don't
>>>>> start floating out of their seats, arms outstretched in mystical
>>>>> oneness with creation, surrounded by incandescent blue orbs of
>>>>> cosmic energy, when the major third is 2^(1/PI), as opposed to
>>>>> say 28 steps of 88-equal.....in 99.99% of cases, i.e. most music
>>>>> that doesn't have sustained chords 5 minutes long where you
>>>>> could measure things with an oscilloscope and software, *as it
>>>>> happens*, I highly doubt anyone could tell the difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> AKJ
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Charles Lucy
>>>>> <lucy@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> it is convenient that it works in a meantone pattern. That makes
>>>>> it easy to notate, conceptualise the harmony, and to use for
>>>>> educated musicians.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the snake oil (marketing?):
>>>>>
>>>>> Snake oil seems to refer to an ancient Chinese remedy; after
>>>>> all the Chinese do represent the largest market for just about
>>>>> everything nowadays;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Numerology?
>>>>>
>>>>> Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous
>>>>> challenge which you reneged on a couple of years ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have fun with it!
>>>>>
>>>>> C.L.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2 Oct 2009, at 03:16, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jrinkel@... wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
>>>>>> > to check out
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > www.lucytune.com
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
>>>>>> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
>>>>>> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Carl
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Charles Lucy
>>>>> lucy@...
>>>>>
>>>>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>>>>
>>>>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>>>>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>>>>
>>>>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>>>>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> Charles Lucy
> lucy@...
>
> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>
> for information on LucyTuning go to:
> http://www.lucytune.com
>
> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>
>

from Ozan~
Melodic step-sizes in a maqam scale are, most of the time, not abiding
MOS. There may be three or more different step sizes. Consider this
H�zzam:

Ed 120 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 120 C 294 D# 84 Ed

See, there are 6 different step sizes, with Ed at 56/45.

MOS would never be part of the question of any 5-limit and above tuning array. It acts more as an archtypal pattern for constant structures which is really where the interesting scale building is done. I would imagine this would fit if we mapped out the whole system. Where ever an interval occurs it would be subtended by the same number of steps. Regardless scales with unequal steps sizes contain more possible variation within less tones. Cultures that do not have the luxury of as many tones as the west and elsewhere often make up for it in such ways.
--

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> from Ozan~
> Melodic step-sizes in a maqam scale are, most of the time, not abiding
> MOS. There may be three or more different step sizes. Consider this
> Hüzzam:
>
> Ed 120 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 120 C 294 D# 84 Ed
>
> See, there are 6 different step sizes, with Ed at 56/45.
>
> MOS would never be part of the question of any 5-limit and above tuning
> array. It acts more as an archtypal pattern for constant structures
> which is really where the interesting scale building is done. I would
> imagine this would fit if we mapped out the whole system. Where ever an
> interval occurs it would be subtended by the same number of steps.
> Regardless scales with unequal steps sizes contain more possible
> variation within less tones. Cultures that do not have the luxury of as
> many tones as the west and elsewhere often make up for it in such ways.

Does this mean that a constant structure could actually be quite asymmetrical as far as exact frequencies of intervals, as long as the constancy is in the scalar structure?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cameron" <misterbobro@...> wrote:

> Does this mean that a constant structure could actually be quite >asymmetrical as far as exact frequencies of intervals, as long as the >constancy is in the scalar structure?
>

Quoted at Tonalsoft:

Erv Wilson, via Kriag Grady, Yahoo Tuning List message 5244]
A tuning system where each interval occurs always subtended by the same number of steps. (THAT IS ALL, NO OTHER RESTRICTIONS)

So I see the answer to my question is "yes".

Yes of course. All the violin seems to be above D4, and I have yet to
go through each of the notes and find the pitches that are being played.
Please be patient. I have lotsa heavy legal stuff to sort out in the
next 24 hours or so.

On 7 Oct 2009, at 01:43, Ozan Yarman wrote:

>
> Charles,
>
> The piano accompaniment must be screwing with the measurements. It
> is impossible for the violin solo to agree with 12-edo and still
> sound Hüzzam.
>
> Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> On Oct 7, 2009, at 1:03 AM, Charles Lucy wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> D4 and below, Melodyne tells me that everything is 12edo within ten
>> cents, and mostly within 5.
>>
>> Above D4 it is all over the place.
>> It'll take me a while to get the other values from the flv, but
>> when I get them I'll let you know (if anyone is interested;-)
>>
>>
>> On 6 Oct 2009, at 22:23, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Dear Aaron,
>>>
>>> Melodic step-sizes in a maqam scale are, most of the time, not
>>> abiding MOS. There may be three or more different step sizes.
>>> Consider this Hüzzam:
>>>
>>> Ed 120 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 120 C 294 D# 84 Ed
>>>
>>> See, there are 6 different step sizes, with Ed at 56/45.
>>>
>>> Replacing 15:14 between Ed-F and Bd-C with 16:15 will ruin the
>>> rast-segah relationship. Maybe the ear is inclining towards 56/45
>>> instead of 5/4? But I fear that is too low. The proper perde segah
>>> should be at 96/77:
>>>
>>> Ed 116 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 116 C 294 D# 88 Ed
>>>
>>> That's an even better Hüzzam, again with 6 different step sizes,
>>> none of which is a multiple of another.
>>>
>>> While there are fourth and fifth relationships between given
>>> tones, this scale is not constructed via a chain of fifths.
>>>
>>> Now I wonder, why 96/77 instead of 5/4 (if we are to think in
>>> terms of JI)? Or, why the beating of the major third?
>>>
>>> Aaron, this is not restricted to my taste, it is a phenomenon of
>>> Maqam music according to my observations. It may not be a
>>> scientific one, for I have not tested the rast-segah relatinship
>>> in a laboratory condition with test subjects and equipment, but it
>>> is rather obvious to one who listens to, say, "Ey gul-i bag eda"
>>> by Dede Efendi in Hüzzam:
>>>
>>> http://www.vbox7.com/play:feba93b8?r=google
>>>
>>> Can you also observe the low perde segah?
>>>
>>> Oz.
>>>
>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>
>>> On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:31 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oz,
>>>>
>>>> My ad-hoc theory is that you are probably noticing the subtle
>>>> effects of having all the melodic step sizes be similar, and/or
>>>> multiples of each other, due to the chain-of-fifths? Or, you>>>> prefer to notice a slight beating in the third.
>>>>
>>>> I'm really curious how scientifically you have tested your
>>>> perception of this....do you have a 100% success rate? Perhaps
>>>> you can set up a kind of blind listening test?
>>>>
>>>> All best,
>>>> Aaron.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Aaron, thank you for sharing your thoughts. But why does the ear
>>>> of a maqam musician incline toward 8192/6561 instead of 5/4? I
>>>> have many times tried to accompany an actual performance with
>>>> either 53-tET and 41-tET, and observed the latter to agree with
>>>> practice more.
>>>>
>>>> Oz.
>>>>
>>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Aaron,
>>>>>
>>>>> I also suspect PI has little to do with the actual phenomenon of>>>>> why a 381-384 cent major third sounds just as sweet as a 386
>>>>> cent major third. Note, that Rauf Yekta pointed out the rast-
>>>>> segah interval to be 384 cents, not 386 cents, claiming that the
>>>>> ear is sensitive to the minute difference of 2 cents.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a schismatic (Pythagorean) diminished 4th, so that makes
>>>>> sense.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know why, but I also experience 5/4 as an inappropriate
>>>>> segah. It's just too high. There must be some logical psycho-
>>>>> acoustical reason behind it. Through trial and error, I located >>>>> the desired interval to be somewhere about 382 cents.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My thoughts? You are a very sensitive musician with keen
>>>>> hearing, brought up in a cultural/musical tradition you
>>>>> understand well, and your instincts favor a Pythagorean
>>>>> diminshed 4th, rather than a 5/4!
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect that this is also is variable in certain lab
>>>>> conditions like tempo, etc. IOW, there might be 'lab' conditions
>>>>> possible where you'd also confuse the two 3rds.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Aaron.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>> Oz.
>>>>>
>>>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey, what was the $50 challenge? I forget....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do think that so-called LucyTuning© sounds good for certain
>>>>>> things, BTW. But I have to agree that _why_ it sounds good has
>>>>>> pretty much nothing to do with PI. In other words, people don't
>>>>>> start floating out of their seats, arms outstretched in
>>>>>> mystical oneness with creation, surrounded by incandescent blue
>>>>>> orbs of cosmic energy, when the major third is 2^(1/PI), as
>>>>>> opposed to say 28 steps of 88-equal.....in 99.99% of cases,
>>>>>> i.e. most music that doesn't have sustained chords 5 minutes
>>>>>> long where you could measure things with an oscilloscope and
>>>>>> software, *as it happens*, I highly doubt anyone could tell the
>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AKJ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Charles Lucy
>>>>>> <lucy@...> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it is convenient that it works in a meantone pattern. That
>>>>>> makes it easy to notate, conceptualise the harmony, and to use
>>>>>> for educated musicians.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the snake oil (marketing?):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Snake oil seems to refer to an ancient Chinese remedy; after
>>>>>> all the Chinese do represent the largest market for just about
>>>>>> everything nowadays;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Numerology?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous
>>>>>> challenge which you reneged on a couple of years ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have fun with it!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C.L.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2 Oct 2009, at 03:16, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jrinkel@... wrote:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
>>>>>>> > to check out
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > www.lucytune.com
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
>>>>>>> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
>>>>>>> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Carl
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Lucy
>>>>>> lucy@...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>>>>>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>>>>>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>>>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>>>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Charles Lucy
>> lucy@lucytune.com
>>
>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>
>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>
>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Charles Lucy
lucy@...

- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -

for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com

For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

OK Chris send me details, although I am really busy today, so if you
can wait until the weekend for any results, I would be pleased to see
what I can find.

On 7 Oct 2009, at 01:22, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

> I'm interested,
>
> And Charles, could I talk you into putting a Lassus or Palestrina
> piece in Melodyne DNA - to see if in practice the 4ths are pure or
> "dissonant"?
>
> If you need a snippet of each composer I can provide it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com>
> wrote:
>
> D4 and below, Melodyne tells me that everything is 12edo within ten
> cents, and mostly within 5.
>
>
> Above D4 it is all over the place.
> It'll take me a while to get the other values from the flv, but when
> I get them I'll let you know (if anyone is interested;-)
>
>
> On 6 Oct 2009, at 22:23, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear Aaron,
>>
>> Melodic step-sizes in a maqam scale are, most of the time, not
>> abiding MOS. There may be three or more different step sizes.
>> Consider this Hüzzam:
>>
>> Ed 120 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 120 C 294 D# 84 Ed
>>
>> See, there are 6 different step sizes, with Ed at 56/45.
>>
>> Replacing 15:14 between Ed-F and Bd-C with 16:15 will ruin the rast-
>> segah relationship. Maybe the ear is inclining towards 56/45
>> instead of 5/4? But I fear that is too low. The proper perde segah
>> should be at 96/77:
>>
>> Ed 116 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 116 C 294 D# 88 Ed
>>
>> That's an even better Hüzzam, again with 6 different step sizes,
>> none of which is a multiple of another.
>>
>> While there are fourth and fifth relationships between given tones,
>> this scale is not constructed via a chain of fifths.
>>
>> Now I wonder, why 96/77 instead of 5/4 (if we are to think in terms
>> of JI)? Or, why the beating of the major third?
>>
>> Aaron, this is not restricted to my taste, it is a phenomenon of
>> Maqam music according to my observations. It may not be a
>> scientific one, for I have not tested the rast-segah relatinship in
>> a laboratory condition with test subjects and equipment, but it is
>> rather obvious to one who listens to, say, "Ey gul-i bag eda" by
>> Dede Efendi in Hüzzam:
>>
>> http://www.vbox7.com/play:feba93b8?r=google
>>
>> Can you also observe the low perde segah?
>>
>> Oz.
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>> On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:31 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Oz,
>>>
>>> My ad-hoc theory is that you are probably noticing the subtle >>> effects of having all the melodic step sizes be similar, and/or
>>> multiples of each other, due to the chain-of-fifths? Or, you
>>> prefer to notice a slight beating in the third.
>>>
>>> I'm really curious how scientifically you have tested your
>>> perception of this....do you have a 100% success rate? Perhaps you
>>> can set up a kind of blind listening test?
>>>
>>> All best,
>>> Aaron.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Aaron, thank you for sharing your thoughts. But why does the ear
>>> of a maqam musician incline toward 8192/6561 instead of 5/4? I
>>> have many times tried to accompany an actual performance with
>>> either 53-tET and 41-tET, and observed the latter to agree with
>>> practice more.
>>>
>>> Oz.
>>>
>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>
>>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Aaron,
>>>>
>>>> I also suspect PI has little to do with the actual phenomenon of
>>>> why a 381-384 cent major third sounds just as sweet as a 386 cent
>>>> major third. Note, that Rauf Yekta pointed out the rast-segah
>>>> interval to be 384 cents, not 386 cents, claiming that the ear is
>>>> sensitive to the minute difference of 2 cents.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a schismatic (Pythagorean) diminished 4th, so that makes
>>>> sense.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't know why, but I also experience 5/4 as an inappropriate
>>>> segah. It's just too high. There must be some logical psycho-
>>>> acoustical reason behind it. Through trial and error, I located
>>>> the desired interval to be somewhere about 382 cents.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My thoughts? You are a very sensitive musician with keen hearing,
>>>> brought up in a cultural/musical tradition you understand well,
>>>> and your instincts favor a Pythagorean diminshed 4th, rather than
>>>> a 5/4!
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that this is also is variable in certain lab conditions
>>>> like tempo, etc. IOW, there might be 'lab' conditions possible
>>>> where you'd also confuse the two 3rds.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Aaron.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cordially,
>>>> Oz.
>>>>
>>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey, what was the $50 challenge? I forget....
>>>>>
>>>>> I do think that so-called LucyTuning© sounds good for certain
>>>>> things, BTW. But I have to agree that _why_ it sounds good has
>>>>> pretty much nothing to do with PI. In other words, people don't
>>>>> start floating out of their seats, arms outstretched in mystical
>>>>> oneness with creation, surrounded by incandescent blue orbs of
>>>>> cosmic energy, when the major third is 2^(1/PI), as opposed to
>>>>> say 28 steps of 88-equal.....in 99.99% of cases, i.e. most music
>>>>> that doesn't have sustained chords 5 minutes long where you
>>>>> could measure things with an oscilloscope and software, *as it
>>>>> happens*, I highly doubt anyone could tell the difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> AKJ
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Charles Lucy >>>>> <lucy@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> it is convenient that it works in a meantone pattern. That makes
>>>>> it easy to notate, conceptualise the harmony, and to use for
>>>>> educated musicians.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the snake oil (marketing?):
>>>>>
>>>>> Snake oil seems to refer to an ancient Chinese remedy; after
>>>>> all the Chinese do represent the largest market for just about
>>>>> everything nowadays;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Numerology?
>>>>>
>>>>> Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous
>>>>> challenge which you reneged on a couple of years ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have fun with it!
>>>>>
>>>>> C.L.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2 Oct 2009, at 03:16, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jrinkel@... wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
>>>>>> > to check out
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > www.lucytune.com
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
>>>>>> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
>>>>>> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Carl
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Charles Lucy
>>>>> lucy@...
>>>>>
>>>>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>>>>
>>>>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>>>>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>>>>
>>>>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>>>>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> Charles Lucy
> lucy@lucytune.com
>
> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>
> for information on LucyTuning go to:
> http://www.lucytune.com
>
> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>
>

Charles Lucy
lucy@lucytune.com

- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -

for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com

For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Ok. will wait your analysis.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Oct 7, 2009, at 8:24 AM, Charles Lucy wrote:

>
>
> Yes of course. All the violin seems to be above D4, and I have yet
> to go through each of the notes and find the pitches that are being
> played.
> Please be patient. I have lotsa heavy legal stuff to sort out in the
> next 24 hours or so.
>
> On 7 Oct 2009, at 01:43, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>
>>
>> Charles,
>>
>> The piano accompaniment must be screwing with the measurements. It>> is impossible for the violin solo to agree with 12-edo and still
>> sound Hüzzam.
>>
>> Oz.
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>> On Oct 7, 2009, at 1:03 AM, Charles Lucy wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> D4 and below, Melodyne tells me that everything is 12edo within
>>> ten cents, and mostly within 5.
>>>
>>> Above D4 it is all over the place.
>>> It'll take me a while to get the other values from the flv, but
>>> when I get them I'll let you know (if anyone is interested;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6 Oct 2009, at 22:23, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Aaron,
>>>>
>>>> Melodic step-sizes in a maqam scale are, most of the time, not
>>>> abiding MOS. There may be three or more different step sizes.
>>>> Consider this Hüzzam:
>>>>
>>>> Ed 120 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 120 C 294 D# 84 Ed
>>>>
>>>> See, there are 6 different step sizes, with Ed at 56/45.
>>>>
>>>> Replacing 15:14 between Ed-F and Bd-C with 16:15 will ruin the
>>>> rast-segah relationship. Maybe the ear is inclining towards 56/45
>>>> instead of 5/4? But I fear that is too low. The proper perde
>>>> segah should be at 96/77:
>>>>
>>>> Ed 116 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 116 C 294 D# 88 Ed
>>>>
>>>> That's an even better Hüzzam, again with 6 different step sizes,
>>>> none of which is a multiple of another.
>>>>
>>>> While there are fourth and fifth relationships between given
>>>> tones, this scale is not constructed via a chain of fifths.
>>>>
>>>> Now I wonder, why 96/77 instead of 5/4 (if we are to think in
>>>> terms of JI)? Or, why the beating of the major third?
>>>>
>>>> Aaron, this is not restricted to my taste, it is a phenomenon of
>>>> Maqam music according to my observations. It may not be a
>>>> scientific one, for I have not tested the rast-segah relatinship
>>>> in a laboratory condition with test subjects and equipment, but
>>>> it is rather obvious to one who listens to, say, "Ey gul-i bag
>>>> eda" by Dede Efendi in Hüzzam:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.vbox7.com/play:feba93b8?r=google
>>>>
>>>> Can you also observe the low perde segah?
>>>>
>>>> Oz.
>>>>
>>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:31 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oz,
>>>>>
>>>>> My ad-hoc theory is that you are probably noticing the subtle
>>>>> effects of having all the melodic step sizes be similar, and/or
>>>>> multiples of each other, due to the chain-of-fifths? Or, you
>>>>> prefer to notice a slight beating in the third.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm really curious how scientifically you have tested your
>>>>> perception of this....do you have a 100% success rate? Perhaps
>>>>> you can set up a kind of blind listening test?
>>>>>
>>>>> All best,
>>>>> Aaron.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Aaron, thank you for sharing your thoughts. But why does the ear
>>>>> of a maqam musician incline toward 8192/6561 instead of 5/4? I
>>>>> have many times tried to accompany an actual performance with
>>>>> either 53-tET and 41-tET, and observed the latter to agree with
>>>>> practice more.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oz.
>>>>>
>>>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aaron,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also suspect PI has little to do with the actual phenomenon
>>>>>> of why a 381-384 cent major third sounds just as sweet as a 386
>>>>>> cent major third. Note, that Rauf Yekta pointed out the rast-
>>>>>> segah interval to be 384 cents, not 386 cents, claiming that
>>>>>> the ear is sensitive to the minute difference of 2 cents.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's a schismatic (Pythagorean) diminished 4th, so that makes
>>>>>> sense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know why, but I also experience 5/4 as an inappropriate
>>>>>> segah. It's just too high. There must be some logical psycho-
>>>>>> acoustical reason behind it. Through trial and error, I located
>>>>>> the desired interval to be somewhere about 382 cents.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My thoughts? You are a very sensitive musician with keen
>>>>>> hearing, brought up in a cultural/musical tradition you
>>>>>> understand well, and your instincts favor a Pythagorean
>>>>>> diminshed 4th, rather than a 5/4!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect that this is also is variable in certain lab
>>>>>> conditions like tempo, etc. IOW, there might be 'lab'
>>>>>> conditions possible where you'd also confuse the two 3rds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Aaron.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>> Oz.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>>>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey, what was the $50 challenge? I forget....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do think that so-called LucyTuning© sounds good for certain
>>>>>>> things, BTW. But I have to agree that _why_ it sounds good has >>>>>>> pretty much nothing to do with PI. In other words, people
>>>>>>> don't start floating out of their seats, arms outstretched in
>>>>>>> mystical oneness with creation, surrounded by incandescent
>>>>>>> blue orbs of cosmic energy, when the major third is 2^(1/PI),
>>>>>>> as opposed to say 28 steps of 88-equal.....in 99.99% of cases,
>>>>>>> i.e. most music that doesn't have sustained chords 5 minutes
>>>>>>> long where you could measure things with an oscilloscope and
>>>>>>> software, *as it happens*, I highly doubt anyone could tell
>>>>>>> the difference.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AKJ
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Charles Lucy
>>>>>>> <lucy@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it is convenient that it works in a meantone pattern. That
>>>>>>> makes it easy to notate, conceptualise the harmony, and to use
>>>>>>> for educated musicians.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for the snake oil (marketing?):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Snake oil seems to refer to an ancient Chinese remedy; after
>>>>>>> all the Chinese do represent the largest market for just about
>>>>>>> everything nowadays;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Numerology?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous
>>>>>>> challenge which you reneged on a couple of years ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have fun with it!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> C.L.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2 Oct 2009, at 03:16, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jrinkel@... wrote:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
>>>>>>>> > to check out
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > www.lucytune.com
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
>>>>>>>> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
>>>>>>>> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Carl
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charles Lucy
>>>>>>> lucy@...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>>>>>>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>>>>>>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>>>>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>>>>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>>>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>>>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Charles Lucy
>>> lucy@...
>>>
>>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>>
>>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>>
>>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> Charles Lucy
> lucy@...
>
> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>
> for information on LucyTuning go to:
> http://www.lucytune.com
>
> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thank you so much Charles,

I'll be sending you some information later this week and you can get to it
when you have time.

Thanks!!

chris

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:

>
>
> OK Chris send me details, although I am really busy today, so if you can
> wait until the weekend for any results, I would be pleased to see what I can
> find.
>
>
> On 7 Oct 2009, at 01:22, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
>
> I'm interested,
>
> And Charles, could I talk you into putting a Lassus or Palestrina piece in
> Melodyne DNA - to see if in practice the 4ths are pure or "dissonant"?
>
> If you need a snippet of each composer I can provide it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> D4 and below, Melodyne tells me that everything is 12edo within ten cents,
>> and mostly within 5.
>>
>> Above D4 it is all over the place.
>> It'll take me a while to get the other values from the flv, but when I get
>> them I'll let you know (if anyone is interested;-)
>>
>>
>> On 6 Oct 2009, at 22:23, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>>
>>
>> Dear Aaron,
>>
>> Melodic step-sizes in a maqam scale are, most of the time, not abiding
>> MOS. There may be three or more different step sizes. Consider this Hüzzam:
>>
>> Ed 120 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 120 C 294 D# 84 Ed
>>
>> See, there are 6 different step sizes, with Ed at 56/45.
>>
>> Replacing 15:14 between Ed-F and Bd-C with 16:15 will ruin the rast-segah
>> relationship. Maybe the ear is inclining towards 56/45 instead of 5/4? But I
>> fear that is too low. The proper perde segah should be at 96/77:
>>
>> Ed 116 F 204 G 150 Ab 228 Bd 116 C 294 D# 88 Ed
>>
>> That's an even better Hüzzam, again with 6 different step sizes, none of
>> which is a multiple of another.
>>
>> While there are fourth and fifth relationships between given tones, this
>> scale is not constructed via a chain of fifths.
>>
>> Now I wonder, why 96/77 instead of 5/4 (if we are to think in terms of
>> JI)? Or, why the beating of the major third?
>>
>> Aaron, this is not restricted to my taste, it is a phenomenon of Maqam
>> music according to my observations. It may not be a scientific one, for I
>> have not tested the rast-segah relatinship in a laboratory condition with
>> test subjects and equipment, but it is rather obvious to one who listens to,
>> say, "Ey gul-i bag eda" by Dede Efendi in Hüzzam:
>>
>> http://www.vbox7.com/play:feba93b8?r=google
>>
>> Can you also observe the low perde segah?
>>
>> Oz.
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>> On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:31 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Oz,
>>
>> My ad-hoc theory is that you are probably noticing the subtle effects of
>> having all the melodic step sizes be similar, and/or multiples of each
>> other, due to the chain-of-fifths? Or, you prefer to notice a slight beating
>> in the third.
>>
>> I'm really curious how scientifically you have tested your perception of
>> this....do you have a 100% success rate? Perhaps you can set up a kind of
>> blind listening test?
>>
>> All best,
>> Aaron.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Aaron, thank you for sharing your thoughts. But why does the ear of a
>>> maqam musician incline toward 8192/6561 instead of 5/4? I have many times
>>> tried to accompany an actual performance with either 53-tET and 41-tET, and
>>> observed the latter to agree with practice more.
>>>
>>> Oz.
>>>
>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>
>>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Aaron,
>>>>
>>>> I also suspect PI has little to do with the actual phenomenon of why a
>>>> 381-384 cent major third sounds just as sweet as a 386 cent major third.
>>>> Note, that Rauf Yekta pointed out the rast-segah interval to be 384 cents,
>>>> not 386 cents, claiming that the ear is sensitive to the minute difference
>>>> of 2 cents.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That's a schismatic (Pythagorean) diminished 4th, so that makes sense.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I don't know why, but I also experience 5/4 as an inappropriate segah.
>>>> It's just too high. There must be some logical psycho-acoustical reason
>>>> behind it. Through trial and error, I located the desired interval to be
>>>> somewhere about 382 cents.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My thoughts? You are a very sensitive musician with keen hearing, brought
>>> up in a cultural/musical tradition you understand well, and your instincts
>>> favor a Pythagorean diminshed 4th, rather than a 5/4!
>>>
>>> I suspect that this is also is variable in certain lab conditions like
>>> tempo, etc. IOW, there might be 'lab' conditions possible where you'd also
>>> confuse the two 3rds.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Aaron.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Cordially,
>>>> Oz.
>>>>
>>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Aaron Johnson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hey, what was the $50 challenge? I forget....
>>>>
>>>> I do think that so-called LucyTuning© sounds good for certain things,
>>>> BTW. But I have to agree that _why_ it sounds good has pretty much nothing
>>>> to do with PI. In other words, people don't start floating out of their
>>>> seats, arms outstretched in mystical oneness with creation, surrounded by
>>>> incandescent blue orbs of cosmic energy, when the major third is 2^(1/PI),
>>>> as opposed to say 28 steps of 88-equal.....in 99.99% of cases, i.e. most
>>>> music that doesn't have sustained chords 5 minutes long where you could
>>>> measure things with an oscilloscope and software, *as it happens*, I highly
>>>> doubt anyone could tell the difference.
>>>>
>>>> AKJ
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Charles Lucy <lucy@...>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> it is convenient that it works in a meantone pattern. That makes it
>>>>> easy to notate, conceptualise the harmony, and to use for educated
>>>>> musicians.
>>>>> As for the snake oil (marketing?):
>>>>>
>>>>> Snake oil seems to refer to an ancient Chinese remedy; after all the
>>>>> Chinese do represent the largest market for just about everything
>>>>> nowadays;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Numerology?
>>>>>
>>>>> Can we count on Carl to be able to explain what that is?
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW Carl I'm still waiting for my $50 payout from a previous challenge
>>>>> which you reneged on a couple of years ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have fun with it!
>>>>>
>>>>> C.L.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2 Oct 2009, at 03:16, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, jrinkel@...
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In addition to the many suggestions so far, you may want
>>>>> > to check out
>>>>> >
>>>>> > www.lucytune.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> > It talks about a microtonal scale based on the value of pi.
>>>>>
>>>>> The uninitiated should be aware that lucytuning is simply
>>>>> meantone (in the neighborhood of 1/3-comma meantone), mixed
>>>>> with liberal quantities of numerology and snake oil.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Carl
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Charles Lucy
>>>>> lucy@...
>>>>>
>>>>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>>>>
>>>>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>>>>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>>>>
>>>>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>>>>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>> http://www.untwelve.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Charles Lucy
>> lucy@...
>>
>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>
>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>
>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Charles Lucy
> lucy@...
>
> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>
> for information on LucyTuning go to:
> http://www.lucytune.com
>
> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>

yes cameron. that is a constant structure and the higher the limit usually the more variation.
i think the third in question might be close to a meta meantone thind/proportional beating too. but can't check till after shadow play.
--

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again