Re: High third, locking in, busy list...

I haven't downloaded Monz's files (kudos for doing that) but
have done my own investigations at home on the topic.

Its a little difficult for me, since I don't know what the
'high third lock' is supposed to be, but am just hoping I'll
recognize it if it bites me on the...

So far, I can't say I've found anything. I don't object to
81/64, nor do I object to "prime number fuzzy thinking" as
a justification for it.

Since I was particularly struck by the fact that the high
third could lock in a dominant seventh chord, that is where I
looked.

I did not find the 1/1 : 14/11 : 3/2 : 7/4 particularly
compelling, the 11:8 between the third and the seventh is
quite abrasive. ON THE OTHER HAND, if this chord were resolving
in a normal manner then that rather bruised tritone will be
closing to a third on the tonic. [I have nothing against 11:8
as an entity, I just don't think it has a lot of relationship
to 'traditional Western European harmonic practice'].

Most of the high thirds seemed to want high sevenths. Giving
them high sevenths improved their consonance, but gave them a
'climbing' sensation (exe 1/1 : 24/19 : 3/2 : 9/5). Since
my baseline was 4 : 5 : 6 : 7, which sounds good all night
long, this sensation was noticeable and not so pleasant.

I'll plug in 1/1 : 19/15 : 3/2 : 16/9 tonight, which is between
the two examples I tried in terms of "high third" and
"low seventh".

I'll rediscover 12tet if it kills me!

Bob Valentine

Bob, for what they are worth, here are a few comments on your good work.

Robert Valentine wrote:
>
> I haven't downloaded Monz's files (kudos for doing that) but
> have done my own investigations at home on the topic.
>
> Its a little difficult for me, since I don't know what the
> 'high third lock' is supposed to be, but am just hoping I'll
> recognize it if it bites me on the...

Try this. Sound a low fundamental pitch and sing (hum) a major tenth above
it (2:5) with a similar timber. Add a well-tuned fifth (2:3), preferably
acoustically (your wife? roommate? hired singer?). Allow your major third
tuning to float upward until it locks in a new place. The major triad
changes from a mellow sound to a somewhat brighter sound, but no less
"locked" (to my ear more locked) than the 4:5 third in this context. Let me
know if it bites you. (You needn't be explicit about WHERE it bites you.
LOL)
>
> So far, I can't say I've found anything. I don't object to
> 81/64, nor do I object to "prime number fuzzy thinking" as
> a justification for it.

Are you searching acoustically or on a synth? When I search for this same
effect on my M-1, I find nothing but frustration. My conclusion is that the
human ear can hear a "lock" that is "in the cracks" between cents, and this
perception is not available when tuning is limited to cents.

I'm working on my newbies in the college choir to understand (and execute)
the concept of "in tune," and hopefully I will be able to produce a sound
recording tomorrow or Thursday. If not, I'll have to wait 'til next week.
>
> Since I was particularly struck by the fact that the high
> third could lock in a dominant seventh chord, that is where I
> looked.

I'll try to record a dominant seventh chord, as well.
>
> I did not find the 1/1 : 14/11 : 3/2 : 7/4 particularly
> compelling, the 11:8 between the third and the seventh is
> quite abrasive. ON THE OTHER HAND, if this chord were resolving
> in a normal manner then that rather bruised tritone will be
> closing to a third on the tonic. [I have nothing against 11:8
> as an entity, I just don't think it has a lot of relationship
> to 'traditional Western European harmonic practice'].

I tend to agree. I don't think 11:8 has anything to do with the traditional
functional dominant seventh chord. But then, until we do know a bit more, we
might keep that possibility in storage.
>
> Most of the high thirds seemed to want high sevenths. Giving
> them high sevenths improved their consonance, but gave them a
> 'climbing' sensation (exe 1/1 : 24/19 : 3/2 : 9/5). Since
> my baseline was 4 : 5 : 6 : 7, which sounds good all night
> long, this sensation was noticeable and not so pleasant.

My ear likes the combination of high third and low seventh (4:7). I would
think that looking for a lock with high sevenths is going in the wrong
direction.
>
> I'll plug in 1/1 : 19/15 : 3/2 : 16/9 tonight, which is between
> the two examples I tried in terms of "high third" and
> "low seventh".
>
> I'll rediscover 12tet if it kills me!

(Large chuckle.) Don't abandon hope, Bob. To misquote a famous book, "All
things come to him who gets off his fanny and checks it out." Thanks for
your help.

Jerry

Gerald Eskelin wrote,

>Are you searching acoustically or on a synth? When I search for this same
>effect on my M-1, I find nothing but frustration. My conclusion is that the
>human ear can hear a "lock" that is "in the cracks" between cents, and this
>perception is not available when tuning is limited to cents.

This is very mysterious-sounding. Putting aside the validity of your
conclusion, can you at least find the tuning on the M-1 that is within one
cent of what you vocally sing as the high third over a root and fifth, and
tell us what that tuning is?