Diagrammatic Tunings and "Well" Temperament

Hello, I posted this over at the bach_tunings Yahoo group but that
group hasn't had messages posted since Sep 2008.

After reading some papers by Bradley Lehman, Charles Francis and
Herbert Kellner I have some issues.
First, these authors seem to be absolutely convinced that the patterns
on, say, Bach's WTC cover page and Bach's signet indicate some kind of
temperament system despite the fact there is no evidence for this. It
would seem these authors are dabbling in some sort of musical "Da
Vinci Code". Just a tad short of numerology. Although the tuning
systems suggested by these authors are usable in all keys, they don't
differ significantly IMHO from those previously provided by
Werckmeister, Neidhardt, Young and others. I just find it difficult
to accept that if a particular tuning system is required/desired for a
piece(s) that the composer would "hide" it in this manner. (composer
Johann Mattheson quite clearly published a monochord ET tuning overlay
in 1722.)

The only paper I've read that delves into Bach tuning by sticking to
and actually citing portions of relevant historical documents is that
by R.A. Rasch. Of course Rasch concludes that while "Well
Temperament" should not be translated as ET, the WTC was intended for
ET (which of course puts him at odds with other modern theorists).

Weighing Rasch's view with that of, say, Owen Jorgensen, I conclude
that "Well Temperament" can refer to any 12-tone system that is
acceptably playable in all 12 keys and can refer to either an
irregular temperament or ET. Whether "acceptably" can include things
like wide Pythagorean thirds (408 cents) is a matter of personal
taste. And whether 12-key sets of pieces like the WTC were intended
for ET or not will probably never be resolved. Sincerely,

Hi ham,

Not surprising that you have issues with authors like Lehman, Francis,
Kellner and Jorgensen.
Their writings and scientific methods - or lack thereof - have been sharply
criticised by scholarly reviewers.

There have been numerous - IMHO unsuccessful - modern attempts to relate the
Bach WTC squiggle and signet ring with a WIDE ASSORTMENT of temperaments.

Just for you to know, this topic has been recently amply discussed in the
online forum HPSCHD-L.
http://www.albany.edu/hpschd-l/
The best scholar in the discussion is undoubtedly Ibo Ortgies.
You will find his opinion in
http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=HPSCHD-L
entering in the search:
- The subject: Lehman's
- The author: Ortgies
- Since: January 2009

Please also note that my recent Unequal Temperaments book includes a full
coverage of the modern proposals for Bach's temperament and some practical
conclusions for the modern musician.

Kind regards

Claudio

http://temper.braybaroque.ie/

_____

From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
ham_45242
Sent: 09 February 2009 17:41
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [tuning] Diagrammatic Tunings and "Well" Temperament

Hello, I posted this over at the bach_tunings Yahoo group but that
group hasn't had messages posted since Sep 2008.

After reading some papers by Bradley Lehman, Charles Francis and
Herbert Kellner I have some issues.
First, these authors seem to be absolutely convinced that the patterns
on, say, Bach's WTC cover page and Bach's signet indicate some kind of
temperament system despite the fact there is no evidence for this. It
would seem these authors are dabbling in some sort of musical "Da
Vinci Code". Just a tad short of numerology. Although the tuning
systems suggested by these authors are usable in all keys, they don't
differ significantly IMHO from those previously provided by
Werckmeister, Neidhardt, Young and others. I just find it difficult
to accept that if a particular tuning system is required/desired for a
piece(s) that the composer would "hide" it in this manner. (composer
Johann Mattheson quite clearly published a monochord ET tuning overlay
in 1722.)

The only paper I've read that delves into Bach tuning by sticking to
and actually citing portions of relevant historical documents is that
by R.A. Rasch. Of course Rasch concludes that while "Well
Temperament" should not be translated as ET, the WTC was intended for
ET (which of course puts him at odds with other modern theorists).

Weighing Rasch's view with that of, say, Owen Jorgensen, I conclude
that "Well Temperament" can refer to any 12-tone system that is
acceptably playable in all 12 keys and can refer to either an
irregular temperament or ET. Whether "acceptably" can include things
like wide Pythagorean thirds (408 cents) is a matter of personal
taste. And whether 12-key sets of pieces like the WTC were intended
for ET or not will probably never be resolved. Sincerely,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Claudio Di Veroli" <dvc@...> wrote:
>
Hi Claudio & Ham,

> Not surprising that you have issues with
such questionable
> authors like
the broadly claiming
> Lehman,
> Francis,
> Kellner and Jorgensen.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crank_(person)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crackpot_index
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html
http://www.crank.net/

> Their writings and scientific methods - or lack thereof - have been
> sharply criticised by scholarly reviewers.
/tuning/topicId_78801.html#79178

> There have been numerous - IMHO unsuccessful -
> modern attempts to relate the
> Bach WTC squiggle and signet ring with a WIDE ASSORTMENT of
> temperaments.
http://ibo.ortgies.googlepages.com/errataandcorrigendatolindleyortgies:%22bac
"Lehman is following previous musings, especially by Andreas
Sparschuh, who published the ornamental-scroll idea on September 9th,
1999 (9/9/99) as a kind of practical joke to make fun of Kellner."

> The best scholar in the discussion is undoubtedly Ibo Ortgies.
Together with my personal friend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Lindley
http://www.bfg-muenchen.de/lindl_e.htm
He agrees with me, that the decorative "squiggles" are ornamental
and may serve as source of inspiration in order to invent/create new
modern temperaments, as demonstrated in my academic lectures since 1998:
http://www.math.uni-bielefeld.de/~fspm_gk/Veranstaltungen/Vortraege/Abstracts/sparschuh1.html
Motivation:
"Rekonstruktion barocker Temperaturen insbesondere bei Bach"

> ....my recent Unequal Temperaments book includes
> a full coverage of the modern proposals for Bach's temperament and
> some practical conclusions for the modern musician.

What do you think about the 1960 initial attempts? of:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Kelletat
's
http://www.herbert.kelletat.de/Werk/Schriften_______________/Zur_musikalischen_Temperatur_-/zur_musikalischen_temperatur_-.html

http://groenewald-berlin.de/text/text_T026.html
http://groenewald-berlin.de/tabellen/TAB-026.html
and
http://groenewald-berlin.de/text/text_T046.html
http://groenewald-berlin.de/tabellen/TAB-046.html

and the later:
http://www.herbert.kelletat.de/Werk/Schriften_______________/Zur_musikalischen_Temperatur_-/zur_musikalischen_temperatur_-1.html
http://www.herbert.kelletat.de/Werk/Schriften_______________/Zur_musikalischen_Temperatur_-/zur_musikalischen_temperatur_-2.html
?

> After reading some papers by Bradley Lehman, Charles Francis and
> Herbert Kellner I have some issues.
> First, these authors seem to be absolutely convinced that the
> patterns on, say, Bach's WTC cover page and Bach's signet indicate
> some kind of
odd
> temperament system despite the fact there is
absolute
> no evidence for this.

> The only paper I've read that delves into Bach tuning by sticking to
> and actually citing portions of relevant historical documents is
> that by R.A. Rasch.
which depends mostly on Kelletat.

bye
A.S.

Finally reasonable idea. Anyway it's not important if it's so or so. When the differences between pieces are emphasized by different grade of detuning, it's possible, if not, no problem. That music itself is beautiful and contrasting enough, it's independent from tuning. Let's play it, listen to it and enjoy it. Sometimes too much paper is destroyed by unfruitful speculations.

Daniel Forro

On 10 Feb 2009, at 2:41 AM, ham_45242 wrote:
>
>
> Weighing Rasch's view with that of, say, Owen Jorgensen, I conclude
> that "Well Temperament" can refer to any 12-tone system that is
> acceptably playable in all 12 keys and can refer to either an
> irregular temperament or ET. Whether "acceptably" can include things
> like wide Pythagorean thirds (408 cents) is a matter of personal
> taste. And whether 12-key sets of pieces like the WTC were intended
> for ET or not will probably never be resolved. Sincerely,
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:

> When the differences between pieces are emphasized by different grade
> of detuning, it's possible, if not, no problem. That music itself is
> beautiful and contrasting enough, it's independent from tuning.

but depends on

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonartencharakter
http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonalkaraktero
unfortunately by mischance
there isn't yet any English wiki-entry for that topic.

Quest:
Which native English speaker is able close that gap?

> Sometimes too much
laymanish
> paper is destroyed by unfruitful speculations.

Ham wrote:
> > like wide Pythagorean thirds (408 cents) is a matter of personal
> > And whether 12-key sets of pieces like the WTC were intended
> > for ET or not will probably never be resolved.
Very probably never.

bye
A.S.

by the way: an essay is now online

http://occambach.jottit.com/

I was so annoyed by the nonsense of an article in 2006 that I wrote
this, but never found it important enough to publish yet...
~~~T~~~

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> Finally reasonable idea. Anyway it's not important if it's so or so.
> When the differences between pieces are emphasized by different grade
> of detuning, it's possible, if not, no problem. That music itself is
> beautiful and contrasting enough, it's independent from tuning. Let's
> play it, listen to it and enjoy it. Sometimes too much paper is
> destroyed by unfruitful speculations.
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
> On 10 Feb 2009, at 2:41 AM, ham_45242 wrote:
> >
> >
> > Weighing Rasch's view with that of, say, Owen Jorgensen, I conclude
> > that "Well Temperament" can refer to any 12-tone system that is
> > acceptably playable in all 12 keys and can refer to either an
> > irregular temperament or ET. Whether "acceptably" can include things
> > like wide Pythagorean thirds (408 cents) is a matter of personal
> > taste. And whether 12-key sets of pieces like the WTC were intended
> > for ET or not will probably never be resolved. Sincerely,
> >

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@...> wrote:
>
>
> by the way: an essay is now online
>
> http://occambach.jottit.com/

Yaay Jottit!!!

-Carl

Kein Problem, ich verstehe Deutsch sowie Esperanto ohne grössere
Probleme.

Daniel Forro

On 11 Feb 2009, at 5:54 AM, Andreas Sparschuh wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> > When the differences between pieces are emphasized by different
> grade
> > of detuning, it's possible, if not, no problem. That music itself is
> > beautiful and contrasting enough, it's independent from tuning.
>
> but depends on
>
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonartencharakter
> http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonalkaraktero
> unfortunately by mischance
> there isn't yet any English wiki-entry for that topic.
>
> Quest:
> Which native English speaker is able close that gap?
>
> > Sometimes too much
> laymanish
> > paper is destroyed by unfruitful speculations.
>
> Ham wrote:
> > > like wide Pythagorean thirds (408 cents) is a matter of personal
> > > And whether 12-key sets of pieces like the WTC were intended
> > > for ET or not will probably never be resolved.
> Very probably never.
>
> bye
> A.S.
>

That article confirmed what I have written. In other words: If some kind of unequal temperament is used, every key has different relations (= chord detuning) and therefore character is different, which can help to increase contrast between pieces (when all of them are played in sequence).

If 12ET is used, there is no difference between different keys, but never mind, beauty of music itself can't be destroyed by it. Impact of that music doesn't depend on tuning (unequal or equal temperament).

So I agree with both camps, using of unequal tuning or ET. Both is possible. Problem solved.

Daniel Forro

On 11 Feb 2009, at 5:54 AM, Andreas Sparschuh wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> > When the differences between pieces are emphasized by different > grade
> > of detuning, it's possible, if not, no problem. That music itself is
> > beautiful and contrasting enough, it's independent from tuning.
>
> but depends on
>
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonartencharakter
> http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonalkaraktero
> unfortunately by mischance
> there isn't yet any English wiki-entry for that topic.
>
> Quest:
> Which native English speaker is able close that gap?
>
> > Sometimes too much
> laymanish
> > paper is destroyed by unfruitful speculations.
>
> Ham wrote:
> > > like wide Pythagorean thirds (408 cents) is a matter of personal
> > > And whether 12-key sets of pieces like the WTC were intended
> > > for ET or not will probably never be resolved.
> Very probably never.
>
> bye
> A.S.
>