Microtonal tracker software?

[ Attachment content not displayed ]

Open mpt has native microtonal. Support
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Aaron Johnson" <aaron@akjmusic.com>

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:07:59
To: <makemicromusic@yahoogroups.com>; <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [tuning] Microtonal tracker software?

Hey all,

I started experimenting with a (Amiga MOD style) tracker called 'Aldrin'
last night. I think trackers are promising compositional tools, at least in
a somewhat limited electro/trance or video-game-music aesthetic domain, if
not beyond.

My question is...I think it would be a relatively easy task to implement a
microtonal tracker--instead of entering a note name and octave, one might
for instance input a JI fraction (in two fields or perhaps two bytes as a
word to index a Partch-diamond ratio) and an octave.

'Aldrin' is modelled after 'Buzztracker', which was said to have been a
legendary DOS/Windows-based application.

I think it would be exciting to see an app called 'Diamond Tracker'. What do
y'all think? Anyone know C++ enough to dig into some coding with me? Maybe
we could slowly come up with a spec? I'm imagining a GUI with a diamond that
allows one to quickly point-and-click enter some diamond ratios, and
everything else would be the same--a sequence window or tab, and a
'machine/synth' tab.

The goal: a killer app in the spirit of Abelton, etc., for
live-performance-in-a-club microtonality! Since the code for Aldrin is
already out there, and it already has great sonics, it would be a good place
to start. My main hurdle is getting up to speed on C++; I'm more a Python
guy, and always find C/C++ code harder to grok. Especially thinking aboutthe
more arcane uses of memory pointers.

Carl, this thread could also be added to the mix over at 'microtools' group
at Google Groups....

Best,
--

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

> Carl, this thread could also be added to the mix over at
> 'microtools' group at Google Groups....
>
> Best,
> --
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org

Yup, it's totally appropriate for microtools. There are
several tracker-users on MMM as well, who have reported
over the years on how they get microtonality out of them.

Fruity Loops is a DAW with a tracker-inspired interface.
My old teacher Denny Genovese showed me some pretty cool
stuff with Fruity Loops back in 2002. In the early '90s,
he'd built an ensemble of 17-limit acoustic and electronic
instruments, but it was a pain to maintain and transport
them. So he sampled them all and created a virtual
ensemble in Fruity Loops, and composed some really neat
pieces using the system. Unfortunately, last I heard
he'd given up music for economic reasons. I feel much
the same way myself, having a day job that takes most of
my time and mental bandwidth.

-Carl

Hey, can I join the microtools group if I promise to shut up and lurk and be a good lurker?

How do I join?

On Nov 10, 2008, at 3:36 PM, Carl Lumma wrote:

> > Carl, this thread could also be added to the mix over at
> > 'microtools' group at Google Groups....
> >
> > Best,
> > --
> >
> > Aaron Krister Johnson
> > http://www.akjmusic.com
> > http://www.untwelve.org
>
> Yup, it's totally appropriate for microtools. There are
> several tracker-users on MMM as well, who have reported
> over the years on how they get microtonality out of them.
>
> Fruity Loops is a DAW with a tracker-inspired interface.
> My old teacher Denny Genovese showed me some pretty cool
> stuff with Fruity Loops back in 2002. In the early '90s,
> he'd built an ensemble of 17-limit acoustic and electronic
> instruments, but it was a pain to maintain and transport
> them. So he sampled them all and created a virtual
> ensemble in Fruity Loops, and composed some really neat
> pieces using the system. Unfortunately, last I heard
> he'd given up music for economic reasons. I feel much
> the same way myself, having a day job that takes most of
> my time and mental bandwidth.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

> Hey, can I join the microtools group if I promise to shut up and
> lurk and be a good lurker?
>
> How do I join?

Just go to

http://groups.google.com/group/microtools

and click the "Apply for group membership" link
on the right.

-Carl

----Open mpt has native microtonal support

      It does...and I use it a lot...plus it is also open-source and supports VST and Direct-X plug-ins.  The scale input is very flexible: choose from inputting arbitrary values, Equal Temperament scales, or scales with arbitrary length of octaves where the intervals repeat each octave (ratio mode).  You can input any scale you can think of into MPT. 

  I see no reason why it can not be used for any genre.  The only restriction I think could be a problem is you can't adjust vibrato, tremelo, and portamento effects at the same time (see the missing feature section below) if you are composing orchestral music, for example.

There are three major features I can think of programs like Ableton have that OPENMPT doesn't
A) the ability to route output of channels to input of other channels
B) the ability to have as many effects as you want per channel (not just 2)
C) the ability to change multiple VST effect parameters in real-time (IE via midi macros without using multiple new channels just to input the parameters)

You may be better off just trying to enhance the code of OpenMPT to enable such features. 
Another great (though tricky to code) feature would be:
D) Overtone alignment: takes the output of a channel and aligns all the peaks/overtones to the desired scale.  This would enable Sethares-style tuning use IE relatively consonant 10TET...that would be impossible otherwise.
E) An adaptive tuning decision model that changes the tuning scheme when certain notes/chords are played to keep notes from falling within the critical band of each other.

    I am not great at shuffling through other people's code (especially code that huge) and understanding it...but I do know a lot about using FFT manipulation to do things like overtone alignment (I have developed a C++ program to do this, which I use frequently in my scale-creation experiments to cut past the usual whole-multiple-overtone JI limitations and enable many not JI scales to sound as consonant as JI ones).

-Michael

--- On Mon, 11/10/08, chrisvaisvil@... <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
From: chrisvaisvil@... <chrisvaisvil@...>
Subject: Re: [tuning] Microtonal tracker software?
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 12:21 PM

Open mpt has native microtonal. SupportSent via BlackBerry from T-MobileFrom: "Aaron Johnson" <aaron@akjmusic. com>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:07:59 -0600
To: <makemicromusic@ yahoogroups. com>; <tuning@yahoogroups. com>
Subject: [tuning] Microtonal tracker software?
Hey all,

I started experimenting with a (Amiga MOD style) tracker called 'Aldrin' last night. I think trackers are promising compositional tools, at least in a somewhat limited electro/trance or video-game-music aesthetic domain, if not beyond.

My question is...I think it would be a relatively easy task to implement a microtonal tracker--instead of entering a note name and octave, one might for instance input a JI fraction (in two fields or perhaps two bytes as a word to index a Partch-diamond ratio) and an octave.

'Aldrin' is modelled after 'Buzztracker', which was said to have been a legendary DOS/Windows- based application.

I think it would be exciting to see an app called 'Diamond Tracker'. What do y'all think? Anyone know C++ enough to dig into some coding with me? Maybe we could slowly come up with a spec? I'm imagining a GUI with a diamond that allows one to quickly point-and-click enter some diamond ratios, and everything else would be the same--a sequence window or tab, and a 'machine/synth' tab.

The goal: a killer app in the spirit of Abelton, etc., for live-performance- in-a-club microtonality! Since the code for Aldrin is already out there, and it already has great sonics, it would be a good place to start. My main hurdle is getting up to speed on C++;  I'm more a Python guy, and always find C/C++ code harder to grok. Especially thinking aboutthe more arcane uses of memory pointers.

Carl, this thread could also be added to the mix over at 'microtools' group at Google Groups....

Best,
--

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic .com
http://www.untwelve .org

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> ----Open mpt has native microtonal support
>
>       It does...and I use it a lot...plus it is also open-source and
supports VST and Direct-X plug-ins.  The scale input is very flexible:
choose from inputting arbitrary values, Equal Temperament scales, or
scales with arbitrary length of octaves where the intervals repeat
each octave (ratio mode).  You can input any scale you can think of
into MPT. 
>
>   I see no reason why it can not be used for any genre.  The only
restriction I think could be a problem is you can't adjust vibrato,
tremelo, and portamento effects at the same time (see the missing
feature section below) if you are composing orchestral music, for
example.

AARON: I'd have to dig deeper into researching this, but I think also
most trackers don't allow tempi to at all change. The aesthetic is
very 'robotic'--great for some styles, not for others.

> There are three major features I can think of programs like Ableton
have that OPENMPT doesn't
> A) the ability to route output of channels to input of other channels

AARON: I believe Aldrin allows this.

> B) the ability to have as many effects as you want per channel (not
just 2)

AARON: Aldrin is like a modular synth in it's patching, so there is no
limit to effects chaining except of course CPU power.

> C) the ability to change multiple VST effect parameters in real-time
(IE via midi macros without using multiple new channels just to input
the parameters)

AARON: Yeah, that's cool. My interests would be to use native tracker
interfaces anyway, to avoid the limitations of MIDI.

But I can see why that's a nice feature.

> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic .com
> http://www.untwelve .org
>

> AARON: I'd have to dig deeper into researching this,
> but I think also most trackers don't allow tempo to at all change.

That simply is not true...most trackers allow tempo change...for example
the effect T82 sets the tempo to 130bpm: and you can execute that effect at any time during a song.

> > B) the ability to have as many effects as you want per
> channel (not
> just 2)

> AARON: Aldrin is like a modular synth in it's patching,
> so there is no limit to effects chaining except of course CPU power.
I was not talking about effects chaining (which openmpt CAN do), but rather the ability to change effects parameters in real-time in one channel.

> The aesthetic is
> very 'robotic'--great for some styles, not for
> others.
I don't see that as more than a stereotype. The only thing overly technical about standard tracking interfaces I can think of is learning the hexadecimal commands.
If you know what you are doing with a tracker you can easily get 96th-note timing accuracy. If you use alternative tempo parameters in addition to this, you can get over 256th note accuracy.

>>>>The sad thing is most people just take the default drum-machine-like pattern setting (1/16th note timing) and say "1/16th notes are too robotic...therefore tracking is robotic" and don't bother to learn the advanced timing/speed settings.<<< Try speed setting 1 for 1/96th note timing.
Or if you need even more timing accuracy just double or even quadruple the tempo for up to 384th note accuracy (tempo range is 0 to 512 on many trackers).

If you need more or feel an overwhelming urge to "humanize" your tracks or lots of automated arpeggio or automated "after-touch" settings...you need to go to MIDI. But if you are willing to automate very little trackers are just as powerful in most ways.

But, for example, look at the tracker Re-Noise: countless ambient and neo-classical tracks have been composed with that. When you think about it, software such as Reason and Fruity Loops is often the same way: they like to have you make drum-machine style timing by default, but can be coaxed into doing just about anything if you know how to use them.

-Michael

******************************************************************

--- On Mon, 11/10/08, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...> wrote:

> From: Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Microtonal tracker software?
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 4:49 PM
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael Sheiman
> <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> >
> > ----Open mpt has native microtonal support
> >
> > It does...and I use it a lot...plus it is
> also open-source and
> supports VST and Direct-X plug-ins. The scale input is
> very flexible:
> choose from inputting arbitrary values, Equal Temperament
> scales, or
> scales with arbitrary length of octaves where the intervals
> repeat
> each octave (ratio mode). You can input any scale you can
> think of
> into MPT.
> >
> > I see no reason why it can not be used for any
> genre. The only
> restriction I think could be a problem is you can't
> adjust vibrato,
> tremelo, and portamento effects at the same time (see the
> missing
> feature section below) if you are composing orchestral
> music, for
> example.
>
> AARON: I'd have to dig deeper into researching this,
> but I think also
> most trackers don't allow tempi to at all change. The
> aesthetic is
> very 'robotic'--great for some styles, not for
> others.
>
>
> > There are three major features I can think of programs
> like Ableton
> have that OPENMPT doesn't
> > A) the ability to route output of channels to input of
> other channels
>
> AARON: I believe Aldrin allows this.
>
> > B) the ability to have as many effects as you want per
> channel (not
> just 2)
>
> AARON: Aldrin is like a modular synth in it's patching,
> so there is no
> limit to effects chaining except of course CPU power.
>
> > C) the ability to change multiple VST effect
> parameters in real-time
> (IE via midi macros without using multiple new channels
> just to input
> the parameters)
>
> AARON: Yeah, that's cool. My interests would be to use
> native tracker
> interfaces anyway, to avoid the limitations of MIDI.
>
> But I can see why that's a nice feature.
>
>
> > Aaron Krister Johnson
> > http://www.akjmusic .com
> > http://www.untwelve .org
> >

[ Attachment content not displayed ]

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Vaisvil" <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:

> I am curious about Aldrin - did you, or could you, post an URL?
>
> or is it google-able

They just moved here, it seems:

http://code.google.com/p/aldrin-sequencer/

-A

[ Attachment content not displayed ]