Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Prelude in 18ET

Sebastian Bach, eat your heart out...

Aaron Andrew, this is superb! I like it very much. Please tell us, I
pray, the process behind the marvelous creation. Did you use Megastaff
or Scordatura?

I hear frequent modulations by 67 cents, which is a delicious
semitonal interval best approximated by 25/24 for strict 5-limit
harmony. This renders your counterpuntal piece a Renaissance-Baroque
flavour. Yet, with the presence of equal wholetones, the essence is
augmented to encompass the Classical era too.

Without a doubt, a fine addition to the microtonal arsenal, a true gem.

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Sep 19, 2009, at 9:47 PM, Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:

> At long last, an attempt at 18ET counterpoint:
> <http://www.h-pi.com/mp3/18ETPrelude.mp3>
>
> Cause for celebration: I've now written at least one piece in every
> ET between 7 and 19.
> More here:
> <http://www.h-pi.com/musicFiles.html>
>
> Cheers!
> AAH
> =====
> Aaron Hunt
> H-Pi Instruments
>
> Please note that I choose not to be involved in discussions of things
> H-Pi related outside of the H-Pi forums,
> </tuning/topicId_unknown.html#74905>
> and I cordially invite everyone who is interested to please join and
> participate.
> Forum: <http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/>
> Blog: <http://www.h-pi.com/wordpress/>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
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>
>
>

🔗Aaron Johnson <aaron@...>

A superb transmutation of JS Bach's spirit to the gnarly regions of
xentonality! Bravo!

How about writing a collection called "the multi-tempered klavier?"

AKJ

On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aaronhunt@...>wrote:

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

🔗hpiinstruments <aaronhunt@...>

Thanks, Oz!

My M.O. for all these pieces is to first just sit at
a keyboard synth + TBX1 and play around in the
tuning, with pencil and staff paper at hand. In
the course of stumbling about, I analyze all the
intervals in the tuning, and take note of basic
things such as circle of fifths progressions and
tritone resolutions, working out some possibilities
as I play around.

I write down the notes I play, not the pitches that
sound. This is the easiest way for these keyboard
pieces (as opposed to writing for Tonal Plexus,
where I use the MegaStaff notation). I label the
intervals that sound, and make a catalog of all
the intervals, Nm2, W5, etc. (my system names)

Once my ears are accustomed to the sound of
the tuning and I have some of those basic things
written down, I start going for some material and
get a few ideas on paper I feel are worthwhile.

After I have a few ideas there on paper, I move to
the computer and start a piece proper using notation
software + Scordatura (previously I had used TBX1
there too, but it's easier to use Scordatura). Once
I'm at the computer, I'm just using the mouse like
a pencil to enter notes, and I write pretty freely,
just following my ear.

This piece in particular is not very unified in terms
of material or form. One listener so far described
the sound as "drunken", which is funny and says
something about the uncertain character of this
tuning when used for tonal counterpoint. There are
intrinsic reasons why the tuning sounds this way,
the details of which could easily fill a book.

18ET has great potential for whole tone based music
because it allows interesting modulation between 3
whole tone scales, and I also came up with some
material along those lines, but that doesn't fit
stylistically with what I want to do for the Equal
Tempered Keyboard project, so I left it for later.

Cheers,
AAH
=====

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Sebastian Bach, eat your heart out...
>
> Aaron Andrew, this is superb! I like it very much. Please tell us, I
> pray, the process behind the marvelous creation. Did you use Megastaff
> or Scordatura?
>
> I hear frequent modulations by 67 cents, which is a delicious
> semitonal interval best approximated by 25/24 for strict 5-limit
> harmony. This renders your counterpuntal piece a Renaissance-Baroque
> flavour. Yet, with the presence of equal wholetones, the essence is
> augmented to encompass the Classical era too.
>
> Without a doubt, a fine addition to the microtonal arsenal, a true gem.
>
> Cordially,
> Oz.
>
> â© â© â©
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> On Sep 19, 2009, at 9:47 PM, Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
>
> > At long last, an attempt at 18ET counterpoint:
> > <http://www.h-pi.com/mp3/18ETPrelude.mp3>
> >
> > Cause for celebration: I've now written at least one piece in every
> > ET between 7 and 19.
> > More here:
> > <http://www.h-pi.com/musicFiles.html>
> >
> > Cheers!
> > AAH
> > =====
> > Aaron Hunt
> > H-Pi Instruments
> >
> > Please note that I choose not to be involved in discussions of things
> > H-Pi related outside of the H-Pi forums,
> > </tuning/topicId_unknown.html#74905>
> > and I cordially invite everyone who is interested to please join and
> > participate.
> > Forum: <http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/>
> > Blog: <http://www.h-pi.com/wordpress/>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> > of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> > tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> > tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> > tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> > tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> > tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> > tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

🔗hpiinstruments <aaronhunt@...>

Thanks, AKJ!

It is in fact part of a project called the "Equal Tempered
Keyboard" (ETK) as a play of course on WTC.

If I only had your amazing piano chops, I would record
myself playing these things instead of always offering
these terribly dry computer generated recordings.

BTW, I very much enjoyed your latest improvisations!
Keep it up.

Cheers,
AAH
=====

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Johnson <aaron@...> wrote:
>
> A superb transmutation of JS Bach's spirit to the gnarly regions of
> xentonality! Bravo!
>
> How about writing a collection called "the multi-tempered klavier?"
>
> AKJ
>
> On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aaronhunt@...>wrote:
>
> > At long last, an attempt at 18ET counterpoint:
> > <http://www.h-pi.com/mp3/18ETPrelude.mp3>
> >
> > Cause for celebration: I've now written at least one piece in every
> > ET between 7 and 19.
> > More here:
> > <http://www.h-pi.com/musicFiles.html>
> >
> > Cheers!
> > AAH
> > =====
> > Aaron Hunt
> > H-Pi Instruments
> >
> > Please note that I choose not to be involved in discussions of things
> > H-Pi related outside of the H-Pi forums,
> > </tuning/topicId_unknown.html#74905>
> > and I cordially invite everyone who is interested to please join and
> > participate.
> > Forum: <http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/>
> > Blog: <http://www.h-pi.com/wordpress/>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> > of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> > tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> > tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> > tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> > tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> > tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> > tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

🔗Chris <chrisvaisvil@...>

I disagree about the utility of the whole tone scale. I'll post some stuff later.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Forro <dan.for@tiscali.cz>

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 09:07:31
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [tuning] Prelude in 18ET

I'm afraid whole tone scale itself doesn't offer too much interesting
possibilities for composition, as everything sounds the same in it.
And it was used so much in the music of the past that it's almost
unusable if you want to write New music based only on it. There are
still some possibilities in chaining augmented chords to get
interesting 6, 9 and 12tone chords. This can be emphasized when we
will combine augmented chords from different microtonally shifted
whole tone scales (like in 18 ET).

Similar situation is with diminished seventh chord (and diminished
scale), which was refreshed by Bartok thanks to his chaining of
diminished seventh chords, and by Messiaen thanks to his polymodal
use of it.

Daniel Forro

On 20 Sep 2009, at 8:39 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

> The 3 whole tone scales sounds like it lead to interesting
> possibilities.
>

🔗hpiinstruments <aaronhunt@...>

Hi Daniel.

I agree that whole tone in 12ET gets boring very fast,
but my point was that 18ET breathes new life into
ideas based on whole tones. All of a sudden those boring
static sounds can become interesting again, because as Oz
pointed out, 18ET has the "delicious" third-tone interval,
and modulating around with those becomes exciting,
particularly because whole tones in 18 are exactly the same
as 12, so they set up an expectation for something static
and boring, and then - bam! that was different! Not sure
how far it could go, remaining affective, since I haven't
tried a piece proper... challenge to list members - maybe
Chris will oblige?

Since whole tone structures include incomplete dominant
seventh chords or more characteristically augmented
dominants, and by proxy French augmented sixths, I was
also saying it would be interesting if the substantial
material is based on whole tones, but by noting modulation
with third-tones I meant to say that things should not be
strictly limited to whole tones; that would be pointless.

Last note, 18ET also works great for standard blues. And
try playing James Brown's "I Feel Good" in 18; the neighbor
tones are killer!

I fiddled with this tuning for a long time before writing
anything, so I have sketch material for all kinds of stuff,
one of which is a blues in 5/8 I might turn into a piece at
some point.

Cheers,
AAH
=====

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> I'm afraid whole tone scale itself doesn't offer too much interesting
> possibilities for composition, as everything sounds the same in it.
> And it was used so much in the music of the past that it's almost
> unusable if you want to write New music based only on it. There are
> still some possibilities in chaining augmented chords to get
> interesting 6, 9 and 12tone chords. This can be emphasized when we
> will combine augmented chords from different microtonally shifted
> whole tone scales (like in 18 ET).
>
> Similar situation is with diminished seventh chord (and diminished
> scale), which was refreshed by Bartok thanks to his chaining of
> diminished seventh chords, and by Messiaen thanks to his polymodal
> use of it.
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
> On 20 Sep 2009, at 8:39 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
>
> > The 3 whole tone scales sounds like it lead to interesting
> > possibilities.
> >
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Sure I'll give it a shot - when you said that about 18ET a light went off in
my head :-)

think about this - if you think whole tone is boring what about pentatonic?
That's been around a lot longer. My philosophy is "everything is useful"

Here is a metalish rock tune done with a whole tone basis - but its not
pure.

http://www.traxinspace.com/song/41046

I gotta run errands - if you want a download instead of the (bad) on line
play give me a holler.

Chris

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 1:41 PM, hpiinstruments <aaronhunt@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Daniel.
>
> I agree that whole tone in 12ET gets boring very fast,
> but my point was that 18ET breathes new life into
> ideas based on whole tones. All of a sudden those boring
> static sounds can become interesting again, because as Oz
> pointed out, 18ET has the "delicious" third-tone interval,
> and modulating around with those becomes exciting,
> particularly because whole tones in 18 are exactly the same
> as 12, so they set up an expectation for something static
> and boring, and then - bam! that was different! Not sure
> how far it could go, remaining affective, since I haven't
> tried a piece proper... challenge to list members - maybe
> Chris will oblige?
>
> Since whole tone structures include incomplete dominant
> seventh chords or more characteristically augmented
> dominants, and by proxy French augmented sixths, I was
> also saying it would be interesting if the substantial
> material is based on whole tones, but by noting modulation
> with third-tones I meant to say that things should not be
> strictly limited to whole tones; that would be pointless.
>
> Last note, 18ET also works great for standard blues. And
> try playing James Brown's "I Feel Good" in 18; the neighbor
> tones are killer!
>
> I fiddled with this tuning for a long time before writing
> anything, so I have sketch material for all kinds of stuff,
> one of which is a blues in 5/8 I might turn into a piece at
> some point.
>
> Cheers,
> AAH
> =====
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Daniel Forro
> <dan.for@...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm afraid whole tone scale itself doesn't offer too much interesting
> > possibilities for composition, as everything sounds the same in it.
> > And it was used so much in the music of the past that it's almost
> > unusable if you want to write New music based only on it. There are
> > still some possibilities in chaining augmented chords to get
> > interesting 6, 9 and 12tone chords. This can be emphasized when we
> > will combine augmented chords from different microtonally shifted
> > whole tone scales (like in 18 ET).
> >
> > Similar situation is with diminished seventh chord (and diminished
> > scale), which was refreshed by Bartok thanks to his chaining of
> > diminished seventh chords, and by Messiaen thanks to his polymodal
> > use of it.
> >
> > Daniel Forro
> >
> >
> > On 20 Sep 2009, at 8:39 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
> >
> > > The 3 whole tone scales sounds like it lead to interesting
> > > possibilities.
> > >
> >
>
>
>

🔗Chris <chrisvaisvil@...>

Just wanted to I'm working on a new. WT with wT singing. Should be ready in a week. The old guitar piece admittly didn't go anywhere. The old piece was as much of a test for doing harmony on my then new 4 track recorder as anything else.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "hpiinstruments" <aaronhunt@h-pi.com>

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:41:02
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [tuning] Re: Prelude in 18ET

Hi Daniel.

Last note, 18ET also works great for standard blues. And
try playing James Brown's "I Feel Good" in 18; the neighbor
tones are killer!

I fiddled with this tuning for a long time before writing
anything, so I have sketch material for all kinds of stuff,
one of which is a blues in 5/8 I might turn into a piece at
some point.

Cheers,
AAH
=====

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

Hi, Aaron,

you are right that this approach can bring interesting results, especially when somebody with your compositional skill will work on it. I admire your polyphonic works, you are able to work with additional notes in octave in various ET in quite natural way and make something new from it based on something old. Which is always good way - not pure experiment, not pure eclecticism, but well balanced. Compliments! Keep your way, I'm looking forward to whole tone piece. I'm sure you will find an interesting solution of this compositional challenge. 18 ET offers interesting relations, besides 6+6+6 it can be divided into 9+9, 3+4+5+6, 5+6+7... I can imagine also creating some subsets with distinguished different intervals, and use modes of it or modulations, or selecting size of the scale different from octave periodicity...

Daniel Forro

On 22 Sep 2009, at 2:41 AM, hpiinstruments wrote:

>
> Hi Daniel.
>
> I agree that whole tone in 12ET gets boring very fast,
> but my point was that 18ET breathes new life into
> ideas based on whole tones. All of a sudden those boring
> static sounds can become interesting again, because as Oz
> pointed out, 18ET has the "delicious" third-tone interval,
> and modulating around with those becomes exciting,
> particularly because whole tones in 18 are exactly the same
> as 12, so they set up an expectation for something static
> and boring, and then - bam! that was different! Not sure
> how far it could go, remaining affective, since I haven't
> tried a piece proper... challenge to list members - maybe
> Chris will oblige?
>
> Since whole tone structures include incomplete dominant
> seventh chords or more characteristically augmented
> dominants, and by proxy French augmented sixths, I was
> also saying it would be interesting if the substantial
> material is based on whole tones, but by noting modulation
> with third-tones I meant to say that things should not be
> strictly limited to whole tones; that would be pointless.
>
> Last note, 18ET also works great for standard blues. And
> try playing James Brown's "I Feel Good" in 18; the neighbor
> tones are killer!
>
> I fiddled with this tuning for a long time before writing
> anything, so I have sketch material for all kinds of stuff,
> one of which is a blues in 5/8 I might turn into a piece at
> some point.
>
> Cheers,
> AAH
> =====
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm afraid whole tone scale itself doesn't offer too much > interesting
> > possibilities for composition, as everything sounds the same in it.
> > And it was used so much in the music of the past that it's almost
> > unusable if you want to write New music based only on it. There are
> > still some possibilities in chaining augmented chords to get
> > interesting 6, 9 and 12tone chords. This can be emphasized when we
> > will combine augmented chords from different microtonally shifted
> > whole tone scales (like in 18 ET).
> >
> > Similar situation is with diminished seventh chord (and diminished
> > scale), which was refreshed by Bartok thanks to his chaining of
> > diminished seventh chords, and by Messiaen thanks to his polymodal
> > use of it.
> >
> > Daniel Forro
>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

Non hierarchical whole tone scale, with only one step size, even intervals, without modes, which offers only almost identically sounding chords and only one type of dissonance/consonance (it's something between, neutral, atonal or extra-tonal, similar to diminished scale - therefore both these scales were used for destroying tonality), can't be compared at all with hierarchical pentatonics of any type, which offer incomparably more for compositional work. It has nothing to do with the fact how old the scale is.

Yes, everything is useful, but composer should analyse well the material from the point of hidden features and usability, how long such material can be used alone without redundancy etc. etc. From this point of view whole tone scale can't offer much, and what's worse, this small amount of features was exhausted by composers like Debussy, Skriabin, Janacek... nothing to say about pop/jazz with altered chords (like 11+/5+).

Considering all this it can't be expected somebody could create something exciting, new, unusual, unheard, interesting, not boring... from it. It will be only recycling of well known patterns.

Daniel Forro

On 22 Sep 2009, at 3:31 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

>
> Sure I'll give it a shot - when you said that about 18ET a light > went off in my head :-)
>
> think about this - if you think whole tone is boring what about > pentatonic?
> That's been around a lot longer. My philosophy is "everything is > useful"
>
> Here is a metalish rock tune done with a whole tone basis - but its > not pure.
>
> http://www.traxinspace.com/song/41046
>
> I gotta run errands - if you want a download instead of the (bad) > on line play give me a holler.
>
> Chris
>

🔗Chris <chrisvaisvil@...>

No offense intended by my following thoughts.

It sounds that no matter what I come up with I may not be able to over come your predisposition against WT usage.

WT scales have not been exploited much in a pop/rock/electro idiom.

And as I've been considering the next layers for the WT piece I am composing I was actually surprised at some of the haronic possibilities. It seems the key is to avoid 5ths.

The proof will be in the pudding and I still hope to have something by the end of this week. (Not 18ET yet).

Chris
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Forró <dan.for@tiscali.cz>

Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 09:24:38
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Prelude in 18ET

Non hierarchical whole tone scale, with only one step size, even
intervals, without modes, which offers only almost identically
sounding chords and only one type of dissonance/consonance (it's
something between, neutral, atonal or extra-tonal, similar to
diminished scale - therefore both these scales were used for
destroying tonality), can't be compared at all with hierarchical
pentatonics of any type, which offer incomparably more for
compositional work. It has nothing to do with the fact how old the
scale is.

Yes, everything is useful, but composer should analyse well the
material from the point of hidden features and usability, how long
such material can be used alone without redundancy etc. etc. From
this point of view whole tone scale can't offer much, and what's
worse, this small amount of features was exhausted by composers like
Debussy, Skriabin, Janacek... nothing to say about pop/jazz with
altered chords (like 11+/5+).

Considering all this it can't be expected somebody could create
something exciting, new, unusual, unheard, interesting, not boring...
from it. It will be only recycling of well known patterns.

Daniel Forro

On 22 Sep 2009, at 3:31 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

>
> Sure I'll give it a shot - when you said that about 18ET a light
> went off in my head :-)
>
> think about this - if you think whole tone is boring what about
> pentatonic?
> That's been around a lot longer. My philosophy is "everything is
> useful"
>
> Here is a metalish rock tune done with a whole tone basis - but its
> not pure.
>
> http://www.traxinspace.com/song/41046
>
> I gotta run errands - if you want a download instead of the (bad)
> on line play give me a holler.
>
> Chris
>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

No reason to feel offended :-)

I have no predisposition against whole tone scale, I have been using it and am using it a lot in my works, but carefully, and well aware of the danger it can bring. So only just for contrast, or combined with some other material, or when it's a subset of another scale with more notes, or when I create some 12tone symmetric rows based on tritone relations. I appreciate that (still) rather unusual, atonal and alienating character of it. Besides tritone is my most favorite interval.

Whole tone scales were used a little bit by progressive and art rock groups, but for many other rock styles it's unusable, as there are no pure fifths there, so beloved by guitarists :-) Besides none of the intervals included in whole tone scale (except octave of course) will sound well with guitar distortion/overdrive effects...

Altered chords based on whole tone scale are used a lot in jazz, bossa nova and some other pop styles. Usually not as main chords, mainly as temporary passing chords, or between two more simple chords. For example: E - Bb9/5- - A. The reason for this is their neutral, unstable tonal character, as they haven't perfect fifth.

I'm surprised that you are surprised by limited harmonic possibilities of whole tone scale. Probably you have never met them before? Or is there another reason why you think there's some promising potential in it?

Concerning "avoiding 5ths" - there are no perfect 5ths in whole tone scale if you mean this :-)

Good luck with composing, I'm big ear.

Daniel Forro

On 22 Sep 2009, at 11:03 AM, Chris wrote:

>
> No offense intended by my following thoughts.
>
> It sounds that no matter what I come up with I may not be able to > over come your predisposition against WT usage.
>
> WT scales have not been exploited much in a pop/rock/electro idiom.
>
> And as I've been considering the next layers for the WT piece I am > composing I was actually surprised at some of the haronic > possibilities. It seems the key is to avoid 5ths.
>
> The proof will be in the pudding and I still hope to have something > by the end of this week. (Not 18ET yet).
>
> Chris
>
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Daniel,

I learned a lot of guitar by studying Jimmy Page - A naked interval of a 9th
is most beautiful on a distorted guitar (Think Dancing Days - at least the
way I played it - it may actually be a 6th - but whatever) - The major 3rd
isn't bad either - Sunshine of your Love by Clapton features that. Even a
tritone can work given good circumstances, using a minor 7th is great
also... This sort of brings me back to full circle of when I first came to
this list and was driving Carl up a wall (unintentionally) talking about
Chris Gross. Its all about texture - that is what Debussy did - correct?

Debussy used chords for color (at times) instead of function. Using a guitar
with distortion can make things muddy, yes, but with some judgment (in
register) one can use intervals to color a melodic line like Debussy did on
the piano. My personal taste usually means its a dyad (though a chord with
just 5th and 9th is excellent imho and is equivalent in pitch class to two
stacked 5ths).

I haven't found a single 12 TET interval that doesn't have some use with
distortion.

In short - distorted electric guitar can be much more than 5ths - if you let
it.

Chris

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

After playing Dancing Days in my head a few times, I still can't
figure out what 9th you're talking about in that song. Where is there
a ninth?

It should also be said that reducing the concept of an overdriven
guitar tone to exclusively mean a Triple Distortion Feedback Metal
Zone Inferno Of Hell sound misses half the fun. And even if we're only
talking about such ridiculously distorted guitar sounds, you will
obviously still hear plenty of intervals out there on the market for
people to enjoy than the fourth, the fifth, and the octave.

To be honest, at that level of distortion, the individual notes of a
power chord will have almost entirely lost their identity anyway. It
just starts to sound like one beefy note. So I would expect some
modern progressive metal band that wanted to make use of the whole
tone scale would probably just treat the power chords as if they were
single notes and play different scale degrees of the whole tone scale.
Maybe multiple guitars could be brought in, or guitars overdubbed, to
avoid intermodulation distortion with different chords.

On the other hand, at more 70's-ish levels of overdrive, all sorts of
wonderful and miraculous and perfectly ordinary 12-edo intervals are
used all the time.

-Mike

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Hi Mike,

I agree with everything you said

In Dancing Days the 9th (I'm thinking its actually a major 6th now) is in
the slide of the opening riff.

Playing around with C#DC#B over G (very roughly) And then you play the 6th
(A - F#) and slide down a major 2nd - of course that is an easy interval
because its the 4th and 2nd string at the 7th fret - make it 5th and 2nd
string you got a 9th of course.

Chris

On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 12:38 AM, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>wrote:

>
>
> After playing Dancing Days in my head a few times, I still can't
> figure out what 9th you're talking about in that song. Where is there
> a ninth?
>
> It should also be said that reducing the concept of an overdriven
> guitar tone to exclusively mean a Triple Distortion Feedback Metal
> Zone Inferno Of Hell sound misses half the fun. And even if we're only
> talking about such ridiculously distorted guitar sounds, you will
> obviously still hear plenty of intervals out there on the market for
> people to enjoy than the fourth, the fifth, and the octave.
>
> To be honest, at that level of distortion, the individual notes of a
> power chord will have almost entirely lost their identity anyway. It
> just starts to sound like one beefy note. So I would expect some
> modern progressive metal band that wanted to make use of the whole
> tone scale would probably just treat the power chords as if they were
> single notes and play different scale degrees of the whole tone scale.
> Maybe multiple guitars could be brought in, or guitars overdubbed, to
> avoid intermodulation distortion with different chords.
>
> On the other hand, at more 70's-ish levels of overdrive, all sorts of
> wonderful and miraculous and perfectly ordinary 12-edo intervals are
> used all the time.
>
> -Mike
>
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Hi Mike,

I agree with everything you said

In Dancing Days the 9th (I'm thinking its actually a major 6th now) is in
the slide of the opening riff.

Chris

On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 12:38 AM, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>wrote:

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> Non hierarchical whole tone scale, with only one step size, even
> intervals, without modes, which offers only almost identically
> sounding chords and only one type of dissonance/consonance (it's
> something between, neutral, atonal or extra-tonal, similar to
> diminished scale - therefore both these scales were used for
> destroying tonality), can't be compared at all with hierarchical
> pentatonics of any type, which offer incomparably more for
> compositional work. It has nothing to do with the fact how old the
> scale is.
>
> Yes, everything is useful, but composer should analyse well the
> material from the point of hidden features and usability, how long
> such material can be used alone without redundancy etc. etc. From
> this point of view whole tone scale can't offer much, and what's
> worse, this small amount of features was exhausted by composers
> like Debussy, Skriabin, Janacek... nothing to say about pop/jazz
> with altered chords (like 11+/5+).
>
> Considering all this it can't be expected somebody could create
> something exciting, new, unusual, unheard, interesting, not
> boring... from it. It will be only recycling of well known
> patterns.
>

I think I do not agree, too. I think neither 12EDO nor the wholetone scale are "exhausted". I cannot prove yet, but I have made some experiments that seem to indicate a direction where the trip could go. The key point I would call "reduction" - if you take that uniform WT scale and simply use all possible chords it offers, the chord structure will be uniform, too, which may tend to sound boring, I agree. But if you do NOT use all possible chords (as you usually do not use all possible chords of 12EDO!), I think you can regain variability.

I have some more elaborated details on my homepage:

http://home.datacomm.ch/straub/mamuth/modul/wt_e.html
--
Hans Straub

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

On 22 Sep 2009, at 6:23 PM, hstraub64 wrote:

> I think I do not agree, too. I think neither 12EDO
>

1. Did I mention 12 EDO somewhere?
2. Whole tone scale can't be compared with 12 EDO. First one is scale, with no modes and no subsets. Second is tuning system, chromatic total, with lot of possible subsets. Purely statistically: how much music was written in whole tone scale, and how much from all those subsets of western chromatic system (which includes also different pentatonic subsets)?

> nor the wholetone scale are "exhausted". I cannot prove yet, but I > have made some experiments that seem to indicate a direction where > the trip could go. The key point I would call "reduction" - if you > take that uniform WT scale and simply use all possible chords it > offers, the chord structure will be uniform, too, which may tend to > sound boring, I agree. But if you do NOT use all possible chords > (as you usually do not use all possible chords of 12EDO!), I think > you can regain variability.
>
> I have some more elaborated details on my homepage:
>
> http://home.datacomm.ch/straub/mamuth/modul/wt_e.html
> --> Hans Straub
>

I didn't study too deeply your theory system yet, but that one page seems to be confused and foggy on the first sight. But I can be wrong as I don't know your approach, your starting point and target in this theory.
BTW you show there only 3-tone chords (I wouldn't call them triads as this is term associated with different sense in harmony theory), and only four different structures, chord classes, types (in intervals they are: 44, 22, 24 and 42). Even limited whole tone scale offers much more triads, nothing to say about other combinations until the 6-tone chords.

I use different system, more logical and simple, offering all possible combinations including wide chord voicing (octave anywhere is excluded, also as tone repeating one octave up, and 14th would be two much between two adjacent notes, so I end with interval 10 in this case, indocated as X to have one cipher). Pure combinatorics :-):

3-tone chords
22 24 26 28
42 44 46 4X
62 64 68 6X
82 86 88 8X
X4 X6 X8 XX

4-note chords
222 224 226 242 244 24X 262 268 26X 286 288 28X
422 424 428 442 446 44X 464 468 46X 4X4 4X6 4X8
622 626 628 644 646 64X 682 686 688 6X4 6X6 6XX
824 826 828 862 864 868 882 886 88X 8X4 8X8 8XX
X42 X44 X46 X62 X64 X6X X82 X88 X8X XXX

etc etc etc

until

6-tone chords
22222 ...
...
44244 ..... (for example - jazz 11+/9/7/5+)
...
... XXXXX (last one)

There are some symmetric chords, too (my favorite).

Daniel Forro

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
>
> On 22 Sep 2009, at 6:23 PM, hstraub64 wrote:
>
> > I think I do not agree, too. I think neither 12EDO
> >
>
> 1. Did I mention 12 EDO somewhere?
> 2. Whole tone scale can't be compared with 12 EDO. First one is
> scale, with no modes and no subsets. Second is tuning system,
> chromatic total, with lot of possible subsets. Purely
> statistically: how much music was written in whole tone scale, and
> how much from all those subsets of western chromatic system (which
> includes also different pentatonic subsets)?
>

I am afraid we misunderstodd each other here - but never mind.

>
> I didn't study too deeply your theory system yet, but that one
> page seems to be confused and foggy on the first sight. But I can
> be wrong as I don't know your approach, your starting point and
> target in this theory.
> BTW you show there only 3-tone chords (I wouldn't call them triads
> as this is term associated with different sense in harmony theory), and only four different structures, chord classes, types (in
> intervals they are: 44, 22, 24 and 42). Even limited whole tone
> scale offers much more triads, nothing to say about other
> combinations until the 6-tone chords.
>

Of course there are much more combinations - but the point of my approach is exactly NOT to use all bossible combinations, with the hope of reducing the uniformness that way. Maybe comparable to the approach of the serial composition technique, which uses all 12 tones of 12EDO but introduces a number of new restrictions, with about the same aim.

But as I said, I'm not sure yet whether my approach will produce the predicted results...
--
Hans Straub

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

On 22 Sep 2009, at 10:42 PM, hstraub64 wrote:
> I am afraid we misunderstodd each other here - but never mind.
>
>
No problem...

> Of course there are much more combinations - but the point of my > approach is exactly NOT to use all bossible combinations, with the > hope of reducing the uniformness that way. Maybe comparable to the > approach of the serial composition technique, which uses all 12 > tones of 12EDO but introduces a number of new restrictions, with > about the same aim.
>
> But as I said, I'm not sure yet whether my approach will produce > the predicted results...
> --> Hans Straub
>
That's interesting approach, but then it will be rather difficult to proof what you want with such restrictions. My way would be to find all possible combinations (which is not so much in this case), then try to analyze some hidden order in it, find some features, cathegorize by intervallic structure (some have numeric rows up or down, or repeated intervals, same adjacent intervals, some are symmetric, some have narrow voicing, or wide one, there are mirror pairs... - all this should be helpful to find some contrasting stuff even in such homogeneous material) and then try to do something from it.

I have read now more from your pages, found a lot of interesting material, still I didn't understand all and will continue study. I like that unusual idea of whole tone scale in 19 ET. Your compositions are nice, would deserve better recording.

Daniel Forro

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Ok,

Here is the current whole tone scale composition that I mentioned
previously.

*The Good Lifeless has Become Boundless
such that it is written,
went where and windly
with pentacles of pie
down the screem
when when we find what it
is that can been and be we of their*

Lyrics by William Newbold

2 tracks of hobnox drum machines (Thanks for the tip!!)
2 tracks of hobnox sequencers
Performed tracks below
2 tracks of bass
2 tracks of sax
2 tracks of stratocastor electric guitar
1 track mustang electric guitar
1 track choir
4 tracks vocal

(sax and choir is the Roland GR-20)

http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/the-good-boundless-03.mp3

On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> On 22 Sep 2009, at 10:42 PM, hstraub64 wrote:
> > I am afraid we misunderstodd each other here - but never mind.
> >
> >
> No problem...
>
> > Of course there are much more combinations - but the point of my
> > approach is exactly NOT to use all bossible combinations, with the
> > hope of reducing the uniformness that way. Maybe comparable to the
> > approach of the serial composition technique, which uses all 12
> > tones of 12EDO but introduces a number of new restrictions, with
> > about the same aim.
> >
> > But as I said, I'm not sure yet whether my approach will produce
> > the predicted results...
> > --
> > Hans Straub
> >
> That's interesting approach, but then it will be rather difficult to
> proof what you want with such restrictions. My way would be to find
> all possible combinations (which is not so much in this case), then
> try to analyze some hidden order in it, find some features,
> cathegorize by intervallic structure (some have numeric rows up or
> down, or repeated intervals, same adjacent intervals, some are
> symmetric, some have narrow voicing, or wide one, there are mirror
> pairs... - all this should be helpful to find some contrasting stuff
> even in such homogeneous material) and then try to do something from it.
>
> I have read now more from your pages, found a lot of interesting
> material, still I didn't understand all and will continue study. I
> like that unusual idea of whole tone scale in 19 ET. Your
> compositions are nice, would deserve better recording.
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>

🔗hpiinstruments <aaronhunt@...>

Hi Daniel.

Thanks for the compliments. I have been scorned by some
as anachronistic for choosing to write such contrapuntal
works instead of going for something completely different,
but there are many advantages to working this way for me,
not the least of which is that I can work fast, and because
I personally like this music myself a lot, it's fun for me.

To those who do criticize, I try to point out the advantages,
that a big part of the style is the proper handling of
accented dissonances, and it is typical along with this to
have a relatively fast harmonic rhythm, so here those things
get infused with something fresh, and where ETs can
sound quite dissonant, one can really get away with a lot,
since all the expectations of the style guide the listener's
conception of melodic shapes and harmonies produced
by the ETs, insofar as the music of Bach, or the sound of
counterpoint in general, is well known. It may end up from
that point of view sounding like "out of tune counterpoint"
and in some cases it does sound that way to me, but on
the whole, I am doing things in each piece which only that
tuning is capable of doing, so it is not simply a useless
exercise in transferral of well known ideas to a new scale -
far from it - rather a way to investigate new territory using
a familiar language. All this is clearly obvious to some,
but still does not convince others ; )

About breaking up the scale differently, as I had already
done 9ET I first tried seeing 18ET as 9 x 2, but it didn't
help me much, not sure why. About other periodicities,
I also found 18 has a nice octatonic scale with a period
of a double octave. I did not use this of course explicitly,
but I did use patterns which modulate to 1/3 tone above
or below where expected, which is the same phenomenon
shown in that double octave pattern.

Cheers,
AAH
=====

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Aaron,
>
> you are right that this approach can bring interesting results,
> especially when somebody with your compositional skill will work on
> it. I admire your polyphonic works, you are able to work with
> additional notes in octave in various ET in quite natural way and
> make something new from it based on something old. Which is always
> good way - not pure experiment, not pure eclecticism, but well
> balanced. Compliments! Keep your way, I'm looking forward to whole
> tone piece. I'm sure you will find an interesting solution of this
> compositional challenge. 18 ET offers interesting relations, besides 6
> +6+6 it can be divided into 9+9, 3+4+5+6, 5+6+7... I can imagine also
> creating some subsets with distinguished different intervals, and use
> modes of it or modulations, or selecting size of the scale different
> from octave periodicity...
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
> On 22 Sep 2009, at 2:41 AM, hpiinstruments wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi Daniel.
> >
> > I agree that whole tone in 12ET gets boring very fast,
> > but my point was that 18ET breathes new life into
> > ideas based on whole tones. All of a sudden those boring
> > static sounds can become interesting again, because as Oz
> > pointed out, 18ET has the "delicious" third-tone interval,
> > and modulating around with those becomes exciting,
> > particularly because whole tones in 18 are exactly the same
> > as 12, so they set up an expectation for something static
> > and boring, and then - bam! that was different! Not sure
> > how far it could go, remaining affective, since I haven't
> > tried a piece proper... challenge to list members - maybe
> > Chris will oblige?
> >
> > Since whole tone structures include incomplete dominant
> > seventh chords or more characteristically augmented
> > dominants, and by proxy French augmented sixths, I was
> > also saying it would be interesting if the substantial
> > material is based on whole tones, but by noting modulation
> > with third-tones I meant to say that things should not be
> > strictly limited to whole tones; that would be pointless.
> >
> > Last note, 18ET also works great for standard blues. And
> > try playing James Brown's "I Feel Good" in 18; the neighbor
> > tones are killer!
> >
> > I fiddled with this tuning for a long time before writing
> > anything, so I have sketch material for all kinds of stuff,
> > one of which is a blues in 5/8 I might turn into a piece at
> > some point.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > AAH
> > =====
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm afraid whole tone scale itself doesn't offer too much
> > interesting
> > > possibilities for composition, as everything sounds the same in it.
> > > And it was used so much in the music of the past that it's almost
> > > unusable if you want to write New music based only on it. There are
> > > still some possibilities in chaining augmented chords to get
> > > interesting 6, 9 and 12tone chords. This can be emphasized when we
> > > will combine augmented chords from different microtonally shifted
> > > whole tone scales (like in 18 ET).
> > >
> > > Similar situation is with diminished seventh chord (and diminished
> > > scale), which was refreshed by Bartok thanks to his chaining of
> > > diminished seventh chords, and by Messiaen thanks to his polymodal
> > > use of it.
> > >
> > > Daniel Forro
> >
>

🔗hpiinstruments <aaronhunt@...>

Hi Chris.

The interest here lies in the pedal tone praxis giving a
clear sense of tonal center, but it still gets constantly
thwarted. The next step is to modulate between such
patterns, 18ET giving you several such places to float ; )

Cheers,
AAH
====

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Ok,
>
> Here is the current whole tone scale composition that I mentioned
> previously.
>
>
> *The Good Lifeless has Become Boundless
> such that it is written,
> went where and windly
> with pentacles of pie
> down the screem
> when when we find what it
> is that can been and be we of their*
>
> Lyrics by William Newbold
>
> 2 tracks of hobnox drum machines (Thanks for the tip!!)
> 2 tracks of hobnox sequencers
> Performed tracks below
> 2 tracks of bass
> 2 tracks of sax
> 2 tracks of stratocastor electric guitar
> 1 track mustang electric guitar
> 1 track choir
> 4 tracks vocal
>
> (sax and choir is the Roland GR-20)
>
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/the-good-boundless-03.mp3
>
> On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On 22 Sep 2009, at 10:42 PM, hstraub64 wrote:
> > > I am afraid we misunderstodd each other here - but never mind.
> > >
> > >
> > No problem...
> >
> > > Of course there are much more combinations - but the point of my
> > > approach is exactly NOT to use all bossible combinations, with the
> > > hope of reducing the uniformness that way. Maybe comparable to the
> > > approach of the serial composition technique, which uses all 12
> > > tones of 12EDO but introduces a number of new restrictions, with
> > > about the same aim.
> > >
> > > But as I said, I'm not sure yet whether my approach will produce
> > > the predicted results...
> > > --
> > > Hans Straub
> > >
> > That's interesting approach, but then it will be rather difficult to
> > proof what you want with such restrictions. My way would be to find
> > all possible combinations (which is not so much in this case), then
> > try to analyze some hidden order in it, find some features,
> > cathegorize by intervallic structure (some have numeric rows up or
> > down, or repeated intervals, same adjacent intervals, some are
> > symmetric, some have narrow voicing, or wide one, there are mirror
> > pairs... - all this should be helpful to find some contrasting stuff
> > even in such homogeneous material) and then try to do something from it.
> >
> > I have read now more from your pages, found a lot of interesting
> > material, still I didn't understand all and will continue study. I
> > like that unusual idea of whole tone scale in 19 ET. Your
> > compositions are nice, would deserve better recording.
> >
> > Daniel Forro
> >
> >
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

I agree with the analysis. I found that I liked the sonority C E Bb D (E
optional addition or substitute for the D) in the piece. Now on to 18 ET!

Chris

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 1:54 PM, hpiinstruments <aaronhunt@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Chris.
>
> The interest here lies in the pedal tone praxis giving a
> clear sense of tonal center, but it still gets constantly
> thwarted. The next step is to modulate between such
> patterns, 18ET giving you several such places to float ; )
>
> Cheers,
> AAH
> ====
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > Ok,
> >
> > Here is the current whole tone scale composition that I mentioned
> > previously.
> >
> >
> > *The Good Lifeless has Become Boundless
> > such that it is written,
> > went where and windly
> > with pentacles of pie
> > down the screem
> > when when we find what it
> > is that can been and be we of their*
> >
> > Lyrics by William Newbold
> >
> > 2 tracks of hobnox drum machines (Thanks for the tip!!)
> > 2 tracks of hobnox sequencers
> > Performed tracks below
> > 2 tracks of bass
> > 2 tracks of sax
> > 2 tracks of stratocastor electric guitar
> > 1 track mustang electric guitar
> > 1 track choir
> > 4 tracks vocal
> >
> > (sax and choir is the Roland GR-20)
> >
> > http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/the-good-boundless-03.mp3
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 22 Sep 2009, at 10:42 PM, hstraub64 wrote:
> > > > I am afraid we misunderstodd each other here - but never mind.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > No problem...
> > >
> > > > Of course there are much more combinations - but the point of my
> > > > approach is exactly NOT to use all bossible combinations, with the
> > > > hope of reducing the uniformness that way. Maybe comparable to the
> > > > approach of the serial composition technique, which uses all 12
> > > > tones of 12EDO but introduces a number of new restrictions, with
> > > > about the same aim.
> > > >
> > > > But as I said, I'm not sure yet whether my approach will produce
> > > > the predicted results...
> > > > --
> > > > Hans Straub
> > > >
> > > That's interesting approach, but then it will be rather difficult to
> > > proof what you want with such restrictions. My way would be to find
> > > all possible combinations (which is not so much in this case), then
> > > try to analyze some hidden order in it, find some features,
> > > cathegorize by intervallic structure (some have numeric rows up or
> > > down, or repeated intervals, same adjacent intervals, some are
> > > symmetric, some have narrow voicing, or wide one, there are mirror
> > > pairs... - all this should be helpful to find some contrasting stuff
> > > even in such homogeneous material) and then try to do something from
> it.
> > >
> > > I have read now more from your pages, found a lot of interesting
> > > material, still I didn't understand all and will continue study. I
> > > like that unusual idea of whole tone scale in 19 ET. Your
> > > compositions are nice, would deserve better recording.
> > >
> > > Daniel Forro
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
>
> On 22 Sep 2009, at 10:42 PM, hstraub64 wrote:
>
> > Of course there are much more combinations - but the point of my
> > approach is exactly NOT to use all bossible combinations, with
> > the hope of reducing the uniformness that way. Maybe comparable
> > to the approach of the serial composition technique, which uses
> > all 12 tones of 12EDO but introduces a number of new
> > restrictions, with about the same aim.
> >
> > But as I said, I'm not sure yet whether my approach will produce
> > the predicted results...
> >
> That's interesting approach, but then it will be rather difficult
> to proof what you want with such restrictions.

Well, a "proof" would be a piece of music, in the whole-tone scale but not "uniform"-sounding. This would, of course, not be a proof in the strict mathematical sense...

> My way would be to find all possible combinations (which is not so
> much in this case), then try to analyze some hidden order in it,
> find some features, cathegorize by intervallic structure (some have
> numeric rows up or down, or repeated intervals, same adjacent
> intervals, some are symmetric, some have narrow voicing, or wide $
> one, there are mirror pairs... - all this should be helpful to find
> some contrasting stuff even in such homogeneous material) and then
> try to do something from it.
>

That sounds good. Are you doing this at the moment? I would be interested about the results.

> I have read now more from your pages, found a lot of interesting
> material, still I didn't understand all and will continue study. I
> like that unusual idea of whole tone scale in 19 ET. Your
> compositions are nice, would deserve better recording.
>

Thanks for the feedback! The remark about the recording quality is a good one, for it is difficult for me to judge. Gotta give this some thoughts one day. Maybe I will need to invest a little in the medium term (at the moment, I just do homerecording with an ordinary PC)...
--
Hans Straub

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

I am curious:

Did the piece I posted sound too uniform then?

Thanks,

Chris

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 11:21 AM, hstraub64 <straub@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Daniel Forro
> <dan.for@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 22 Sep 2009, at 10:42 PM, hstraub64 wrote:
> >
> > > Of course there are much more combinations - but the point of my
> > > approach is exactly NOT to use all bossible combinations, with
> > > the hope of reducing the uniformness that way. Maybe comparable
> > > to the approach of the serial composition technique, which uses
> > > all 12 tones of 12EDO but introduces a number of new
> > > restrictions, with about the same aim.
> > >
> > > But as I said, I'm not sure yet whether my approach will produce
> > > the predicted results...
> > >
> > That's interesting approach, but then it will be rather difficult
> > to proof what you want with such restrictions.
>
> Well, a "proof" would be a piece of music, in the whole-tone scale but not
> "uniform"-sounding. This would, of course, not be a proof in the strict
> mathematical sense...
>
> > My way would be to find all possible combinations (which is not so
> > much in this case), then try to analyze some hidden order in it,
> > find some features, cathegorize by intervallic structure (some have
> > numeric rows up or down, or repeated intervals, same adjacent
> > intervals, some are symmetric, some have narrow voicing, or wide $
> > one, there are mirror pairs... - all this should be helpful to find
> > some contrasting stuff even in such homogeneous material) and then
> > try to do something from it.
> >
>
> That sounds good. Are you doing this at the moment? I would be interested
> about the results.
>
> > I have read now more from your pages, found a lot of interesting
> > material, still I didn't understand all and will continue study. I
> > like that unusual idea of whole tone scale in 19 ET. Your
> > compositions are nice, would deserve better recording.
> >
>
> Thanks for the feedback! The remark about the recording quality is a good
> one, for it is difficult for me to judge. Gotta give this some thoughts one
> day. Maybe I will need to invest a little in the medium term (at the moment,
> I just do homerecording with an ordinary PC)...
> --
> Hans Straub
>
>
>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Hi Hans,

Thanks for the listen and comment. Ok, so what people are after is a sense
of chord progression in a whole tone environment. That is indeed missing for
the most part. My mission on that piece was to write something non-Debussy,
Satie, ect.

I will keep this progression goal in mind when I put together the 18ET
piece.

Thanks!!

Chris

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 11:29 AM, hstraub64 <straub@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > I am curious:
> >
> > Did the piece I posted sound too uniform then?
> >
>
> Oh, yeah, I had to comment on your piece, too. It sounds good, your piece,
> definitely well done. It does, however, indeed not give me a feeling of
> harmonic change. It does not need that, of course; it has, to me, a kind of
> "modal" character. So if you ask me (which you need not, of course), I would
> say it uses the whole tone scale still a more "traditional" way. But I like
> the piece!
> --
> Hans Straub
>
>
>

🔗microtonalist <equiton@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗microtonalist <equiton@...>

That's great!

I did some brief analysis:

0 0
2 133.33
3 200
5 333.33
7 466.67
8 533.33
10 666.67
12 800
13 866.67
15 1000
17 1133.3

some interesting sounds in there...(love the wide third/narrow 4th at 467¢) <aside>Music is too cheap at $12 to the octave</aside>

The black note scale is interesting too.

Mark

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> I will,
>
> When I was playing with it last night I found some interesting chord
> combination.
>
> it would appear that 18TET is useful for much more than WT scales.
>
> Thanks for the insight on this.
>
> Chris
>
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 11:11 AM, microtonalist <equiton@...>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Random thought:
> >
> > Has anyone tried the following scale with 18ET?
> >
> > 0 2 3 5 7 8 10 12 13 15 17
> >
> > Which exists on the following 'circle' (straightened out here, but you get
> > the idea)
> >
> > ...3 8 13 0 5 10 15 2 7 12 17 (4 9 14 1 6 11 16 3...
> >
> > The generator is 5/18ths wide = 333.333cents.
> >
> > The 'keyboard looks like this: (in monospaced font!)
> >
> > B B B B B B B ( B
> > W WW W WW W WW W W(W W...
> >
> > An 11-note white-note scale and a 7-note black-note scale...
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
>

Prelude in 18ET

🔗Aaron Andrew Hunt <aaronhunt@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗Aaron Johnson <aaron@...>

🔗hpiinstruments <aaronhunt@...>

🔗hpiinstruments <aaronhunt@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

🔗Chris <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗hpiinstruments <aaronhunt@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Chris <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗Chris <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗hpiinstruments <aaronhunt@...>

🔗hpiinstruments <aaronhunt@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗microtonalist <equiton@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗microtonalist <equiton@...>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>