Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning A new(?) alternative to keemun

Hi there,

if I'm correct, the "keemun" temperament is the one whose 5-limit part tempers the same kleisma as hanson does and the "2,3,7-limit part" tempers out 49/48, which eventually leads to tempering out 875/864 in the full 7-limit space. Interestingly enough, a very similar temperament can come out if we decide to temper out the difference between a perfect fourth plus two octaves on one side and 9 minor thirds on the other side (i.e. 1953125/1889568, or exponents of "-5 -10 9"). Although this interval is about 57 cents large, it can be very effectively distributed among many generators, giving a "mistuning" of about 6 cents for the generator (the slightly wider minor third) and only about 3 cents for the 3/1 and 5/1 approximations, i.e., in the case of pure octaves. If we preserve the keemun 7-limit mapping, then the 7-limit comma tempered out is still the same 875/864 (a "semi-diminished seventh" of 7/4 minus three minor thirds of 6/5) and the 2,3,7-limit part tempers out the "slendric" 1029/1024 (i.e. a pure fifth of 3/2 minus three "semi-augmented" seconds of 8/7). Obviously, there's the question how good (for actual music) a temperament like this is if you have to layer as many as 9 generators to approximate an ordinary "fourth", but this is another story. -- I'm planning to play around with it in near future, so I'll see what sort of music I'll be able to get out of it. -- Okay, let's say ... "non-keemun"? :-D Oh, well, that word still sounds too weird to me. -- And it somehow reminds me of the 7-limit 875/864; but my main aim was to temper out the 5-limit comma, so I wonder how much this actually has to do with keemun in the first place.

Petr

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@...>

I don't know about the values having been used before, but the term
Golden has been used by some tunaniks to mean the Kornerup meantone
tuning which uses phi as the ratio between the Large and small interval.

"Golden" being from "Golden Ratio", see:

http://www.lucytune.com/tuning/mean_tone.html

On 3 Feb 2009, at 22:02, Petr Pařízek wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> if I'm correct, the "keemun" temperament is the one whose 5-limit part
> tempers the same kleisma as hanson does and the "2,3,7-limit part"
> tempers
> out 49/48, which eventually leads to tempering out 875/864 in the full
> 7-limit space. Interestingly enough, a very similar temperament can
> come out
> if we decide to temper out the difference between a perfect fourth
> plus two
> octaves on one side and 9 minor thirds on the other side (i.e.
> 1953125/1889568, or exponents of "-5 -10 9"). Although this interval
> is
> about 57 cents large, it can be very effectively distributed among
> many
> generators, giving a "mistuning" of about 6 cents for the generator
> (the
> slightly wider minor third) and only about 3 cents for the 3/1 and 5/1
> approximations, i.e., in the case of pure octaves. If we preserve
> the keemun
> 7-limit mapping, then the 7-limit comma tempered out is still the same
> 875/864 (a "semi-diminished seventh" of 7/4 minus three minor thirds
> of 6/5)
> and the 2,3,7-limit part tempers out the "slendric" 1029/1024 (i.e.
> a pure
> fifth of 3/2 minus three "semi-augmented" seconds of 8/7). Obviously,
> there's the question how good (for actual music) a temperament like
> this is
> if you have to layer as many as 9 generators to approximate an
> ordinary
> "fourth", but this is another story. -- I'm planning to play around
> with it
> in near future, so I'll see what sort of music I'll be able to get
> out of
> it. -- Okay, let's say ... "non-keemun"? :-D Oh, well, that word still
> sounds too weird to me. -- And it somehow reminds me of the 7-limit
> 875/864;
> but my main aim was to temper out the 5-limit comma, so I wonder how
> much
> this actually has to do with keemun in the first place.
>
> Petr
>
>
>

Charles Lucy
lucy@...

- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -

for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com

For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@...>

Petr Pařízek wrote:
> Hi there,
> > if I'm correct, the "keemun" temperament is the one whose 5-limit part > tempers the same kleisma as hanson does and the "2,3,7-limit part" tempers > out 49/48, which eventually leads to tempering out 875/864 in the full > 7-limit space. Interestingly enough, a very similar temperament can come out > if we decide to temper out the difference between a perfect fourth plus two > octaves on one side and 9 minor thirds on the other side (i.e. > 1953125/1889568, or exponents of "-5 -10 9"). Although this interval is > about 57 cents large, it can be very effectively distributed among many > generators, giving a "mistuning" of about 6 cents for the generator (the > slightly wider minor third) and only about 3 cents for the 3/1 and 5/1 > approximations, i.e., in the case of pure octaves. If we preserve the keemun > 7-limit mapping, then the 7-limit comma tempered out is still the same > 875/864 (a "semi-diminished seventh" of 7/4 minus three minor thirds of 6/5) > and the 2,3,7-limit part tempers out the "slendric" 1029/1024 (i.e. a pure > fifth of 3/2 minus three "semi-augmented" seconds of 8/7). Obviously, > there's the question how good (for actual music) a temperament like this is > if you have to layer as many as 9 generators to approximate an ordinary > "fourth", but this is another story. -- I'm planning to play around with it > in near future, so I'll see what sort of music I'll be able to get out of > it. -- Okay, let's say ... "non-keemun"? :-D Oh, well, that word still > sounds too weird to me. -- And it somehow reminds me of the 7-limit 875/864; > but my main aim was to temper out the 5-limit comma, so I wonder how much > this actually has to do with keemun in the first place.
> > Petr

I looked for 1953125/1889568 and found it in a list of comma sequences ("More comma sequence thoughts", Gene Ward Smith on the tuning-math list, 3/4/2005).

[9, 10, -3, 2, -5, -30, -28, -35, -30, 16]
[1953125/1889568, 875/864, 100/99]
rms: 5.302952 comp: 11.119481

This is an 11-limit version of "superkleismic"
[<1, 4, 5, 2], <0, -9, -10, 3]]
TOP generators [1201.371918, 322.3731369]

Like keemun, it has MOS scales of 7, 11, and 15 notes, but it skips 19 and instead has a 26-note MOS scale.

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Charles,

I tried one of your tunings tonight - I have a question -

Then by the nature of your re-tuning only "close" keys are really viable?

I used the 0 flat 5 sharp tuning - great for white key music - but
chromaticism quickly seemed to be iffy.

Thanks,

Chris

On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:

> I don't know about the values having been used before, but the term
> Golden has been used by some tunaniks to mean the Kornerup meantone tuning
> which uses phi as the ratio between the Large and small interval.
>
> "Golden" being from "Golden Ratio", see:
>
> http://www.lucytune.com/tuning/mean_tone.html
>
>
> On 3 Feb 2009, at 22:02, Petr Pařízek wrote:
>
> Hi there,
>
> if I'm correct, the "keemun" temperament is the one whose 5-limit part
> tempers the same kleisma as hanson does and the "2,3,7-limit part" tempers
>
> out 49/48, which eventually leads to tempering out 875/864 in the full
> 7-limit space. Interestingly enough, a very similar temperament can come
> out
> if we decide to temper out the difference between a perfect fourth plus two
>
> octaves on one side and 9 minor thirds on the other side (i.e.
> 1953125/1889568, or exponents of "-5 -10 9"). Although this interval is
> about 57 cents large, it can be very effectively distributed among many
> generators, giving a "mistuning" of about 6 cents for the generator (the
> slightly wider minor third) and only about 3 cents for the 3/1 and 5/1
> approximations, i.e., in the case of pure octaves. If we preserve the
> keemun
> 7-limit mapping, then the 7-limit comma tempered out is still the same
> 875/864 (a "semi-diminished seventh" of 7/4 minus three minor thirds of
> 6/5)
> and the 2,3,7-limit part tempers out the "slendric" 1029/1024 (i.e. a pure
>
> fifth of 3/2 minus three "semi-augmented" seconds of 8/7). Obviously,
> there's the question how good (for actual music) a temperament like this is
>
> if you have to layer as many as 9 generators to approximate an ordinary
> "fourth", but this is another story. -- I'm planning to play around with it
>
> in near future, so I'll see what sort of music I'll be able to get out of
> it. -- Okay, let's say ... "non-keemun"? :-D Oh, well, that word still
> sounds too weird to me. -- And it somehow reminds me of the 7-limit
> 875/864;
> but my main aim was to temper out the 5-limit comma, so I wonder how much
> this actually has to do with keemun in the first place.
>
> Petr
>
>
> Charles Lucy
> lucy@...
>
> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>
> for information on LucyTuning go to:
> http://www.lucytune.com
>
> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
>
>
>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@...>

Hi Chris;

If you are using 0b5s, and setting A to 440Hz., all your black keys
will be the obvious sharps. i.e. C#, D#, F#, G#, A#

As you say it is limited.

That is a limitation of the assignment of only twelve notes per octave
as used in Logic and many other applications.

If you wish to experiment with more exotic assignments there are
another 50 or so at:

http://www.lucytune.com/midi_and_keyboard/pitch_bend.html

You could also generate more notes per octave by bouncing midi
sequences to audio, and changing the tuning for "other" midi tunings.

Chromaticism is a particular pattern from 12edo, which exhibits
12edo's inherent tonal ambiguity.

Using LucyTuning to play triads it becomes immediately audible which
of the "black" notes is being heard.

So using 0b5s, the Major triads of only A, B, C, D, E, F, F#, G,
will sound consonant, because notes required for other triads will be
tuned differently

e.g. if you attempt to use that assignment to play say C# Major (C-E#-
G#) you will hear that the note you would use for the E# is currently
tuned to F natural.

So if you wish to play C# Major you would need to use one of the other
tunings which contain all the notes you require; e.g. 0b6s which would
sound F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#.

Check out the readme.txt which can be downloaded with the tunings from:

http://www.lucytune.com/midi_and_keyboard/pitch_bend.html

Have fun!

On 4 Feb 2009, at 05:04, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

> Charles,
>
> I tried one of your tunings tonight - I have a question -
>
> Then by the nature of your re-tuning only "close" keys are really
> viable?
>
> I used the 0 flat 5 sharp tuning - great for white key music - but
> chromaticism quickly seemed to be iffy.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Charles Lucy <lucy@...>
> wrote:
> I don't know about the values having been used before, but the term
> Golden has been used by some tunaniks to mean the Kornerup meantone
> tuning which uses phi as the ratio between the Large and small
> interval.
>
>
> "Golden" being from "Golden Ratio", see:
>
> http://www.lucytune.com/tuning/mean_tone.html
>
>
> On 3 Feb 2009, at 22:02, Petr Pařízek wrote:
>
>> Hi there,
>>
>> if I'm correct, the "keemun" temperament is the one whose 5-limit
>> part
>> tempers the same kleisma as hanson does and the "2,3,7-limit part"
>> tempers
>> out 49/48, which eventually leads to tempering out 875/864 in the >> full
>> 7-limit space. Interestingly enough, a very similar temperament can
>> come out
>> if we decide to temper out the difference between a perfect fourth
>> plus two
>> octaves on one side and 9 minor thirds on the other side (i.e.
>> 1953125/1889568, or exponents of "-5 -10 9"). Although this
>> interval is
>> about 57 cents large, it can be very effectively distributed among
>> many
>> generators, giving a "mistuning" of about 6 cents for the generator
>> (the
>> slightly wider minor third) and only about 3 cents for the 3/1 and
>> 5/1
>> approximations, i.e., in the case of pure octaves. If we preserve
>> the keemun
>> 7-limit mapping, then the 7-limit comma tempered out is still the
>> same
>> 875/864 (a "semi-diminished seventh" of 7/4 minus three minor
>> thirds of 6/5)
>> and the 2,3,7-limit part tempers out the "slendric" 1029/1024 (i.e.
>> a pure
>> fifth of 3/2 minus three "semi-augmented" seconds of 8/7). Obviously,
>> there's the question how good (for actual music) a temperament like
>> this is
>> if you have to layer as many as 9 generators to approximate an
>> ordinary
>> "fourth", but this is another story. -- I'm planning to play around
>> with it
>> in near future, so I'll see what sort of music I'll be able to get
>> out of
>> it. -- Okay, let's say ... "non-keemun"? :-D Oh, well, that word
>> still
>> sounds too weird to me. -- And it somehow reminds me of the 7-limit
>> 875/864;
>> but my main aim was to temper out the 5-limit comma, so I wonder
>> how much
>> this actually has to do with keemun in the first place.
>>
>> Petr
>>
>>
>
> Charles Lucy
> lucy@lucytune.com
>
> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>
> for information on LucyTuning go to:
> http://www.lucytune.com
>
> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>
>

Charles Lucy
lucy@lucytune.com

- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -

for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com

For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

I should add that playing this sonority
C, G, E (an open C major) was most amazing in the Lucy tuning I used. The
third fit in as though it was another 5th!!

I need to try your tuning on a guitar with my daughter - she seems to have
good ears and immediately was upset at a guitar being tuned in 12-TET as
opposed to perfect 4ths / 3rd - the G sounded "funny" to her when tuned to
12-TET.

(I did find your page for that.)

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 3:54 AM, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:

> Hi Chris;
>
> If you are using 0b5s, and setting A to 440Hz., all your black keys will be
> the obvious sharps. i.e. C#, D#, F#, G#, A#
>
> As you say it is limited.
>
> That is a limitation of the assignment of only twelve notes per octave as
> used in Logic and many other applications.
>
> If you wish to experiment with more exotic assignments there are another 50
> or so at:
>
> http://www.lucytune.com/midi_and_keyboard/pitch_bend.html
>
> You could also generate more notes per octave by bouncing midi sequences to
> audio, and changing the tuning for "other" midi tunings.
>
> Chromaticism is a particular pattern from 12edo, which exhibits 12edo's
> inherent tonal ambiguity.
>
> Using LucyTuning to play triads it becomes immediately audible which of the
> "black" notes is being heard.
>
> So using 0b5s, the Major triads of only A, B, C, D, E, F, F#, G, will
> sound consonant, because notes required for other triads will be tuned
> differently
>
> e.g. if you attempt to use that assignment to play say C# Major (C-E#-G#)
> you will hear that the note you would use for the E# is currently tuned to F
> natural.
>
> So if you wish to play C# Major you would need to use one of the other
> tunings which contain all the notes you require; e.g. 0b6s which would sound
> F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#.
>
> Check out the readme.txt which can be downloaded with the tunings from:
>
> http://www.lucytune.com/midi_and_keyboard/pitch_bend.html
>
> Have fun!
>
>
>
> On 4 Feb 2009, at 05:04, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
>
> Charles,
>
> I tried one of your tunings tonight - I have a question -
>
> Then by the nature of your re-tuning only "close" keys are really viable?
>
> I used the 0 flat 5 sharp tuning - great for white key music - but
> chromaticism quickly seemed to be iffy.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
>
>> I don't know about the values having been used before, but the term Golden
>> has been used by some tunaniks to mean the Kornerup meantone tuning which
>> uses phi as the ratio between the Large and small interval.
>>
>> "Golden" being from "Golden Ratio", see:
>>
>> http://www.lucytune.com/tuning/mean_tone.html
>>
>>
>> On 3 Feb 2009, at 22:02, Petr Pařízek wrote:
>>
>> Hi there,
>>
>> if I'm correct, the "keemun" temperament is the one whose 5-limit part
>> tempers the same kleisma as hanson does and the "2,3,7-limit part" tempers
>>
>> out 49/48, which eventually leads to tempering out 875/864 in the full
>> 7-limit space. Interestingly enough, a very similar temperament can come
>> out
>> if we decide to temper out the difference between a perfect fourth plus
>> two
>> octaves on one side and 9 minor thirds on the other side (i.e.
>> 1953125/1889568, or exponents of "-5 -10 9"). Although this interval is
>> about 57 cents large, it can be very effectively distributed among many
>> generators, giving a "mistuning" of about 6 cents for the generator (the
>> slightly wider minor third) and only about 3 cents for the 3/1 and 5/1
>> approximations, i.e., in the case of pure octaves. If we preserve the
>> keemun
>> 7-limit mapping, then the 7-limit comma tempered out is still the same
>> 875/864 (a "semi-diminished seventh" of 7/4 minus three minor thirds of
>> 6/5)
>> and the 2,3,7-limit part tempers out the "slendric" 1029/1024 (i.e. a pure
>>
>> fifth of 3/2 minus three "semi-augmented" seconds of 8/7). Obviously,
>> there's the question how good (for actual music) a temperament like this
>> is
>> if you have to layer as many as 9 generators to approximate an ordinary
>> "fourth", but this is another story. -- I'm planning to play around with
>> it
>> in near future, so I'll see what sort of music I'll be able to get out of
>>
>> it. -- Okay, let's say ... "non-keemun"? :-D Oh, well, that word still
>> sounds too weird to me. -- And it somehow reminds me of the 7-limit
>> 875/864;
>> but my main aim was to temper out the 5-limit comma, so I wonder how much
>>
>> this actually has to do with keemun in the first place.
>>
>> Petr
>>
>>
>> Charles Lucy
>> lucy@...
>>
>> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>>
>> for information on LucyTuning go to:
>> http://www.lucytune.com
>>
>> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
>> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Charles Lucy
> lucy@...
>
> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>
> for information on LucyTuning go to:
> http://www.lucytune.com
>
> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
>
>
>

🔗Tom Dent <stringph@...>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@...>

I don't understand Tom's observations and comment:

"you will get flats on some strings but sharps on others, etc"

so to set the record straight; here's the page which explains how to tune them, and where to position the frets:

http://www.lucytune.com/guitars_and_frets/frets.html

On 4 Feb 2009, at 20:16, Tom Dent wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I need to try your tuning on a guitar with my daughter - she seems
> to have
> > good ears and immediately was upset at a guitar being tuned in 12-> TET as
> > opposed to perfect 4ths / 3rd - the G sounded "funny" to her when
> tuned to
> > 12-TET.
> >
>
> Well, how do you normally tune a guitar? "Perfect 4ths / 3rd" will
> leave you with a flat octave.
>
> Re. Lucy etc. - it's all very well to retune the open strings to
> whatever meantone, but the frets should then also be changed, and then
> you will get flats on some strings but sharps on others, etc. - in
> other words it's a whole new way of using the instrument.
> ~~~T~~~
>
>
>
Charles Lucy
lucy@...

- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -

for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com

For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Hi Charles,

If I load up Lucy tuning in my synth and then tune the appropriate guitar
strings to the synth will that work as well ?

At this point I need to forgo the changing of the frets though the magnetic
fretboard is a grand idea.

In response to Tom - I don't seem to have a problem when I tune perfect 4ths
+ the 3rd. It is something my classical guitar teacher showed me. And I tend
to play a lot of "parallel interval" music ala Jimmy Page in Dancing Days
etc. so I certainly have octaves and 9th and 12ths and quintal harmonies -
all these are really important to me to sound clean. For whatever reason it
works for me.

Thanks,

Chris

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:

> I don't understand Tom's observations and comment:
>
> "you will get flats on some strings but sharps on others, etc"
>
> so to set the record straight; here's the page which explains how to tune
> them, and where to position the frets:
>
> http://www.lucytune.com/guitars_and_frets/frets.html
>
>
>
> On 4 Feb 2009, at 20:16, Tom Dent wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Vaisvil
> <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I need to try your tuning on a guitar with my daughter - she seems
> to have
> > good ears and immediately was upset at a guitar being tuned in 12-TET as
> > opposed to perfect 4ths / 3rd - the G sounded "funny" to her when
> tuned to
> > 12-TET.
> >
>
> Well, how do you normally tune a guitar? "Perfect 4ths / 3rd" will
> leave you with a flat octave.
>
> Re. Lucy etc. - it's all very well to retune the open strings to
> whatever meantone, but the frets should then also be changed, and then
> you will get flats on some strings but sharps on others, etc. - in
> other words it's a whole new way of using the instrument.
> ~~~T~~~
>
>
> Charles Lucy
> lucy@...
>
> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>
> for information on LucyTuning go to:
> http://www.lucytune.com
>
> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@...>

On 4 Feb 2009, at 23:39, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

HI Chris;
> >Hi Charles,
>
> >If I load up Lucy tuning in my synth and then tune the appropriate > guitar strings >to the synth will that work as well ?
>

Yes, that should work fine provided that you load the correct tuning tables, although to be able to play any frets other than the open string or the octave, you will need to move the frets on the guitar.

I don't know what synth you are using, but the easiest way is to run your synth into a DAW e.g. Logic or Cubase, and do the microtuning with your computer, by sending the midi data from your keyboard

If you wish to use the internal tuning sysex for the synth, the only set that I have made was in YAMS, which are fairly low resolution, although you could make your own using LMSO or Microtuner for your specific hardware.

There are some also Scala LucyTunings in the collection that Manuel has posted, but I cannot vouch for their authenticity as to make the pitches match exactly you need to set A to 220/440/880 Hz etc.

So to be sure that you have got the right tunings, you will need to download the LucyTuning tables from:

http://www.lucytune.com/midi_and_keyboard/pitch_bend.html

>
> >At this point I need to forgo the changing of the frets though the > magnetic >fretboard is a grand idea.
>

> Yes, you should be able to get one from Mark Rankin.
>
> Although the LucyTuned guitars work fine, microtuning any guitar > will require moving frets, which can be a time-consuming or > expensive operation.
>

>
> In response to Tom - I don't seem to have a problem when I tune > perfect 4ths + the 3rd. It is something my classical guitar teacher > showed me. And I tend to play a lot of "parallel interval" music ala > Jimmy Page in Dancing Days etc. so I certainly have octaves and 9th > and 12ths and quintal harmonies - all these are really important to > me to sound clean. For whatever reason it works for me.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> > wrote:
> I don't understand Tom's observations and comment:
>
>
> "you will get flats on some strings but sharps on others, etc"
>
> so to set the record straight; here's the page which explains how to > tune them, and where to position the frets:
>
> http://www.lucytune.com/guitars_and_frets/frets.html
>
>
>
> On 4 Feb 2009, at 20:16, Tom Dent wrote:
>
>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> >> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > I need to try your tuning on a guitar with my daughter - she seems
>> to have
>> > good ears and immediately was upset at a guitar being tuned in 12->> TET as
>> > opposed to perfect 4ths / 3rd - the G sounded "funny" to her when
>> tuned to
>> > 12-TET.
>> >
>>
>> Well, how do you normally tune a guitar? "Perfect 4ths / 3rd" will
>> leave you with a flat octave.
>>
>> Re. Lucy etc. - it's all very well to retune the open strings to
>> whatever meantone, but the frets should then also be changed, and >> then
>> you will get flats on some strings but sharps on others, etc. - in
>> other words it's a whole new way of using the instrument.
>> ~~~T~~~
>>
>>
>
> Charles Lucy
> lucy@...
>
> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>
> for information on LucyTuning go to:
> http://www.lucytune.com
>
> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>
>
Charles Lucy
lucy@...

- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -

for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com

For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Tom Dent <stringph@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
>
> I don't understand Tom's observations and comment:
>
> "you will get flats on some strings but sharps on others, etc"
>
> so to set the record straight; here's the page which explains how to
> tune them, and where to position the frets:
>
> http://www.lucytune.com/guitars_and_frets/frets.html

Well OBVIOUSLY if you have more than 12 frets per octave you can get
both flats and sharps as merrily as you want. Chris was actually (so
far as I could tell) talking about retuning the strings of a normal
12ET-fretted guitar to Lucy-meantone. Try and consider the context.
(Consider also that I know what meantone is and know quite a lot about
the history of its possible use on fretted instruments.)

Even if you have movable frets, if there are only 12 (straight) frets
per octave then no matter how you move them you can't get both F on
the E-string and G# on the G-string. That doesn't mean the instrument
becomes useless, but it does require a change in playing habits.
~~~T~~~

> On 4 Feb 2009, at 20:16, Tom Dent wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I need to try your tuning on a guitar with my daughter - she seems
> > to have
> > > good ears and immediately was upset at a guitar being tuned in 12-
> > TET as
> > > opposed to perfect 4ths / 3rd - the G sounded "funny" to her when
> > tuned to
> > > 12-TET.
> > >
> >
> > Well, how do you normally tune a guitar? "Perfect 4ths / 3rd" will
> > leave you with a flat octave.
> >
> > Re. Lucy etc. - it's all very well to retune the open strings to
> > whatever meantone, but the frets should then also be changed, and then
> > you will get flats on some strings but sharps on others, etc. - in
> > other words it's a whole new way of using the instrument.
> > ~~~T~~~
> >
> >

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@...>

OK Tom;

Got it!

On 5 Feb 2009, at 11:59, Tom Dent wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
> >
> > I don't understand Tom's observations and comment:
> >
> > "you will get flats on some strings but sharps on others, etc"
> >
> > so to set the record straight; here's the page which explains how to
> > tune them, and where to position the frets:
> >
> > http://www.lucytune.com/guitars_and_frets/frets.html
>
> Well OBVIOUSLY if you have more than 12 frets per octave you can get
> both flats and sharps as merrily as you want. Chris was actually (so
> far as I could tell) talking about retuning the strings of a normal
> 12ET-fretted guitar to Lucy-meantone. Try and consider the context.
> (Consider also that I know what meantone is and know quite a lot about
> the history of its possible use on fretted instruments.)
>
> Even if you have movable frets, if there are only 12 (straight) frets
> per octave then no matter how you move them you can't get both F on
> the E-string and G# on the G-string. That doesn't mean the instrument
> becomes useless, but it does require a change in playing habits.
> ~~~T~~~
>
> > On 4 Feb 2009, at 20:16, Tom Dent wrote:
> >
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I need to try your tuning on a guitar with my daughter - she > seems
> > > to have
> > > > good ears and immediately was upset at a guitar being tuned in > 12-
> > > TET as
> > > > opposed to perfect 4ths / 3rd - the G sounded "funny" to her > when
> > > tuned to
> > > > 12-TET.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well, how do you normally tune a guitar? "Perfect 4ths / 3rd" will
> > > leave you with a flat octave.
> > >
> > > Re. Lucy etc. - it's all very well to retune the open strings to
> > > whatever meantone, but the frets should then also be changed, > and then
> > > you will get flats on some strings but sharps on others, etc. - in
> > > other words it's a whole new way of using the instrument.
> > > ~~~T~~~
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
Charles Lucy
lucy@...

- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -

for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com

For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

A new(?) alternative to keemun

🔗Petr Pařízek <p.parizek@...>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@...>

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Tom Dent <stringph@...>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Tom Dent <stringph@...>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@...>