Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Two and four cents

Dear friends.

Below I copied the note sent by Ozan Yarman. It is the result of ignoring the information available in files of Mario Pizarro where he could learn at least the name of the Piagui system for it is "Piagui" and not "Paigui" and that my surname is "Pizarro". It is not a nice habit to disregard the true names of people.

Ozan Yarman failed elemental principles of respectfulness when he wrote that he do not see where I am going with my constant manipulations of the Piagui scale and worse than that, his empty knowledge on this tuning option, attains to state that the Piagui scale has "finally become indistinguishable from 12 - tone equal temperament". This is another failed statement since mainly the first variant of the Piagui system or Piagui I, exhibits tone frequencies with about 4 cents difference regarding the corresponding e-tempered tones. So somebody needs to advise Ozan Yarman not to talk on subjects he ignores.
It also sounds inadmissible that he pretends to introduce the nonexistent reality that Piagui scales
resemble the quotidian Western tone-system.

Contradictory and good humor words: "What is this Paigui"?.

The above question indicates that Mr. Yarman has nothing to do with the Piagui scales whose qualities are also appreciated by examining its chord wave peak graphs which are shown in my files. There he could find photographs of Piagui and e-tempered scales harmonies.

I hope that Ozan Yarman think and visit the files section and check that Piagui scale chords are not indistinguishable regarding e-tempered chords, (mainly the variant Piagui I).

Thanks

Mario Pizarro

piagui@...

Lima, August 20, 2009
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I fail to see where Mario Pizzaro is going with his constant manipulations of this "Paigui scale" which has finally become indistinguishable from 12-tone historical well temperaments of Europe bordering 12-equal. What is this Paigui? How has its scale come to resemble the quotidian Western tone-system so much in a year? Does it deserve to be dubbed this way anymore since it is practically none other than the 12-tone scale of Western music?

I believe this topic is going nowhere in particular, contributes nothing refreshingly new to tuning list and should be checked by the moderators.

Cordially,
Oz.

? ? ?
www.ozanyarman.com

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

To clarify:

I intended no disrespect to Mario Pizarro, whose name I misread and
misspelled. The validity of this fact is verifiable with my eyesight
issues in incorrectly reading "Piagui", whatever that might be.

To clarify further:

I have no professional interest in this mysterious dodecaphonic scale
that Mario Pizarro wants the readers to believe matters so much. I
possess no desire to be mindful of the dozen or more versions of this
"baffling Piagui" that deviates from the tones of 12-equal by mere
cents. Furthermore, I have no intention to delve into a lenghthy
discourse about Just Intonation theory, consonance models, and the
reasons for temperament so that Mr. Mario Pizarro can attain a level
of informedness where his endeavours will be taken seriously by
distinguished members of the tuning list.

Indeed, I am not discussing a subject that I am ignorant of. In fact,
I have no intention to talk about "Piagui".

My point is quite simple: I have read all the messages of Mr. Pizarro
prior to my late absence and still fail to see where he is getting at.
In truth, I don't believe he is saying anything strikingly new or
conclusive.

So, why doesn't Mr. Mario Pizarro create his own yahoo or google group
on Piagui and continue his 12-tone adventuring there, since the
Alternate Tuning List focuses on tone-systems that exhibit strong
traits of microtonality not observed with 12-tone equal temperament
and its almost-indistinguishable variants?

Cordially,
Dr. Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Aug 20, 2009, at 7:48 PM, Mario Pizarro wrote:

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

Dear Mr. Pizarro,

not everybody has the time to study everything what's offered here. I
personally am also not interested in your research. It doesn't mean
you can call it ignorance.
It doesn't mean at all your research is bad or uninteresting.

I'm sure Mr. Yarman knows a lot in his own field of interest. BTW,
how deeply have you studied his messages and files? :-)

When he mentioned you and your research, it means he is interested.
So it's a start of possible discussion. You can continue and explain
him what's the matter. It will be more constructive way of your fight
for the respect.

Daniel Forro

On 21 Aug 2009, at 1:48 AM, Mario Pizarro wrote:

>
>
> Dear friends.
>
> Below I copied the note sent by Ozan Yarman. It is the result of
> ignoring the information available in files of Mario Pizarro where
> he could learn at least the name of the Piagui system for it is> "Piagui" and not "Paigui" and that my surname is "Pizarro". It is
> not a nice habit to disregard the true names of people.
>
> Ozan Yarman failed elemental principles of respectfulness when he
> wrote that he do not see where I am going with my constant
> manipulations of the Piagui scale and worse than that, his empty
> knowledge on this tuning option, attains to state that the Piagui
> scale has "finally become indistinguishable from 12 - tone equal
> temperament". This is another failed statement since mainly the
> first variant of the Piagui system or Piagui I, exhibits tone
> frequencies with about 4 cents difference regarding the
> corresponding e-tempered tones. So somebody needs to advise Ozan
> Yarman not to talk on subjects he ignores.
> It also sounds inadmissible that he pretends to introduce the
> nonexistent reality that Piagui scales
> resemble the quotidian Western tone-system.
>
> Contradictory and good humor words: "What is this Paigui"?.
>
> The above question indicates that Mr. Yarman has nothing to do with
> the Piagui scales whose qualities are also appreciated by examining
> its chord wave peak graphs which are shown in my files. There he
> could find photographs of Piagui and e-tempered scales harmonies.
>
> I hope that Ozan Yarman think and visit the files section and check
> that Piagui scale chords are not indistinguishable regarding e-
> tempered chords, (mainly the variant Piagui I).
>
> Thanks
>
> Mario Pizarro
>
> piagui@...
>
> Lima, August 20, 2009
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------
> I fail to see where Mario Pizzaro is going with his constant
> manipulations of this "Paigui scale" which has finally become
> indistinguishable from 12-tone historical well temperaments of
> Europe bordering 12-equal. What is this Paigui? How has its scale
> come to resemble the quotidian Western tone-system so much in a
> year? Does it deserve to be dubbed this way anymore since it is
> practically none other than the 12-tone scale of Western music?
>
> I believe this topic is going nowhere in particular, contributes
> nothing refreshingly new to tuning list and should be checked by
> the moderators.
>
> Cordially,
> Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
>
>
>

🔗djwolf_frankfurt <djwolf@...>

Dear Mr. Pizarro:

Am I correct that your system is

(1) an unequal (not all the scale steps are the same size) and irregular (not all the fifths are the same size) temperament

(2) of 12 tones to the octave

and

(3) intended for use in common practice repertoire?

Further, (4) is it correct that you make particular claims for the consonance of the triads in your system?

Further, is it correct that your system is

(5) not intended to recreate a tuning which was used in some historical performance practice,

and

(6) is not explicitly intended as materials for new or experimental music?

If you could answer the above questions with yes or no, we might better be able to understand your project and perhaps help you to understand the response or lack thereof to your work. The members of this list have a diversity of interests and areas of expertise, not all of which overlap. These interests may or may not overlap well with your own, and it may well be the case that there are no overlapping interests, but we'll never know unless you make it more clear, using the discipline of some common language, rather than sending out a steady stream of files and postings without paying attention to feedback or the absence of feedback.

It is often the case that musicians working with theoretical projects do so idiosyncratically, attempting to explain or explore matters from a blank slate. Such idiosyncratic theory-making is particularly in evidence in tuning theory. There is nothing wrong with this, and it can, indeed, be a very fertile and imaginative way of working, perhaps even the most natural way of working for independently-minded composers or theorists (I like the idea, for example, that every composer with a distinct style has her or his own implicit "Harmonielehre"), but going it alone runs the risk in practice that others will not be able to understand your work without effort, if at all. For this reason, it is really to your advantage, when working with other musicians, to first try to understand their work, figure out their language, and then try to enter the conversation. It has been a personal revelation to me, for example, to take a step back from my own tuning theory experiences (and, yes, prejudices) and listen to the conversation among stylistic algorithm theorists or Neo-Riemannians or the young geometrists or set theorists or even Schenkerians. It turns out that we actually have a lot in common and that sometimes our strengths complement their deficits. And yes, sometimes the opposite is the case.

Daniel Wolf

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Hans,

My suggestion is that the thread on Piagui be closed, if such a thing
is possible.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Aug 21, 2009, at 2:53 PM, hstraub64 wrote:

> --- In tuning@...m, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Mr. Pizarro,
>>
>> not everybody has the time to study everything what's offered here.
>> I personally am also not interested in your research. It doesn't
>> mean you can call it ignorance.
>> It doesn't mean at all your research is bad or uninteresting.
>>
>> I'm sure Mr. Yarman knows a lot in his own field of interest. BTW,
>> how deeply have you studied his messages and files? :-)
>>
>
> I am not sure what you want to say here. That not everybody has the
> time to study everything is close to a triviality. The point,
> however, was that Ozan's message seemed to suggest the moderators
> should close out Mr. Pizarro's postings - which I would clearly
> interpret as: his judgment is that they ARE bad or uninteresting. I
> have not followed closely the discussion leading to this point so I
> cannot judge - but moderating somebody out is quite a hard measure.
> Does Mr. Pizarro really deserve that?
> --
> Hans Straub
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
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>
>

🔗akjmicro <aaron@...>

I'll chime in. I think the Piagui thread has all the hallmark of snakeoil salesmanship. The first claims made were puffed up statement of the UTTER SUPERIORITY of his MIRACULOUS DISCOVERY etc. etc. I see one statement like that in broken English, and roll my eyes and move on.

Call me prejudiced, there may be something deeper there of substance, but I think it would be a very low probability.

However.....

I don't necessarily think the thread should be shut down, but I tend to ignore them myself. I feel it's important to keep everyone having the right to speak. If there is any substance, it may come out eventually. I know there are things that I strongly believe to be true that I would like the right to talk about, and I don't want them censored, so i fight for that right for others....

Best,
Aaron.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Hans,
>
> My suggestion is that the thread on Piagui be closed, if such a thing
> is possible.
>
> Oz.
>
> â© â© â©
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> On Aug 21, 2009, at 2:53 PM, hstraub64 wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel ForrÃ³ <dan.for@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear Mr. Pizarro,
> >>
> >> not everybody has the time to study everything what's offered here.
> >> I personally am also not interested in your research. It doesn't
> >> mean you can call it ignorance.
> >> It doesn't mean at all your research is bad or uninteresting.
> >>
> >> I'm sure Mr. Yarman knows a lot in his own field of interest. BTW,
> >> how deeply have you studied his messages and files? :-)
> >>
> >
> > I am not sure what you want to say here. That not everybody has the
> > time to study everything is close to a triviality. The point,
> > however, was that Ozan's message seemed to suggest the moderators
> > should close out Mr. Pizarro's postings - which I would clearly
> > interpret as: his judgment is that they ARE bad or uninteresting. I
> > have not followed closely the discussion leading to this point so I
> > cannot judge - but moderating somebody out is quite a hard measure.
> > Does Mr. Pizarro really deserve that?
> > --
> > Hans Straub
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> > of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> > tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> > tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> > tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> > tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> > tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> > tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

🔗djwolf_frankfurt <djwolf@...>

🔗clumma <carl@...>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

🔗clumma <carl@...>

🔗piaguiscale <piagui@...>

Dear Mr. Wolf,

Two days ago I responded your message but I don't find it so I am writting again.

About your questions:

(1)To make a clear response and since I use the term "semitone factor" (SF)to the frequency ratio between two consecutive tones, I say that the semitone factors are not equal, otherwise I would make an equal tempered scale.

As respect to the fifths, the three Piagui variants work with 8 pure fifths and four equal narrow fifths. This feature and others were determined by the scale itself once the two equations with four variables were solved.

Equation A) K^m P^n = 2
Equaton B) m + n = 12

K and P are two types of semitone factors. Twelve SF determine the 12 tone frequencies. Once the equations are solved we know how many K's and P's establish the tone frequency values.

m and n are integer and positive numbers. Variable m indicates how many K's features the scale. Similar explanation applies for n in conexion with type P semitone factor.

In 1985-1987, the Progression of Musical Cells that starts on C =1 was cell by cell developed until frequency 2 was accurately detected. it was the 612th cell of the progression. A group of 6 consecutive cells was the complementary data for solving (A) and (B) equations.
----
(2)Yes, 12 tones to the octave

(3) Yes

(4)No, I never made claims for the consonance of Piagui scale triads and won't do it.

(5) The Piagui system is an original result after more than 15 years of research. It would be a nonsense to recreate another tuning. To understand its fundaments, the reader could by my book "The Piagui Musical Scale: Perfecting Harmony", see the web "Mario Pizarro Piagui". ("Piagui" was wrongly put as my second name).

You can also get free of charge information from the book abstract if yo go to the files section of tuning, make a click on Mario Pizarro and will appear about 8 files. The first one is the one that contains enough information. It is necessary to have sufficient experience on mathematics to understand the whole subject.

(6)No, it is just an optimal scale. If you entered to the files section to read the abstract you can also see the harmony photos of the total 24 major and minor Piagui I triads in comparison with their corresponding triads of the equal tempered scale. These graphs were obtained by an especial software. All the Piagui chord wave peaks look aesthetic while the ones of the 12-eq. tempered are distorted.

You asked responses with just a YES or NO. Since some of them required a minimum explanation, I did it so.

Thanks

Mario Pizarro

piagui@...

Lima, August 23, 2009

🔗djwolf_frankfurt <djwolf@...>

Dear Mario Pizarro:

It seems clear that your tunings are unequal temperaments (so-called "well temperaments") much like those used in the 18th century as alternatives to meantone and bridges towards 12tet. Your argument for your tuning would be much more coherent if placed in that context. My honest suspicion is that your particular variation along these lines is not superior (in terms of either sum consonance or the particular distribution of consonance among tonalities) to a number of well-known historical temperaments.

I find it interesting that you do not make claims about sensory consonance of triads in your tunings, but you do argue for the visual "aesthetic" appearance of your graphics. I would argue (a) that the two are not unrelated (that is, with harmonic timbres, there will be a close correlation between sensory consonance and the complexity of the graphic representation), but (b) as we are concerned with music to be played on real instruments and heard by real ears, sooner or later the test of your tuning will have to be in terms of sensory consonance, thus any argument for your tuning without such a component will be incomplete and not particularly useful. If, however, you want to make a case for evaluating tunings entirely on a visual aesthetic basis, then I believe you have substantial work to do in making that case.

Daniel Wolf

Two and four cents

🔗Mario Pizarro <piagui@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗djwolf_frankfurt <djwolf@...>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗akjmicro <aaron@...>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

🔗djwolf_frankfurt <djwolf@...>

🔗clumma <carl@...>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

🔗clumma <carl@...>

🔗piaguiscale <piagui@...>

🔗piaguiscale <piagui@...>

🔗djwolf_frankfurt <djwolf@...>