Question on Ozan Yarman's dissertation

Ozan, I have again a question about your dissertation. I have started
reading through chapter 5.3 (79-tone Maqam theory). There are various
maqams listed with their JI ratios and the corresponding numbers of 79-
tone degrees. Problem is: I see different numbers of degrees assigned
to the same JI ratio - e.g. 26 or 25 degrees to 5/4. What do I have
wrong this time?
--
Hans Straub

O Hans,

In 80 MOS 159-tET, sometimes 5:4 is equally far from either the 25th or the 26th step. In the case of Rast, I wanted to obtain the diatonic major scale with a cycle of fifths, but in doing so, I may have grossly misrepresented the actual perde segah, which should be the 25th degree or lower. At least I made the distinction with tempered versus the pure Rast genus, thereby distinguishing ascending and descending scales of a particular maqam using the same ratios.

Always bear in mind that certain perdes such as segah and saba are very flexible (i.e. we are talking about the probabality of finding the perde in a given cluster) and cannot be fixed to a particular degree with certainty, as you might notice in Table 5.1. Also, don't forget that there are certain JI or RI ratios that will be equally well (or badly) represented by two neighbouring degrees of 79/80 MOS 159-tET. At certain times, trying to attain symmetry in genera via intervals will result in an undesirable array of relative frequencies, or vice versa. Here, the musician must choose scales with his/her hearing.

The merits of the tuning are audible on my qanun, where the performer has many choices regarding interval selection peculiar to a maqam depending on the ear. I have observed first-hand that many qanun-players searched for the pitch that they were fond of by manipulating the mandals and that the choice of intervals varied from one musician to the next. Sometimes, they even decided on a different degree of 79 MOS 159-tET for the same ratio.

Thus, 79/80 MOS 159-tET must be taken as a grid with flexible pitch mapping where a certain ratio might coincide with two degrees.

Cordially,
Oz.

On Nov 25, 2008, at 3:33 PM, hstraub64 wrote:

> Ozan, I have again a question about your dissertation. I have started
> reading through chapter 5.3 (79-tone Maqam theory). There are various
> maqams listed with their JI ratios and the corresponding numbers of > 79-
> tone degrees. Problem is: I see different numbers of degrees assigned
> to the same JI ratio - e.g. 26 or 25 degrees to 5/4. What do I have
> wrong this time?
> --> Hans Straub

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> O Hans,
>
> In 80 MOS 159-tET, sometimes 5:4 is equally far from either the
> 25th or the 26th step. In the case of Rast, I wanted to obtain the
> diatonic major scale with a cycle of fifths, but in doing so, I may
> have grossly misrepresented the actual perde segah, which should be
> the 25th degree or lower. At least I made the distinction with
> tempered versus the pure Rast genus, thereby distinguishing
> ascending and descending scales of a particular maqam using the
> same ratios.
>
> Always bear in mind that certain perdes such as segah and saba are
> very flexible (i.e. we are talking about the probabality of
> finding the perde in a given cluster) and cannot be fixed to a
> particular degree with certainty, as you might notice in Table 5.1.
> Also, don't forget that there are certain JI or RI ratios that will
> be equally well (or badly) represented by two neighbouring degrees
> of 79/80 MOS 159-tET. At certain times, trying to attain symmetry
> in genera via intervals will result in an undesirable array of
> relative frequencies, or vice versa. Here, the musician must choose
> scales with his/her hearing.
>
> The merits of the tuning are audible on my qanun, where the
> performer has many choices regarding interval selection peculiar to
> a maqam depending on the ear. I have observed first-hand that many
> qanun-players searched for the pitch that they were fond of by
> manipulating the mandals and that the choice of intervals varied
> from one musician to the next. Sometimes, they even decided on a
> different degree of 79 MOS 159-tET for the same ratio.
>
> Thus, 79/80 MOS 159-tET must be taken as a grid with flexible
> pitch mapping where a certain ratio might coincide with two degrees.
>
> Cordially,
> Oz.
>

Thanks for the explanation!
I have to conclude it is still a little more complicated than I had
thought :-(
Looks like seyir and tavir still cannot be skipped...
--
Hans Straub

Never despair... I am still working on a solution with lighter resolutions. Certain sacrifices are deemed acceptable by my senior peers. Have you considered my least-voluminous suggestion listed in SCALA scale archive as Yarman24?

Soon to come: A 41-tone extension of AEU with many high prime limit JI intervals and tempered fifths.

Oz.

On Nov 26, 2008, at 1:16 PM, hstraub64 wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>>
>> O Hans,
>>
>> In 80 MOS 159-tET, sometimes 5:4 is equally far from either the
>> 25th or the 26th step. In the case of Rast, I wanted to obtain the
>> diatonic major scale with a cycle of fifths, but in doing so, I may
>> have grossly misrepresented the actual perde segah, which should be
>> the 25th degree or lower. At least I made the distinction with
>> tempered versus the pure Rast genus, thereby distinguishing
>> ascending and descending scales of a particular maqam using the
>> same ratios.
>>
>> Always bear in mind that certain perdes such as segah and saba are
>> very flexible (i.e. we are talking about the probabality of
>> finding the perde in a given cluster) and cannot be fixed to a
>> particular degree with certainty, as you might notice in Table 5.1.
>> Also, don't forget that there are certain JI or RI ratios that will
>> be equally well (or badly) represented by two neighbouring degrees
>> of 79/80 MOS 159-tET. At certain times, trying to attain symmetry
>> in genera via intervals will result in an undesirable array of
>> relative frequencies, or vice versa. Here, the musician must choose
>> scales with his/her hearing.
>>
>> The merits of the tuning are audible on my qanun, where the
>> performer has many choices regarding interval selection peculiar to
>> a maqam depending on the ear. I have observed first-hand that many
>> qanun-players searched for the pitch that they were fond of by
>> manipulating the mandals and that the choice of intervals varied
>> from one musician to the next. Sometimes, they even decided on a
>> different degree of 79 MOS 159-tET for the same ratio.
>>
>> Thus, 79/80 MOS 159-tET must be taken as a grid with flexible
>> pitch mapping where a certain ratio might coincide with two degrees.
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Oz.
>>
>
> Thanks for the explanation!
> I have to conclude it is still a little more complicated than I had
> thought :-(
> Looks like seyir and tavir still cannot be skipped...
> --> Hans Straub
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Never despair... I am still working on a solution with lighter
> resolutions. Certain sacrifices are deemed acceptable by my senior
> peers.

The problem I have is less the high resolution but rather the question
which notes to be played in which maqams. But since, as you write, this
apparently differs even from musician to musician, I am probably not
the only one :-)

> Have you considered my least-voluminous suggestion listed in
> SCALA scale archive as Yarman24?
>

I am still lost if I do not know which of the notes to be played in
which maqam. Maybe you can sketch how the maqams you described in
chapter 5.3 of your dissertation come out in this tuning (or in 41EDO,
or in 34EDO)?
--
Hans Straub

Dear Hans,

Eid Mubarek! Today is the first day of Eid ul-Adha, the Islamic
holyday when pilgrims from across the world visit the Holy Shrine and
Muslims everywhere offer sacrifices to glorify the name of Allah.

To help you with maqamat, why don't I direct you first to the link at
Aaron Andrew Hunt's website with a zip file of my maqam scales using
simple ratios?

http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html

After you explore these, let me once more remind Yarman24 and its
perdes (Set notation to T24 in SCALA):

1/1 RAST C
84.360 Nim Zengule C#/Db
38/35 Zengule Cᵻ/Dƀ
192.180 Dik Zengule Dd
9/8 DUGAH D
292.180 Kurdi D#/Eb
17/14 Dik Kurdi Dᵻ/Eƀ
16/13 Nerm Segah Ed
5/4 SEGAH E
19/15 Buselik E‡
4/3 CHARGAH F
584.079 Nim Hijaz F#/Gb
36/25 Hijaz/Saba Fᵻ/Gƀ
696.090 Dik Hijaz/Saba Gd
3/2 NEVA G
788.270 Nim Hisar G#/Ab
18/11 Hisar Gᵻ/Aƀ
888.270 Dik Hisar Ad
27/16 HUSEYNI A 440hz
16/9 Ajem A#/Bb
20/11 Dik Ajem Aᵻ/Bƀ
13/7 Nerm Evdj Bd
15/8 EVDJ B
21/11 Mahur B‡
2/1 GERDANIYE C

Notice how certain maqam names such as Kurdi, Segah, Buselik, Hijaz,
Neva, etc... coincide with the perde names above? That is because the
perdes in question are crucial for these maqams.

Let me try to notate famous maqam scales accoding to Yarman24 the way
I know best how...

(SCALA T24 Ed and Bd should be read as naturals. The actual Eb and Bb
in Yarman24 are one step below them.)

RAST
C D E F G A Bd c, Bb A G F Ed D C

MAHUR
C D E‡ F G A B‡ c

PENCHGAH
C D E F# G A B c

NIHAVEND
C D Eb F G Ab B c, Bb Ab G F Eb D c

BUSELIK
D E‡ F G A Bb c# d, c Bb A G F E‡ D

HIJAZ
D Eƀ F# G A Bƀ c d, C Bb A G F# Eƀ D

KURDI
D Eb F G A Bb c d, c Bb Ab G F Eb D

HUSEYNI
D E F G A B c d, c Bd A G F Ed D

USHSHAQ
D Ed F G A Bb c, Bb A G F Ed___Eƀ D

SABA
D E F Gƀ A Bb c dƀ e f, ed d c Bb A Gƀ F Ed D

KARJIGHAR
D Ed F G Aƀ Bd c d

SEGAH
E F G Ad B c d# e, eb d c Bb A G F E

HUZZAM
E F G Aƀ B c d# e, eb d c Bb A G F E

MUSTEAR
E F# G Ad B c d# e

I hope this exposition elucidates famous maqam scales according to
Yarman24.

Season's greetings,
Oz.

On Dec 2, 2008, at 11:06 AM, hstraub64 wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>>
>> Never despair... I am still working on a solution with lighter
>> resolutions. Certain sacrifices are deemed acceptable by my senior
>> peers.
>
> The problem I have is less the high resolution but rather the question
> which notes to be played in which maqams. But since, as you write,
> this
> apparently differs even from musician to musician, I am probably not
> the only one :-)
>
>> Have you considered my least-voluminous suggestion listed in
>> SCALA scale archive as Yarman24?
>>
>
> I am still lost if I do not know which of the notes to be played in
> which maqam. Maybe you can sketch how the maqams you described in
> chapter 5.3 of your dissertation come out in this tuning (or in 41EDO,
> or in 34EDO)?
> --
> Hans Straub
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> To help you with maqamat, why don't I direct you first to the link
> at Aaron Andrew Hunt's website with a zip file of my maqam scales
> using simple ratios?
>
> http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
>

Alright, I did that. Could not read the files, though. What is the
file format?

> After you explore these, let me once more remind Yarman24 and its
> perdes (Set notation to T24 in SCALA):
>

This is quite what I was looking for. Thanks for it!

> 1/1 RAST C
> 84.360 Nim Zengule C#/Db
> 38/35 Zengule Cᵻ/Dƀ
> 192.180 Dik Zengule Dd
> 9/8 DUGAH D
> 292.180 Kurdi D#/Eb
> 17/14 Dik Kurdi Dᵻ/Eƀ
> 16/13 Nerm Segah Ed
> 5/4 SEGAH E
> 19/15 Buselik E‡
> 4/3 CHARGAH F
> 584.079 Nim Hijaz F#/Gb
> 36/25 Hijaz/Saba Fᵻ/Gƀ
> 696.090 Dik Hijaz/Saba Gd
> 3/2 NEVA G
> 788.270 Nim Hisar G#/Ab
> 18/11 Hisar Gᵻ/Aƀ
> 888.270 Dik Hisar Ad
> 27/16 HUSEYNI A 440hz
> 16/9 Ajem A#/Bb
> 20/11 Dik Ajem Aᵻ/Bƀ
> 13/7 Nerm Evdj Bd
> 15/8 EVDJ B
> 21/11 Mahur B‡
> 2/1 GERDANIYE C
>
> Notice how certain maqam names such as Kurdi, Segah, Buselik,
> Hijaz, Neva, etc... coincide with the perde names above? That is
> because the perdes in question are crucial for these maqams.
>
> Let me try to notate famous maqam scales accoding to Yarman24 the
> way I know best how...
>
> (SCALA T24 Ed and Bd should be read as naturals. The actual Eb and
> Bb in Yarman24 are one step below them.)
>
> RAST
> C D E F G A Bd c, Bb A G F Ed D C
>
> MAHUR
> C D E‡ F G A B‡ c
>
> PENCHGAH
> C D E F# G A B c
>
> NIHAVEND
> C D Eb F G Ab B c, Bb Ab G F Eb D c
>
> BUSELIK
> D E‡ F G A Bb c# d, c Bb A G F E‡ D
>
> HIJAZ
> D Eƀ F# G A Bƀ c d, C Bb A G F# Eƀ D
>
> KURDI
> D Eb F G A Bb c d, c Bb Ab G F Eb D
>
> HUSEYNI
> D E F G A B c d, c Bd A G F Ed D
>
> USHSHAQ
> D Ed F G A Bb c, Bb A G F Ed___Eƀ D
>
> SABA
> D E F Gƀ A Bb c dƀ e f, ed d c Bb A Gƀ F Ed D
>
> KARJIGHAR
> D Ed F G Aƀ Bd c d
>
> SEGAH
> E F G Ad B c d# e, eb d c Bb A G F E
>
> HUZZAM
> E F G Aƀ B c d# e, eb d c Bb A G F E
>
> MUSTEAR
> E F# G Ad B c d# e
>
> I hope this exposition elucidates famous maqam scales according to
> Yarman24.
>