Re:Short compositional example of "impossible" concordant 7 notes-at-on

I am afraid i didn't find it dissonant without headphones. if fact it seemed more dissonant with headphones as i heard to complementary entities.
But why worry about whether they are or not. It is musically useful. It seemed to be more a shift of timbre more than anything.
--

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Linky not worky?

caleb wanna hear.

On Nov 8, 2008, at 3:48 AM, Kraig Grady wrote:

> I am afraid i didn't find it dissonant without headphones. if fact it
> seemed more dissonant with headphones as i heard to complementary > entities.
> But why worry about whether they are or not. It is musically useful. > It
> seemed to be more a shift of timbre more than anything.
> -->
> /^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>
> _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://> anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
>
>

Firstly (after all the intelligent discussion we've all had about how this "couldn't work": phew)...I am glad you find this musically useful. :-)

     This is ironic...there must be something beyond what I know about how binaural hearing works that causes this...any ideas?
    The point wasn't to be consonant only with headphones...in fact I am happy about the fluke that it works with normal speakers...both Carl and I were betting it would not before because we predicted there would be more beating (because of the two channels inadventently joining to a degree) in speaker mode. :-)

----It seemed to be more a shift of timbre more than anything.
Shift of timbre...how so?  This is also beyond me because in the example I am just using sine waves and not any harmonics (though, if I did use instruments with harmonics, they'd need some sort of timbre alignment IE the type of alignment Sethares uses to handle alternative scales).

--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
Subject: [tuning] Re:Short compositional example of "impossible" concordant 7 notes-at-on
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 12:48 AM

I am afraid i didn't find it dissonant without headphones. if fact it

seemed more dissonant with headphones as i heard to complementary entities.

But why worry about whether they are or not. It is musically useful. It

seemed to be more a shift of timbre more than anything.

--

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_

Mesotonal Music from:

_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:

North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria. com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:

Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasou th.blogspot. com/>

',',',',',', ',',',',' ,',',',', ',',',',' ,',',',', ',',',',' ,

Making the file mono illustrates the difference. I find the level of dissonance acceptable as the mono file but I think that major 2nds are consonant. (Think sus 4th in root) But the perceived timbre changes dramatically when converted. Obviously something is going on.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@yahoo.com>

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 06:17:30
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re:Short compositional example of "impossible" concordant 7 notes-at-on

Firstly (after all the intelligent discussion we've all had about how this "couldn't work": phew)...I am glad you find this musically useful. :-)

���� This is ironic...there must be something beyond what I know about how binaural hearing works that causes this...any ideas?
��� The point wasn't to be consonant only with headphones...in fact I am happy about the fluke that it works with normal speakers...both Carl and I were betting it would not before because we predicted there would be more beating (because of the two channels inadventently joining to a degree) in speaker mode. :-)

----It seemed to be more a shift of timbre more than anything.
Shift of timbre...how so?� This is also beyond me because in the example I am just using sine waves and not any harmonics (though, if I did use instruments with harmonics, they'd need some sort of timbre alignment IE the type of alignment Sethares uses to handle alternative scales).

--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com> wrote:
From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
Subject: [tuning] Re:Short compositional example of "impossible" concordant 7 notes-at-on
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 12:48 AM

I am afraid i didn't find it dissonant without headphones. if fact it

seemed more dissonant with headphones as i heard to complementary entities.

But why worry about whether they are or not. It is musically useful. It

seemed to be more a shift of timbre more than anything.

--

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_

Mesotonal Music from:

_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:

North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria. com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:

Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasou th.blogspot. com/>

',',',',',', ',',',',' ,',',',', ',',',',' ,',',',', ',',',',' ,

I'm still getting "page not found"--is it me?

On Nov 8, 2008, at 9:17 AM, Michael Sheiman wrote:

>
> Firstly (after all the intelligent discussion we've all had about > how this "couldn't work": phew)...I am glad you find this musically > useful. :-)
>
> This is ironic...there must be something beyond what I know > about how binaural hearing works that causes this...any ideas?
> The point wasn't to be consonant only with headphones...in fact > I am happy about the fluke that it works with normal speakers...both > Carl and I were betting it would not before because we predicted > there would be more beating (because of the two channels > inadventently joining to a degree) in speaker mode. :-)
>
> ----It seemed to be more a shift of timbre more than anything.
> Shift of timbre...how so? This is also beyond me because in the > example I am just using sine waves and not any harmonics (though, if > I did use instruments with harmonics, they'd need some sort of > timbre alignment IE the type of alignment Sethares uses to handle > alternative scales).
>
> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
> Subject: [tuning] Re:Short compositional example of "impossible" > concordant 7 notes-at-on
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 12:48 AM
>
> I am afraid i didn't find it dissonant without headphones. if fact it
> seemed more dissonant with headphones as i heard to complementary > entities.
> But why worry about whether they are or not. It is musically useful. > It
> seemed to be more a shift of timbre more than anything.
> -->
> /^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria. com/>
>
> _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasou th.blogspot. com/> >
>
> ',',',',',', ',',',',' ,',',',', ',',',',' ,',',',', ',',',',' ,
>
>
>
>

Michael wrote:
> Firstly (after all the intelligent discussion we've all had
> about how this "couldn't work": phew)...I am glad you find this
> musically useful. :-)
>      This is ironic...there must be something beyond what I
> know about how binaural hearing works that causes this...any
> ideas?
>     The point wasn't to be consonant only with headphones...in
> fact I am happy about the fluke that it works with normal
> speakers...both Carl and I were betting it would not before
> because we predicted there would be more beating (because of
> the two channels inadventently joining to a degree) in
> speaker mode. :-)

So my reaction is, it sounds good but not particularly
consonant. I listened through headphones and speakers
and didn't hear a large difference in consonance.
It sounds like this is Kraig's experience as well.
Are you saying above, Michael, that you also find that
headphones don't make a big difference?

To really test it, you should post a mono version also.

But I think it's clear that I'm still waiting to hear an
example where stereo split can significantly reduce dissonance
in a chord.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, chrisvaisvil@... wrote:
>
> Making the file mono illustrates the difference.

Which mono file? Did I miss it? -C.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, caleb morgan <calebmrgn@...> wrote:
>
> I'm still getting "page not found"--is it me?

It's you. You need to copy and paste the link together in
a text editor.

-Carl

Or, not: When djtrancendance reposted his link, it worked. sounded good, also. didn't matter whether summed to mono or not.

On Nov 8, 2008, at 1:28 PM, Carl Lumma wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, caleb morgan <calebmrgn@...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm still getting "page not found"--is it me?
>
> It's you. You need to copy and paste the link together in
> a text editor.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

---Are you saying above, Michael, that you also find that
---headphones don't make a big difference?
Ironically, yes.
    Due to your explanation and my own reasoning's both saying "it must beat in speaker mode because the separation is no longer absolute thus re-presenting the danger of beating" I had before guessed it couldn't be done.
 
    But, once I tried it on my own stereo (non-headphones) I could not believe my ears: it still sounded quite good.
 
    My guess is there is some bizarre pattern in how the phasing works when remixed to mono which causes the phases to "zero out" the sound when beating should otherwise start.  Otherwise...I have no clue how I am "getting away with this" in mono.
 
---To really test it, you should post a mono version also.
I will...tonight I will remix it in mono from scratch (rather than mix from stereo back to mono leaving phasing artifacts) and see what happens.

---But I think it's clear that I'm still waiting to hear an
---example where stereo split can significantly reduce dissonance
---in a chord.
    This example is a chord, in fact it is 14 notes played with about 2 octaves (7 per octave) all at once IE droning all of them.
    But, far as binaural mixing's helping with chords, it seems you've got me there.  It seems that, rather than actually helping make the chord more consonant, it ended up helping my mind descramble/seperate/organize the signals in such a way that the phases have an effect of cancelling out when beating should occur.  In other words it seems to be more so a "compositional aid in forming scales" than something that will take a chord or scale and improve it.  It just...helps create scales with good phasing, in other words...apparently.
 
   Any clue what kind of sonic phenomena are taking place here?  As Chris also said, the sense of timbre in the fully binaural version is a lot different than in mono-aural regardless of consonance...something that Kraig also said could be musically useful...so why do you think the brain does this IE interprets the same signal in different (though apparently not more or less consonant) ways?

--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>
Subject: [tuning] Re:Short compositional example of "impossible" concordant 7 notes-at-on
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 10:27 AM

Michael wrote:
> Firstly (after all the intelligent discussion we've all had
> about how this "couldn't work": phew)...I am glad you find this
> musically useful. :-)
>      This is ironic...there must be something beyond what I
> know about how binaural hearing works that causes this...any
> ideas?
>     The point wasn't to be consonant only with headphones.. .in
> fact I am happy about the fluke that it works with normal
> speakers...both Carl and I were betting it would not before
> because we predicted there would be more beating (because of
> the two channels inadventently joining to a degree) in
> speaker mode. :-)

So my reaction is, it sounds good but not particularly
consonant. I listened through headphones and speakers
and didn't hear a large difference in consonance.
It sounds like this is Kraig's experience as well.
Are you saying above, Michael, that you also find that
headphones don't make a big difference?

To really test it, you should post a mono version also.

But I think it's clear that I'm still waiting to hear an
example where stereo split can significantly reduce dissonance
in a chord.

-Carl

Michael wrote:
>     This example is a chord, in fact it is 14 notes played with
> about 2 octaves (7 per octave) all at once IE droning all of them.

I hear notes coming in and out, not all 14 at once. I also
hear beating, though not unpleasant. However, the pitched
sounds here are at a relatively low amplitude compared to
the percussion and are somewhat obscured by the latter.
What is the tuning of the 14 notes?

>    Any clue what kind of sonic phenomena are taking place here?

To explain the overall affect of the piece using acoustics
would be difficult. But I don't hear anything that
particularly begs to be explained. Sounds good though and
you should probably make more of it and get it out there.

-Carl

Down to business trying to make this scale setup as perfect as I can before publicizing it...... :-)

    The tuning of the 14 notes is the equivalent of a different 7 note scale per 2 octaves in each of the 2 channels
_____________REPEATING PATTERN___________________________
Left channel        Right Channel
0                        240.514825      
402.031006         552.953972      
707.647164         938.890278      
1090.11438        
1200           
-----------------next octave------------
240.514825         402.031006
552.953972         707.647164
938.890278         1090.11438
1200
____________________________________________          

---if we had a third octave, the cycle would start repeating again (same as first octave)
--------third octave------------------
                          240.514825      

402.031006         552.953972      

707.647164         938.890278      

1090.11438         1200         
***********************************************************************
----I hear notes coming in and out, not all 14 at once.
   Though at least I don't hear any beating within channel, I suspect some of the notes may
beat binaurally (though perhaps not enough to be annoying). 

A) Any clue what limitation(s) make a binaural beat occur (IE the equivalent of a critical band) so I can try to figure out a way to observe it better?

B)  Or....any trick to make the notes cause "periodic distortion" (as happens with the harmonic series) instead of beating?

   The other thing is...I have a slight volume envelope on the sine drones that makes them pulsate a bit just for compositional effect.

******************************************************************

     I figure you'll always find a theoretically sound way to bust the scales I make for imperfections...but thank you for your support constructive criticism is hard to find for such craziness.

-Michael

--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>
Subject: [tuning] Re:Short compositional example of "impossible" concordant 7 notes-at-on
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 3:13 PM

Michael wrote:

>     This example is a chord, in fact it is 14 notes played with

> about 2 octaves (7 per octave) all at once IE droning all of them.

I hear notes coming in and out, not all 14 at once. I also

hear beating, though not unpleasant. However, the pitched

sounds here are at a relatively low amplitude compared to

the percussion and are somewhat obscured by the latter.

What is the tuning of the 14 notes?

>    Any clue what kind of sonic phenomena are taking place here?

To explain the overall affect of the piece using acoustics

would be difficult. But I don't hear anything that

particularly begs to be explained. Sounds good though and

you should probably make more of it and get it out there.

-Carl