Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Mizarian Porcupine Overture, preliminary orchestral version (no percussion yet...)

Herman, this is sounding so well. I have been an admirer of your
Mizarian Porcupine Ouverture... I think this music is epic, even more
so with GPO microtuning capabilities at your disposal. Please tell
more of your experiences with GPO microtuning.

I am wondering, specifically, if there are options to trigger tuning
tables via midi note messages.

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Aug 24, 2009, at 4:32 AM, Herman Miller wrote:

> I've still got a lot of work to do on the orchestral version of
> Mizarian
> Porcupine Overture, but parts of it are starting to sound good, so I
> thought you might like a sneak preview.
>
> http://teamouse.googlepages.com/home
> http://teamouse.googlepages.com/Porcupine-orchestral-GPO.mp3
>
> I still have a lot of dynamics to put in, and reassigning parts to
> different instruments, but I'm starting to get an idea of what works
> and
> what doesn't. The original version only had 8 tracks, so it's taking a
> while to sort out which instruments should play which notes....
>
>

🔗Petr Parízek <p.parizek@...>

🔗Danny Wier <dawiertx@...>

Hey Herman,

This is sounding excellent. Can't wait to hear it with percussion!

I remember hearing this a decade or so ago as a MIDI file, played back on that cheesy synth you get with Windows with no reverb or anything (I still have to use that on occasion when I'm away from my synth). And I'm still struggling with a lot of the intricacies of orchestration.

~D.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Herman Miller" <hmiller@...>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 23 August, 2009 20:32
Subject: [tuning] Mizarian Porcupine Overture, preliminary orchestral version (no percussion yet...)

> I've still got a lot of work to do on the orchestral version of > Mizarian
> Porcupine Overture, but parts of it are starting to sound good, so I
> thought you might like a sneak preview.
>
> http://teamouse.googlepages.com/home
> http://teamouse.googlepages.com/Porcupine-orchestral-GPO.mp3
>
> I still have a lot of dynamics to put in, and reassigning parts to
> different instruments, but I'm starting to get an idea of what works > and
> what doesn't. The original version only had 8 tracks, so it's taking a
> while to sort out which instruments should play which notes....

🔗Torsten Anders <torsten.anders@...>

On Aug 24, 2009, at 3:26 AM, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> I am wondering, specifically, if there are options to trigger tuning
> tables via midi note messages.

I don't know about GPO in this respect, but the Kontakt sampler allows for retuning by scripting which allows for things like adaptive tuning or retuning individual pitches or (as I use it) pitch classes by MIDI messages. Various orchestra libraries can be loaded into Kontakt.

Best
Torsten

--
Torsten Anders
Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
University of Plymouth
Office: +44-1752-586219
Private: +44-1752-558917
http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
http://www.torsten-anders.de

🔗Danny Wier <dawiertx@...>

And I gotta whine about something--I want GPO now, but my laptop (netbook, actually) is too slow and RAM-poor to handle it. Too bad, because I think I could actually release an album using those sounds and charge for it.

~D.

> I've still got a lot of work to do on the orchestral version of > Mizarian
> Porcupine Overture, but parts of it are starting to sound good, so I
> thought you might like a sneak preview.
>
> http://teamouse.googlepages.com/home
> http://teamouse.googlepages.com/Porcupine-orchestral-GPO.mp3
>
> I still have a lot of dynamics to put in, and reassigning parts to
> different instruments, but I'm starting to get an idea of what works > and
> what doesn't. The original version only had 8 tracks, so it's taking a
> while to sort out which instruments should play which notes....

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Dear Torsten,

Am I correct in assuming that you can switch from, say, Pietro Aron's
1/4 comma meantone temperament to 12-tone Pythagorean tuning during
playback of a, say, Sibelius score via a very high or low midi note(which can be hidden in the score later) within an instrument channel?

I have at hand Sibelius 5 with Kontakt Player 2 installed. I don't see
a way to realize the above example.

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Aug 24, 2009, at 11:34 AM, Torsten Anders wrote:

> On Aug 24, 2009, at 3:26 AM, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>> I am wondering, specifically, if there are options to trigger tuning
>> tables via midi note messages.
>
> I don't know about GPO in this respect, but the Kontakt sampler
> allows for retuning by scripting which allows for things like
> adaptive tuning or retuning individual pitches or (as I use it) pitch
> classes by MIDI messages. Various orchestra libraries can be loaded
> into Kontakt.
>
> Best
> Torsten
>
> --
> Torsten Anders
> Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
> University of Plymouth
> Office: +44-1752-586219
> Private: +44-1752-558917
> http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
> http://www.torsten-anders.de
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

🔗Torsten Anders <torsten.anders@...>

Dear Ozan,

> Am I correct in assuming that you can switch from, say, Pietro Aron's
> 1/4 comma meantone temperament to 12-tone Pythagorean tuning during
> playback of a, say, Sibelius score via a very high or low midi note
> (which can be hidden in the score later) within an instrument channel?

Yes, you could do that.

However, I am actually interested in using tunings with more than 12
tones on a single MIDI channel. E.g., I am doing music in 31 ET or
adaptive JI. Therefore I am using a different approach: I fine-tune
individual notes. More specifically, for each note I am retuning the
playback of its pitch class by CC events. For example, if I want to
play middle C raised by 30 cent, then I send a CC event for tuning
the pitch class C up by 30 cent and then, at the same time, the
middle C note. I use 12 different CC events (CC 100-111) and
interpret the CC value as transposition in cent (e.g., CC 101 with
value 64+30 tunes all C# up by 30 cent, value 64 means 0 cent detuning).

The only limitation of this approach is that I cannot play chords
with more than 12 individually tuned pitches on a single MIDI channel
(there could of course by octave transpositions). My actual
implementation additionally has the restriction that there can be
only 2 pitches at maximum within a range of 100 cent.

This retuning is defined by a Kontakt script that is controlled by
MIDI messages. Because you can pretty freely program how certain MIDI
events affect the tuning, you could also realise your example
scenario. I based my approach on an existing script that also
supports changing the tuning by selecting some existing or user
defined tuning from a menu. I did not try this, but I am pretty sure
you could control this selection by MIDI events.

If you are interested, I can send you my Kontakt script (no idea
whether Kontakt player supports scripts as well or whether that is
only support by the full version of Kontakt). I would have attached
it already, only I don't have Kontakt with me in the office..

Best
Torsten

On 24 Aug 2009, at 14:05, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> Dear Torsten,
>
> Am I correct in assuming that you can switch from, say, Pietro Aron's
> 1/4 comma meantone temperament to 12-tone Pythagorean tuning during
> playback of a, say, Sibelius score via a very high or low midi note
> (which can be hidden in the score later) within an instrument channel?
>
> I have at hand Sibelius 5 with Kontakt Player 2 installed. I don't see
> a way to realize the above example.
>
> Cordially,
> Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> On Aug 24, 2009, at 11:34 AM, Torsten Anders wrote:
>
> > On Aug 24, 2009, at 3:26 AM, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> >> I am wondering, specifically, if there are options to trigger
> tuning
> >> tables via midi note messages.
> >
> > I don't know about GPO in this respect, but the Kontakt sampler
> > allows for retuning by scripting which allows for things like
> > adaptive tuning or retuning individual pitches or (as I use it)
> pitch
> > classes by MIDI messages. Various orchestra libraries can be loaded
> > into Kontakt.
> >
> > Best
> > Torsten
> >
> > --
> > Torsten Anders
> > Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
> > University of Plymouth
> > Office: +44-1752-586219
> > Private: +44-1752-558917
> > http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
> > http://www.torsten-anders.de
> >

🔗Petr Parízek <p.parizek@...>

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@...>

Ozan Yarman wrote:
> Herman, this is sounding so well. I have been an admirer of your > Mizarian Porcupine Ouverture... I think this music is epic, even more > so with GPO microtuning capabilities at your disposal. Please tell > more of your experiences with GPO microtuning.
> > I am wondering, specifically, if there are options to trigger tuning > tables via midi note messages.
> > Cordially,
> Oz.

No, but I've found that changing the tuning only changes it for instruments loaded afterwards. So you can import one tuning, load an instrument in one channel, import a different tuning, load an instrument in another channel, and switch tunings that way. I did that to reset the tuning to center around C6 for the piccolo trumpet and C4 for the contrabassoon (otherwise some of the notes would have been out of range).

It also responds well to pitch bends for tuning, which I needed to use for the piccolo solo near the beginning because it was so high-pitched that it would be off the end of the piccolo range with 15 notes per octave.

One thing it does have which I'm starting to use is key switching for instruments like the strings, so you don't need to use up an extra channel for tremolo, mutes, or pizzicato, and you can switch bowing styles with a key below the pitch range of the instrument. I used the "auto alternate" bowing and pizzicato options in the second part of Galatsia (not really tuning-related, but I did use Kirnberger III).

http://teamouse.googlepages.com/Galatsia.mp3

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@...>

Petr Parï¿½zek wrote:
> I wrote:
> >> To my ear, the fifths in 15-equal sound rather "out of tune" and
>> allowing narrower octaves could make it possible to use fifths
>> which are not as wide as 720 cents.
> > Another possibility might be to make a completely different rendering
> in, let's say, 22-equal, which offers an excellent version of
> porcupine, much better than 15-equal does.
> > Petr

Only the last part is actually in porcupine temperament (which was named after the overture, not the other way around). The range would also be problematic for a 22-note scale, but I could always try a 15-note porcupine subset of 22-ET and use pitch bends to get notes outside of that range.

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@...>

Petr Parï¿½zek wrote:
> Herman wrote:
> >> I've still got a lot of work to do on the orchestral version of
>> Mizarian Porcupine Overture, but parts of it are starting to sound
>> good, so I thought you might like a sneak preview.
> > Sounds nice, thanks for the link. Did you also consider the
> possibility of shrunk octaves? To my ear, the fifths in 15-equal
> sound rather "out of tune" and allowing narrower octaves could make
> it possible to use fifths which are not as wide as 720 cents.
> > Petr

GPO seems to ignore the size of the octave in the Scala file. In the original 1999 version, I used a specially designed sound font with the partials of the sound resampled to fit the 15-ET scale.

One possibility I guess would be to define an 88-note scale and set the Scala center to A1.... I'll have to try that and see if it's possible.

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@...>

Herman Miller wrote:

> GPO seems to ignore the size of the octave in the Scala file. In the > original 1999 version, I used a specially designed sound font with the > partials of the sound resampled to fit the 15-ET scale.
> > One possibility I guess would be to define an 88-note scale and set the > Scala center to A1.... I'll have to try that and see if it's possible.

Yes, you can define an 88-note scale and it works. I could even make a scale specifically for the piccolo solo that keeps it within range without having to use pitch bends from 12-ET. (Realistically it's at the extreme high end of the piccolo range, and it might be better on a solo violin anyway....)

🔗clumma <carl@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...> wrote:

> GPO seems to ignore the size of the octave in the Scala file.

Good to know; thanks, Herman.

> In the original 1999 version, I used a specially designed sound
> font with the partials of the sound resampled to fit the 15-ET
> scale.

I can't tell if it's just first-exposure bias, but that version
is still my favorite in many respects (I've kept all versions so
far).

> One possibility I guess would be to define an 88-note scale and
> set the Scala center to A1.... I'll have to try that and see if
> it's possible.

Let us know how it works.

-Carl

🔗clumma <carl@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Hello Torsten,

That is an interesting approach you have chosen. By all means, please
send me the Kontakt script, so that I may try if this fits to my setup.

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Aug 24, 2009, at 4:35 PM, Torsten Anders wrote:

>
>
> Dear Ozan,
>
>> Am I correct in assuming that you can switch from, say, Pietro Aron's
>> 1/4 comma meantone temperament to 12-tone Pythagorean tuning during
>> playback of a, say, Sibelius score via a very high or low midi note
>> (which can be hidden in the score later) within an instrument
>> channel?
>
> Yes, you could do that.
>
> However, I am actually interested in using tunings with more than 12
> tones on a single MIDI channel. E.g., I am doing music in 31 ET or
> adaptive JI. Therefore I am using a different approach: I fine-tune
> individual notes. More specifically, for each note I am retuning the
> playback of its pitch class by CC events. For example, if I want to
> play middle C raised by 30 cent, then I send a CC event for tuning
> the pitch class C up by 30 cent and then, at the same time, the
> middle C note. I use 12 different CC events (CC 100-111) and
> interpret the CC value as transposition in cent (e.g., CC 101 with
> value 64+30 tunes all C# up by 30 cent, value 64 means 0 cent
> detuning).
>
> The only limitation of this approach is that I cannot play chords
> with more than 12 individually tuned pitches on a single MIDI
> channel (there could of course by octave transpositions). My actual
> implementation additionally has the restriction that there can be
> only 2 pitches at maximum within a range of 100 cent.
>
> This retuning is defined by a Kontakt script that is controlled by
> MIDI messages. Because you can pretty freely program how certain
> MIDI events affect the tuning, you could also realise your example
> scenario. I based my approach on an existing script that also> supports changing the tuning by selecting some existing or user
> defined tuning from a menu. I did not try this, but I am pretty sure
> you could control this selection by MIDI events.
>
> If you are interested, I can send you my Kontakt script (no idea
> whether Kontakt player supports scripts as well or whether that is
> only support by the full version of Kontakt). I would have attached
> it already, only I don't have Kontakt with me in the office..
>
> Best
> Torsten
>
>
> On 24 Aug 2009, at 14:05, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>> Dear Torsten,
>>
>> Am I correct in assuming that you can switch from, say, Pietro Aron's
>> 1/4 comma meantone temperament to 12-tone Pythagorean tuning during
>> playback of a, say, Sibelius score via a very high or low midi note
>> (which can be hidden in the score later) within an instrument
>> channel?
>>
>> I have at hand Sibelius 5 with Kontakt Player 2 installed. I don't
>> see
>> a way to realize the above example.
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Oz.
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>

🔗Torsten Anders <torsten.anders@...>

Dear Ozan,

I just send the script offline. If anyone else is interested, please
contact me offline as well.

Best
Torsten

On Aug 25, 2009, at 9:59 PM, Ozan Yarman wrote:

>
> Hello Torsten,
>
> That is an interesting approach you have chosen. By all means,
> please send me the Kontakt script, so that I may try if this fits
> to my setup.
>
> Cordially,
> Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> On Aug 24, 2009, at 4:35 PM, Torsten Anders wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Dear Ozan,
>>
>>> Am I correct in assuming that you can switch from, say, Pietro
>>> Aron's
>>> 1/4 comma meantone temperament to 12-tone Pythagorean tuning during
>>> playback of a, say, Sibelius score via a very high or low midi note
>>> (which can be hidden in the score later) within an instrument
>>> channel?
>>
>> Yes, you could do that.
>>
>> However, I am actually interested in using tunings with more than
>> 12 tones on a single MIDI channel. E.g., I am doing music in 31 ET
>> or adaptive JI. Therefore I am using a different approach: I fine-
>> tune individual notes. More specifically, for each note I am
>> retuning the playback of its pitch class by CC events. For
>> example, if I want to play middle C raised by 30 cent, then I send
>> a CC event for tuning the pitch class C up by 30 cent and then, at
>> the same time, the middle C note. I use 12 different CC events (CC
>> 100-111) and interpret the CC value as transposition in cent
>> (e.g., CC 101 with value 64+30 tunes all C# up by 30 cent, value
>> 64 means 0 cent detuning).
>>
>> The only limitation of this approach is that I cannot play chords
>> with more than 12 individually tuned pitches on a single MIDI
>> channel (there could of course by octave transpositions). My
>> actual implementation additionally has the restriction that there
>> can be only 2 pitches at maximum within a range of 100 cent.
>>
>> This retuning is defined by a Kontakt script that is controlled by
>> MIDI messages. Because you can pretty freely program how certain
>> MIDI events affect the tuning, you could also realise your example
>> scenario. I based my approach on an existing script that also
>> supports changing the tuning by selecting some existing or user
>> defined tuning from a menu. I did not try this, but I am pretty
>> sure you could control this selection by MIDI events.
>>
>> If you are interested, I can send you my Kontakt script (no idea
>> whether Kontakt player supports scripts as well or whether that is
>> only support by the full version of Kontakt). I would have
>> attached it already, only I don't have Kontakt with me in the
>> office..
>>
>> Best
>> Torsten
>>
>>
>> On 24 Aug 2009, at 14:05, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>>> Dear Torsten,
>>>
>>> Am I correct in assuming that you can switch from, say, Pietro
>>> Aron's
>>> 1/4 comma meantone temperament to 12-tone Pythagorean tuning during
>>> playback of a, say, Sibelius score via a very high or low midi note
>>> (which can be hidden in the score later) within an instrument
>>> channel?
>>>
>>> I have at hand Sibelius 5 with Kontakt Player 2 installed. I
>>> don't see
>>> a way to realize the above example.
>>>
>>> Cordially,
>>> Oz.
>>>
>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>
>
>
>