Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Re: Recording of Henk Badings choral work

Hello -

The approx. 3 min. recording of the composition by Henk Badings I heard was on a CD burnt for me by Brink McGoogie at the Sonic Arts Gallery in San Diego. The track came from an old LP phonograph record entitled "Tricesimoprimal Music". I've not yet seen this record but I believe there are four of them offered for sale through Amazon.com.

I've found out through Google searches that Badings (1907 - 1987) was a prolific composer who made much use of the 31 note per octave scale. He was closely associated with the Huygens - Fokker foundation. Many different recordings of his music - performed vocally or on different kinds of musical instrument - have been made. I wish I had known about him before now.

Dave Hill Borrego Springs, CA

🔗clumma <carl@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Hill <ASCEND11@...> wrote:
>
> Hello -
>
> The approx. 3 min. recording of the composition by
> Henk Badings I heard was on a CD burnt for me by Brink McGoogie
> at the Sonic Arts Gallery in San Diego. The track came from
> an old LP phonograph record entitled "Tricesimoprimal Music".

Thank you, Dave. I have purchased several Badings recordings
over the years, but none have been microtonal.

Unfortunately, it would be difficult for me to obtain an LP
player. I have requested this title from the
Avant Garde Project:
http://www.avantgardeproject.org/

Do you know the name of the composition?

Best,

-Carl

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

>> The approx. 3 min. recording of the composition by
>> Henk Badings I heard was on a CD burnt for me by Brink McGoogie
>> at the Sonic Arts Gallery in San Diego. The track came from
>> an old LP phonograph record entitled "Tricesimoprimal Music".
>
> Thank you, Dave. I have purchased several Badings recordings
> over the years, but none have been microtonal.
>
> Unfortunately, it would be difficult for me to obtain an LP
> player. I have requested this title from the
> Avant Garde Project:
> http://www.avantgardeproject.org/

That's great. I looked up this record for a bit earlier today and
couldn't find it anywhere, and copies were going for $70-80 a piece. I
didn't know that the avant garde project existed. Hopefully this'll
lead somewhere, as I'm always eager to hear any piece of microtonal
music described in the type of terms that Dave described this one.

-Mike

🔗clumma <carl@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> > Unfortunately, it would be difficult for me to obtain an LP
> > player. I have requested this title from the
> > Avant Garde Project:
> > http://www.avantgardeproject.org/
>
> That's great. I looked up this record for a bit earlier today and
> couldn't find it anywhere, and copies were going for $70-80 a
> piece. I didn't know that the avant garde project existed.
> Hopefully this'll lead somewhere, as I'm always eager to hear any
> piece of microtonal music described in the type of terms that
> Dave described this one.
>
> -Mike

All microtonalists should avail themselves of...

AGP 7 - Ezra Sims
AGP 9 - Ben Johnston

And others as well.

-Carl

🔗joemonz <joemonz@...>

Hello Dave and everyone,

I have a digital copy of "Tricesimoprimal Music"
... in fact, it is a copy of Brink's vinyl LP.

Here are links to the two pieces by Henk Badings:

http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/misc/badings_sonata2-for-2-violins_1963_31edo.mp3

http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/misc/badings_contrasts_5-songs-for-choir_1952_31edo.wma

(those are long link names ... if there are line-breaks,
copy the URL's to a text editor and delete the line-breaks,
then paste each URL into the browser address box.)

"Contrasts" is in WMA format ... if someone wants to
convert it to mp3 and make it available, i'll put that
up on my website.

Unfortunately i never finished copying the extensive
liner notes ... but here is the info for these two pieces:

-----------

Tricesimoprimal Music
Washington University (record label)

==============================

Henk Badings
Sonata No. 2 for two violins 14:50
1963

Lento 3:04
Vivace 6:40
Molto adagio 13:00
Vivace 14:50

Bouwe Lemkes, violin
Jeanne Vos, violin

=============================================

Henk Badings
Contrasts, 5 songs for mixed choir 10:45
1952
Dutch text by Hendrik De Vries

Serenade (allegretto) 3:20
Elegy (poco lento) 6:20
Soldier's Song (tempo di marcia) 7:45
Mock Song (vivace) 9:27
Spiritual song (grave) 10:45

Hea Landheer, soprano
Dini De Vries, mezzo-soprano
Gerard De Vos, alto
Frants Muller, tenor
Piet Van der Meulen, bass

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com/tonescape.aspx
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Hill <ASCEND11@...> wrote:
>
> Hello -
>
> The approx. 3 min. recording of the composition
> by Henk Badings I heard was on a CD burnt for me by
> Brink McGoogie at the Sonic Arts Gallery in San Diego.
> The track came from an old LP phonograph record entitled
> "Tricesimoprimal Music". I've not yet seen this record
> but I believe there are four of them offered for sale
> through Amazon.com.
>
> I've found out through Google searches that Badings
> (1907 - 1987) was a prolific composer who made much use
> of the 31 note per octave scale. He was closely associated
> with the Huygens - Fokker foundation. Many different
> recordings of his music - performed vocally or on different
> kinds of musical instrument - have been made.
> I wish I had known about him before now.
>
> Dave Hill Borrego Springs, CA

🔗Kees van Prooijen <keesvp@...>

🔗Torsten Anders <torsten.anders@...>

Dear Joe,

Thanks a lot for sharing these.

Best
Torsten

On Aug 22, 2009, at 5:45 PM, joemonz wrote:

🔗clumma <carl@...>

monz wrote:

> I have a digital copy of "Tricesimoprimal Music"
> ... in fact, it is a copy of Brink's vinyl LP.
>
> Here are links to the two pieces by Henk Badings:
>
> http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/misc/badings_sonata2-for-2-
> violins_1963_31edo.mp3
>
> http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/misc/badings_contrasts_5-songs-
> for-choir_1952_31edo.wma
[snip]
> "Contrasts" is in WMA format ... if someone wants to
> convert it to mp3 and make it available, i'll put that
> up on my website.

Unfortunately, it's impossible to convert it to any other
formate without either reducing the fidelity or making
the file much larger.

> Unfortunately i never finished copying the extensive
> liner notes ... but here is the info for these two pieces:

Thanks for this also!

-Carl

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Thanks for providing links to these gems monz. The sonata sounds quite
provoking and the choir very soothing. But I wonder, are they truly
rendered in 31-edo? Or is that a shorthand for 7-limit JI?

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Aug 22, 2009, at 7:45 PM, joemonz wrote:

> Hello Dave and everyone,
>
> I have a digital copy of "Tricesimoprimal Music"
> ... in fact, it is a copy of Brink's vinyl LP.
>
> Here are links to the two pieces by Henk Badings:
>
> http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/misc/badings_sonata2-for-2-violins_1963_31edo.mp3
>
> http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/misc/badings_contrasts_5-songs-for-choir_1952_31edo.wma
>
> (those are long link names ... if there are line-breaks,
> copy the URL's to a text editor and delete the line-breaks,
> then paste each URL into the browser address box.)
>
> "Contrasts" is in WMA format ... if someone wants to
> convert it to mp3 and make it available, i'll put that
> up on my website.
>
> Unfortunately i never finished copying the extensive
> liner notes ... but here is the info for these two pieces:
>
> -----------
>
> Tricesimoprimal Music
> Washington University (record label)
>
> ==============================
>
> Henk Badings
> Sonata No. 2 for two violins 14:50
> 1963
>
> Lento 3:04
> Vivace 6:40
> Molto adagio 13:00
> Vivace 14:50
>
> Bouwe Lemkes, violin
> Jeanne Vos, violin
>
> =============================================
>
> Henk Badings
> Contrasts, 5 songs for mixed choir 10:45
> 1952
> Dutch text by Hendrik De Vries
>
> Serenade (allegretto) 3:20
> Elegy (poco lento) 6:20
> Soldier's Song (tempo di marcia) 7:45
> Mock Song (vivace) 9:27
> Spiritual song (grave) 10:45
>
> Hea Landheer, soprano
> Dini De Vries, mezzo-soprano
> Gerard De Vos, alto
> Frants Muller, tenor
> Piet Van der Meulen, bass
>
>
>
> -monz
> http://tonalsoft.com/tonescape.aspx
> Tonescape microtonal music software
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Hill <ASCEND11@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hello -
>>
>> The approx. 3 min. recording of the composition
>> by Henk Badings I heard was on a CD burnt for me by
>> Brink McGoogie at the Sonic Arts Gallery in San Diego.
>> The track came from an old LP phonograph record entitled
>> "Tricesimoprimal Music". I've not yet seen this record
>> but I believe there are four of them offered for sale
>> through Amazon.com.
>>
>> I've found out through Google searches that Badings
>> (1907 - 1987) was a prolific composer who made much use
>> of the 31 note per octave scale. He was closely associated
>> with the Huygens - Fokker foundation. Many different
>> recordings of his music - performed vocally or on different
>> kinds of musical instrument - have been made.
>> I wish I had known about him before now.
>>
>> Dave Hill Borrego Springs, CA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
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>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Thank you Joe!I'm especialy enjoying the choral work :)

2009/8/24 Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

> Thanks for providing links to these gems monz. The sonata sounds quite
> provoking and the choir very soothing. But I wonder, are they truly
> rendered in 31-edo? Or is that a shorthand for 7-limit JI?
>

I think it's indeed shorthand for 7-limit JI (or higher limit JI), which is
sometimes reached pretty perfectly in these pieces (to my ears atleast).
Though most of the time its pretty far off I think (in a natural way, a
choir or strings don't play perfectly in tune)

🔗Afmmjr@...

Nice to hear from you again, Ozan. As it happens, the AFMM had the
Badings piece performed by an Indiana University ensemble.

Unfortunately, although beautifully sung in 31-tone equal temperament
(which is really not hard to sing accurately), the NYC police refused out
recording engineer entrance down the block. You see, the Washington Square Park
held an anti-war rally (against the second Iraq war).

As you surely know, 31-tone ET contains just major thirds, harmonic minor
sevenths, and subminor thirds. However, Badings was THE 31-tone ET pioneer
in The Netherlands, along with Daniel Adriaan Fokker, and the Lemkes violin
duo.

best, Johnny

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗Petr Parízek <p.parizek@...>

🔗Afmmjr@...

Hello Marcel,

When I wrote:

"Unfortunately, although beautifully sung in 31-tone equal temperament
(which is really not hard to sing accurately)"
I was clearly not speaking about the recording from Tricesimoprimal Music.
I'm talking about a more recent performance.

You write: "I don't think they're singing 31tet.
The fifths are more impure in 31tet than in 12tet, and they're singing
pure JI fifths to my ears for instance."

I'll have to pull out the old recording and give it a check. But I
suspect that with all pure fifths the piece would be hard to pull off, becoming
unbalanced.

Question: can you sing a 31-tone scale? One way to learn is to listen to
Jon Catler's Cowpeople song; Jon lays down a straight ahead descending
scale that becomes part of the tune.

Also, Joseph Pehrson and I once discussed together the likelihood that
someone playing a trombone against a 72-ET electronic recording would
"justify" their harmonies. The recording played by micotonalist trombonist (no,
not all trombonists are microtonalists ; ) stayed true to the 72 plan.

It is also possible that the 696 cent flat fifth has begun to sound
normal, and therefore a stand in for pure. After all, even in 12 ET, players are
more likely to hold the ET fifth, especially those with perfect pitch.

all best, Johnny Reinhard

🔗akjmicro <aaron@...>

I've successfully sung, a-capella, 17-equal chromatic scales, due to the peculiar nature of the 'optimal half-step' of 17-equal, as has been discussed elsewhere. My experience and intuition lead me to believe that 17 equal a-capella is learn-able by skilled microtonalists.

I'm skeptical of anyone pulling off 31-equal chromatically and ending on a pure octave within, say, 5 cents without guide tracks or fixed pitch instruments and with the kind of accuracy we see in electronics, but I'd be happily proven wrong...any guinea pigs who would like to rise to this challenge over a drink here in Chicago?

Bonus prizes---can you do 23 equal? 13 equal? 11 equal?

AKJ

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:
>
> Hello Marcel,
>
> When I wrote:
>
>
> "Unfortunately, although beautifully sung in 31-tone equal temperament
> (which is really not hard to sing accurately)"
> I was clearly not speaking about the recording from Tricesimoprimal Music.
> I'm talking about a more recent performance.
>
> You write: "I don't think they're singing 31tet.
> The fifths are more impure in 31tet than in 12tet, and they're singing
> pure JI fifths to my ears for instance."
>
> I'll have to pull out the old recording and give it a check. But I
> suspect that with all pure fifths the piece would be hard to pull off, becoming
> unbalanced.
>
> Question: can you sing a 31-tone scale? One way to learn is to listen to
> Jon Catler's Cowpeople song; Jon lays down a straight ahead descending
> scale that becomes part of the tune.
>
> Also, Joseph Pehrson and I once discussed together the likelihood that
> someone playing a trombone against a 72-ET electronic recording would
> "justify" their harmonies. The recording played by micotonalist trombonist (no,
> not all trombonists are microtonalists ; ) stayed true to the 72 plan.
>
> It is also possible that the 696 cent flat fifth has begun to sound
> normal, and therefore a stand in for pure. After all, even in 12 ET, players are
> more likely to hold the ET fifth, especially those with perfect pitch.
>
> all best, Johnny Reinhard
>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Hello Johnny, nice to hear from you too.

It is a pity that we cannot hear the AFMM recording of Badings.
However, I am sceptical whether a choir or ensemble of continuous-
pitched instruments can indeed faithfully render the exact tones of 31-
edo.

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Aug 25, 2009, at 6:21 AM, Afmmjr@... wrote:

>
>
> Nice to hear from you again, Ozan. As it happens, the AFMM had the
> Badings piece performed by an Indiana University ensemble.
>
> Unfortunately, although beautifully sung in 31-tone equal
> temperament (which is really not hard to sing accurately), the NYC
> police refused out recording engineer entrance down the block. You
> see, the Washington Square Park held an anti-war rally (against the
> second Iraq war).
>
> As you surely know, 31-tone ET contains just major thirds, harmonic
> minor sevenths, and subminor thirds. However, Badings was THE 31-
> tone ET pioneer in The Netherlands, along with Daniel Adriaan
> Fokker, and the Lemkes violin duo.
>
> best, Johnny
>

🔗Petr Parízek <p.parizek@...>

I've listened to the choral recording for the second time now and my conclusion is that they are apparently trying to approximate, although with the usual amount of "vague intonation", the harmonic series in the first part and the subharmonic series in the second part (I'm not sure about the following sections). And whether the approximants are 8:9:10:11:12:13:14:15:16 in JI or 5+5+4+4+4+3+3+3 steps of 31-equal, it's totally unimportant in this context.

BTW: Have you ever heard Kyrie from Toby Twining's Chrisalid Requiem? It's about 50 times better performance.

Petr

🔗joemonz <joemonz@...>

It's really too bad that i didn't get the
rest of the liner notes from Brink's album
of "Tricesimoprimal Music".

But if Badings was following Fokker's ideas,
which i suspect he was, then he probably
_did_ intend his use of 31-edo to be an
approximation of 7-limit JI, but with the
syntonic-comma tempered out -- because
that is exactly how Fokker presents his
theories in his books and articles.

As Paul Erlich pointed out on this list
long ago, 1/4-comma meantone is one type of
"optimal" meantone for approximating both
5-limit and 7-limit JI. This can be seen on
the graphs i have on these webpages:

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/m/meantone-error.aspx
http://tonalsoft.com/enc/m/meantone-error_new.aspx

And 31-edo is pretty close to 1/4-comma meantone.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com/tonescape.aspx
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <p.parizek@...> wrote:
>
> I've listened to the choral recording for the second time now and my conclusion is that they are apparently trying to approximate, although with the usual amount of "vague intonation", the harmonic series in the first part and the subharmonic series in the second part (I'm not sure about the following sections). And whether the approximants are 8:9:10:11:12:13:14:15:16 in JI or 5+5+4+4+4+3+3+3 steps of 31-equal, it's totally unimportant in this context.
>
> BTW: Have you ever heard Kyrie from Toby Twining's Chrisalid Requiem? It's about 50 times better performance.
>
> Petr
>

Re: Recording of Henk Badings choral work

🔗Ralph Hill <ASCEND11@...>

🔗clumma <carl@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗clumma <carl@...>

🔗joemonz <joemonz@...>

🔗Kees van Prooijen <keesvp@...>

🔗Torsten Anders <torsten.anders@...>

🔗clumma <carl@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗Afmmjr@...

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗Petr Parízek <p.parizek@...>

🔗Afmmjr@...

🔗akjmicro <aaron@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗Petr Parízek <p.parizek@...>

🔗joemonz <joemonz@...>