Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning passionate pitch pumping

I agree with John Starrett concerning John D."s dynamic tuning method. I
would at least wanna keep the option of not smoothing out the change of
intonation as a pitch changes its harmonic position. What brought it to my
attention again was some recording of shape-note sings of which I was part
several years ago. I was Cool-editing the old tapes and getting them to
sound much better and I realized that, other than the fact that we're all
yelling our heads off all about hellfire, brimstone, damnation and all such
tame subjects, the thing that makes that music so effective is the pumping
of pitches. Sometimes it's a function of tone-painting -- when we sang
"Jehova shut them in" the "in" is the higher member of a minor third and
wow, did we flatten it consistently -- and other times the note is shifted
so as to make its half-step relationship to the next note narrower. Fifths
and octaves get nailed right on, no matter what, but thirds are all over the
map. And those passing tones? Those are some of the most wicked seconds alive.
This isn't much evident in most of the commercial recordings. Ya gotta gota
a convention with a couple gazillion people. And in spite of all that
pumping, we usually end up essentially on the same tonic pitch we start
with. There's one marvelous fellow from Georgia who assumed the role of
official pitchgiver who, when he intoned the major thirds of the tonic
chord, consistently sang a highly stretched interval. The choir as a whole
then settled the note down to something more or less Pythagorean, to my ear
at least. Nach, it's impossible to make accurate measurements of such an
aggregation of untrained voices, but I know I'd never get by with tuning the
thirds on a piano like those. <grin>
I'm not, for a moment, arguing that the sound of pumping pitches is
appropriate for this or that musical style. I'm just saying I like hearing
it and that I know of at least one style in Western music in which it abounds.

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>

Jay Williams wrote,

>when we sang
>"Jehova shut them in" the "in" is the higher member of a minor third and
>wow, did we flatten it consistently

Wouldn't the standard JI approach _sharpen_ the higher member of a minor
third?

>and other times the note is shifted
>so as to make its half-step relationship to the next note narrower.

Also, the standard JI approach makes leading-tone relationships wider.

>And in spite of all that
>pumping, we usually end up essentially on the same tonic pitch we start
>with. There's one marvelous fellow from Georgia who assumed the role of
>official pitchgiver who, when he intoned the major thirds of the tonic
>chord, consistently sang a highly stretched interval. The choir as a whole
>then settled the note down to something more or less Pythagorean, to my ear
>at least.

This is similar to Jerry Eskelin's observation about high thirds. Note that
in Pythagorean tuning, the "comma pump" progression doesn't shift the pitch
level.

>I'm not, for a moment, arguing that the sound of pumping pitches is
>appropriate for this or that musical style. I'm just saying I like hearing
>it and that I know of at least one style in Western music in which it
abounds.

Carl Lumma indicated in his response to John deLaubenfels that in his
(Carl's) retuning scheme, pitch dirft would not be compensated for, so the
comma pump would have its full effect. A Mozart piece might end several
steps lower than it begins.

🔗John Link <johnlink@con2.com>

>From: Jay Williams <jaywill@utah-inter.net>
>
> And in spite of all that
>pumping, we usually end up essentially on the same tonic pitch we start
>with.

Might you do an analysis of a song to show how that occurs?

John Link

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🔗Joe Monzo <monz@juno.com>

> [Jay Williams, TD 523.13]
> the thing that makes that music so effective is the pumping
> of pitches. Sometimes it's a function of tone-painting -- when
> we sang "Jehova shut them in" the "in" is the higher member
> of a minor third and wow, did we flatten it consistently --

> [Paul Erlich, TD 523.14]
> Wouldn't the standard JI approach _sharpen_ the higher member
> of a minor third?

I'll answer you, Paul: yes, of course it would. What you
missed here is that Jay never said anything about this
performance being in 'standard JI'. I'd think by the title
that the song is a spiritual, which most likely has lots
of 'blue' notes. 6:7 has always been one of my favorite
'blue 3rds'.

Regarding the 'tone-painting' aspect: this is exactly what
I find so beautiful about using a complex tuning system.
A great example is Robert Johnson in _Drunken Hearted Man_;
see my webpage:
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/rjohnson/drunken.htm

*All* of Johnson's pitches are 'all over the place', because
he's portraying himself being so dejected that he has to
stay drunk to drown his sorrows, and of course his ability
to sing on pitch is going to suffer accordingly! (give a
listen to my MIDI-file if you don't have the CD-set - but
the CDs really are an essential part of any music-lover's
collection.)

> [Jay]
> and other times the note is shifted so as to make its
> half-step relationship to the next note narrower.

> [Paul]
> Also, the standard JI approach makes leading-tone
> relationships wider.

Again, if this song has blues-ish tuning, pitches are likely
to be far different from a 'normal' 5-limit JI interpretation.
As Jay said,

> [jay]
> Fifths and octaves get nailed right on, no matter what, but
> thirds are all over the map.

I find in studying the tuning of blues songs that thirds
can be major, minor, neutral, super-major, sub-minor, or
any number of other in-between varieties.

And, contrary to Jay's experience with this performance, in
many great blues songs even the '5ths' and 'octaves' can also
be 'all over the map'! (again, see my Robert Johnson page)

> [Paul]
> I agree with John Link: please do an analysis and show
> us what's happening.

Yes, please! Bring it on!

-monz

Joseph L. Monzo Philadelphia monz@juno.com
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html
|"...I had broken thru the lattice barrier..."|
| - Erv Wilson |
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🔗Jay Williams <jaywill@utah-inter.net>

>
>> [Jay Williams, TD 523.13]

>> we sang "Jehova shut them in" the "in" is the higher member
>> of a minor third and wow, did we flatten it consistently --
>
>
>> [Paul Erlich, TD 523.14]
>> Wouldn't the standard JI approach _sharpen_ the higher member
>> of a minor third?
Zakly! That's why I remarked on it. And furthermore, that note is approached
from _above.
>I'll answer you, Paul: yes, of course it would. What you
>missed here is that Jay never said anything about this
>performance being in 'standard JI'. I'd think by the title
>that the song is a spiritual, which most likely has lots
>of 'blue' notes. 6:7 has always been one of my favorite
>'blue 3rds'.
Right. The style derives from John Playford's time in England. Although the
harmonies are "functional" in the major/minor sense, the minor key ones,
especially, are what many people would call "modal" that is, they're _never
in harmonic minor, but a mix of Dorian and Melodic Minor. As I either said
or implied, the groups that make recordings try their best to attain JI, but
in the sings at conventions where the "folks" are, other principles abound.
When I spoke of leading tones, I not only meant those from 7 to 1, but the
downward ones like from 6o to 5 in a minor subdominant to dominant. It's
this latter that's noticeable narrowed on many occasions.

>> [Paul]
>> Also, the standard JI approach makes leading-tone
>> relationships wider.
>
>Again, if this song has blues-ish tuning, pitches are likely
>to be far different from a 'normal' 5-limit JI interpretation.
>As Jay said,
>
>> [jay]
>> Fifths and octaves get nailed right on, no matter what, but
>> thirds are all over the map.
>
>I find in studying the tuning of blues songs that thirds
>can be major, minor, neutral, super-major, sub-minor, or
>any number of other in-between varieties.
>
>And, contrary to Jay's experience with this performance, in
>many great blues songs even the '5ths' and 'octaves' can also
>be 'all over the map'! (again, see my Robert Johnson page)
Yep, I've heard that, too, lotsa recordings by '20's blues singers are
intonationally liberated for every interval, but not so, the octaves,
fourths, and fifths in shape note singing.
These hymns are written in three parts; the women sing the 3 parts an octave
higher so it's a six part texture.

>> [Paul]
>> I agree with John Link: please do an analysis and show
>> us what's happening.
Hmmm. I know I've been unaccountably mum, but fact is, I've binna ponderin'
what sorta analysis I could provide that would be of use. I'm not in a
position to scan the music and send it along, but maybe I could manufacture
a MIDI file of one of these thingies and bend the pitches to approximate
what I've heard them do. For "authenticity"'s sake, I could stuff in the
program number for that "chorus of voices" patch. Or, I could send an mp3
file and someone could upload it to an appropriate place. (I've not dealt
with the uploading of such, yet.)
Ya see, if y'awls could read Braille music, this would be so easy. Anything
in that code has an ASCII equivalent. <grin>
Btw, I tried going to http://www.shapenote.com and got there, but my
screen-reader didn't seem ta make anything outa what's there. Or, is it
really blank?
Oh! But I just found one truly wondrous example of the kind of anomalies
people put in this stuff. In the hymn called "Soar Away!" which is in D
minor, on the words, "Fly! Fly! Fly!", the melody is D-quarter F-quarter
F-half and the chords are all D minor: root position, second inversion, root
position. The tenor line is: A, D, D. Well! on one rendition I have the
tenors consistently flatten the second D -- the one in the 6/4 voicing -- so
it feels like an augmented triad but in great and glorious need of resolution.
>Yes, please! Bring it on!
>>
>

🔗Joe Monzo <monz@juno.com>

> [Jay Williams, TD 526.12]
> maybe I could manufacture MIDI file of one of these thingies
> and bend the pitches to approximate what I've heard them do.

That would be an excellent solution! I did a very in-depth
analysis last year in TD 132.2, which is at
http://www.onelist.com/messages/tuning?archive=132

That analysis was on a MIDI-file of an Etta James blues song.
I found the pitch-bends in the file to work very well in
creating an evocative performance in this style, and they
provided much material for consideration in my paper.

You could probably do a good job in vonveying shape-note
style to us via MIDI.

> Ya see, if y'awls could read Braille music, this would be so
> easy. Anything in that code has an ASCII equivalent. <grin>

Well, then it *is* easy to send that to the Tuning List!
Just send us the ASCII equivalents, and we'll take a look
at it!

-monz