"Ordered modes?" (was Re: [tuning] Tunings and Scales are different animals?)

> Not only there's a symmetry in accidentals, but also in intervallic
> structure - Lydian and Locrian are symmetric, Ionian with Phrygian,
> Mixolydian with Aeolian, and Dorian has self-symmetry (first and
> second tetrachords are the same).
>
> Funny is when we add one more flat, we will get again Lydian, from
> Db. Opposite, with 4 sharps result is again Locrian, on D#.

And if you keep a D in the bass and you start playing D# Locrian, it's
one step brighter than Lydian is. This is one of the rare cases in
which I find that some sort of "ordering" of the concept of a "mode"
applies - the D fits mainly in the lower register, and the D# mainly
in the upper register. Not so much for critical band reasons, but
because it just seems to be harmonically what makes the most sense.
That D won't quite sound natural in the upper register as a half step
below the D#, and the D# won't sound so hot in the lower register
either - those notes will actually sound extramodal. And this isn't
for critical band reasons - I think it still has to do with
Rothenberg's principle of hearing scales in terms of seconds and
thirds and such. The scale that sounds most natural over this mode is
something like the following:

D E F# G# A B C# / D# E F# G# A B C# / D# E F# G# A B C# / D#....

So that a D is in on the bottom and the rest above are D#'s. To think
of it this way (and especially to play melodies in this setup) sounds
way more natural than sticking both D and D# in at every octave, which
would be four half steps in a row and sounds fairly confusing. D's
below that root D can be natural as well. I'm not sure if this
indicates some kind of a setup by which there are certain
circumstances in which a mode can in fact be ordered, but if you stick
a D in under any D# the above setup, it will actually sound almost
extramodal. Perhaps modes can be sectioned off to different registers?

> By historical development of European music it happened, that always
> middle of those three major and three minor scales was selected as
> "main" major and "main" minor for future use (golden middle way).
> Maybe European music would be much more contrasting if the most major
> and the most minor scales were selected (Lydian and Phrygian). But of
> course these scales were used in folklore and church music, and since
> 19th century again in common classical music.
>
> Daniel Forro

Carl told me a while ago that they were chosen because they're the
only modes that lie adjacent to a diminished fifth, which supposedly
strengthens resolution to the tonic. I still feel like you can have a
pretty strong tonal center in Dorian and Phrygian and so on (bII
resolves to I quite nicely) but perhaps that line of reasoning swayed
them into picking the modes they did.

-Mike

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> Carl told me a while ago that they were chosen because they're the
> only modes that lie adjacent to a diminished fifth,

That's Paul Erlich's explanation.

> I still feel like you can have a
> pretty strong tonal center in Dorian and Phrygian and so on (bII
> resolves to I quite nicely) but perhaps that line of reasoning swayed
> them into picking the modes they did.

I don't think the picking was a conscious process at all,
if that's what you're getting at.

-Carl

On 20 Apr 2009, at 8:01 PM, Mike Battaglia wrote:
> And if you keep a D in the bass and you start playing D# Locrian, it's
> one step brighter than Lydian is. This is one of the rare cases in
> which I find that some sort of "ordering" of the concept of a "mode"
> applies - the D fits mainly in the lower register, and the D# mainly
> in the upper register. Not so much for critical band reasons, but
> because it just seems to be harmonically what makes the most sense.
> That D won't quite sound natural in the upper register as a half step
> below the D#, and the D# won't sound so hot in the lower register
> either - those notes will actually sound extramodal. And this isn't
> for critical band reasons - I think it still has to do with
> Rothenberg's principle of hearing scales in terms of seconds and
> thirds and such. The scale that sounds most natural over this mode is
> something like the following:
>
> D E F# G# A B C# / D# E F# G# A B C# / D# E F# G# A B C# / D#....
>
> So that a D is in on the bottom and the rest above are D#'s. To think
> of it this way (and especially to play melodies in this setup) sounds
> way more natural than sticking both D and D# in at every octave, which
> would be four half steps in a row and sounds fairly confusing. D's
> below that root D can be natural as well. I'm not sure if this
> indicates some kind of a setup by which there are certain
> circumstances in which a mode can in fact be ordered, but if you stick
> a D in under any D# the above setup, it will actually sound almost
> extramodal. Perhaps modes can be sectioned off to different registers?
>

I don't understand what you are talking about here, and how it's connected to the original thread about modal/functional harmony. If this is your view of "natural" using of mode, stay with it. I don't see anything natural and typical for that mode in it, and nothing what's connected to modal harmony. :-) But in music everything is possible in the right context.
> Carl told me a while ago that they were chosen because they're the
> only modes that lie adjacent to a diminished fifth, which supposedly
> strengthens resolution to the tonic.
>
I don't think this is the reason, as that diminished fifth is on different grades of both scales, and resolution is different. I have another hypothesis. I agree that there must be some connection to the functional harmony and of course also to the interval of diminished fifth. Because Ionian ending formula D7 - T has that diminished fifth in the first chord which is resolved. Lydian D7 - T has major 7th in the first chord, diminished fifth is missing (there's pure fifth between third and seventh in the first chord), and mixolydian dominant has minor 7th chord, again without diminished fifth (it's again pure fifth). All this weaken power of that narrow Ionian resolution. So they selected Ionian.

For minor scales: Dorian and Aoelian has the same minor 7th chords as dominants, but Dorian has major subdominant, which sounded archaic. Besides Aeolian can be found on the 6th grade of Ionian as a mode of Ionian. And ending formula could be easily improved by using of major dominant chord, still it's not so narrow chromatic resolution as in Ionian. Phrygian couldn't use dominant chord at all, because it's diminished chord, so they have used II or VII grade resolved to major tonic, which sounds too exclusively. So from all those reasons probably they selected Aeolian.

Besides both Ionian and Aeolian were new scales not present in the original Middle Age system of 4 authentic and 4 plagal modes, and are adjacent to them on both sides (C - DEFG - A). And because starting only two distinct modes (but with all transpositions) would be still boring despite major/minor contrast, composers must learned how to used more chromatized tone terrain, and develop new ways of harmony - more rich than modal, based on new functional relations inside the newly defined tonality.

But who knows, I was not there those times...

Daniel Forro