Comma shifts vs. meantone

A few years ago I did a MIDI version of Ravel's _Pavane pour une enfante d�funte_ in various ET's. As you might expect, the meantone ones seemed to work out the best.

http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/pavane-31.mid

I also made an attempt at a 5-limit JI version. Full of comma shifts. There's just no way to tune this without running into problems with commmas. Do you use the sharp version of A, and conflict with an earlier note, or the flat version of A, and conflict with a currently playing note? Whichever way you go, it sounds bad in one place or another. It's hard listening to this version all the way through; it really brings out the clash between Ravel's harmonic style and the intricacies of pure 5-limit JI.

http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/pavane-j5-adj.mid

A 19-limit JI scale makes an interesting contrast. This is just a plain 12-note scale, no adaptation or anything. There are some rough spots, but also some parts that work surprisingly well. Music made specifically for this tuning could be written to take advantage of its harmonic qualities while avoiding the rough parts.

http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/pavane-j19.mid

But the biggest surprise of the experiment was this 64-ET version.

http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/pavane-64.mid

Without much to recommend it -- it's not even 5-limit consistent -- this tuning turns out to be quite nice in actual practice. It just goes to show you need to trust your ears, not the numbers.

Hate to be a negative nancy, but I don't care much for any
of these renditions. I liked 31 the best... they seemed to
get worse as I went down the post. The opening downward
fifth in the bass of the 19-limit version almost sent me
through the roof. The 64-ET version just seemed to have
a pervasive unnerving quality.

I suspect I'd prefer 12 to 31, due to the better fifths.
I guess I'd try 9-limit JI harmony with 12-ET root motions,
but it'd be a ton of work with the tools I know of.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...> wrote:
>
> A few years ago I did a MIDI version of Ravel's _Pavane pour
> une enfante défunte_ in various ET's. As you might expect,
> the meantone ones seemed to work out the best.
>
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/pavane-31.mid
>
> I also made an attempt at a 5-limit JI version. Full of comma
> shifts.
> There's just no way to tune this without running into problems
> with commmas. Do you use the sharp version of A, and conflict
> with an earlier note, or the flat version of A, and conflict
> with a currently playing note? Whichever way you go, it sounds
> bad in one place or another. It's hard listening to this version
> all the way through; it really brings out the clash between
> Ravel's harmonic style and the intricacies of pure 5-limit JI.
>
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/pavane-j5-adj.mid
>
> A 19-limit JI scale makes an interesting contrast. This is just
> a plain 12-note scale, no adaptation or anything. There are
> some rough spots, but also some parts that work surprisingly
> well. Music made specifically for this tuning could be written
> to take advantage of its harmonic qualities while avoiding the
> rough parts.
>
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/pavane-j19.mid
>
> But the biggest surprise of the experiment was this 64-ET
> version.
>
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/pavane-64.mid
>
> Without much to recommend it -- it's not even 5-limit
> consistent -- this tuning turns out to be quite nice in actual
> practice. It just goes to show you need to trust your ears,
> not the numbers.
>

Hello Herman,

First of all, wow this must have cost you so much work.
Respect.

I also made an attempt at a 5-limit JI version. Full of comma shifts.
> There's just no way to tune this without running into problems with
> commmas. Do you use the sharp version of A, and conflict with an earlier
> note, or the flat version of A, and conflict with a currently playing
> note? Whichever way you go, it sounds bad in one place or another. It's
> hard listening to this version all the way through; it really brings out
> the clash between Ravel's harmonic style and the intricacies of pure
> 5-limit JI.
>
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/pavane-j5-adj.mid
>

Yes it's very difficult to interpret everything.
But I'm quite sure 5-limit is capable of giving a perfect tuning for it.

Could you send me the original midi file and I'll make an attempt at tuning
a small part of it.

Marcel

Marcel de Velde wrote:
> Hello Herman,
> > First of all, wow this must have cost you so much work.
> Respect.
> > I also made an attempt at a 5-limit JI version. Full of comma shifts.
> There's just no way to tune this without running into problems with
> commmas. Do you use the sharp version of A, and conflict with an
> earlier
> note, or the flat version of A, and conflict with a currently playing
> note? Whichever way you go, it sounds bad in one place or another. It's
> hard listening to this version all the way through; it really brings
> out
> the clash between Ravel's harmonic style and the intricacies of pure
> 5-limit JI.
> > http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/pavane-j5-adj.mid
> > > Yes it's very difficult to interpret everything.
> But I'm quite sure 5-limit is capable of giving a perfect tuning for it.
> > Could you send me the original midi file and I'll make an attempt at > tuning a small part of it.
> > Marcel

There's a 12-ET version:

http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/pavane-12.mid

Note that the original piano score uses both G# and Ab. You should be able to tell which is which from the context, but I can look up which is which if you have any questions.

Herman Miller wrote:
> Marcel de Velde wrote:
>> Could you send me the original midi file and I'll make an attempt at >> tuning a small part of it.
>>
>> Marcel
> > There's a 12-ET version:
> > http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/pavane-12.mid
> > Note that the original piano score uses both G# and Ab. You should be > able to tell which is which from the context, but I can look up which is > which if you have any questions.

You might find the original piano version easier to work with. I don't have a MIDI of it myself, but I found one on this web page:

http://pianomidi.org/html/ravel.shtml

Hi Herman,

You might find the original piano version easier to work with. I don't
> have a MIDI of it myself, but I found one on this web page:
>
> http://pianomidi.org/html/ravel.shtml
>

Ok thanks.
I have a lot of other music I wish to retune first but will try part of this
one after that.

Marcel