Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Les guitares microtonales de Jean-Pierre POULIN

hello there mark. If you look at the guitar he's calling
the "freetune", it seems very similar to the Vogt design, though it's
somewhat hard to tell for sure as there's no additional info. So
assuming this, by "sliding door" i simply mean some
mechanisms/modification that allows one to slide frets in a track.In
both these guitars the tracks are cut under each string
necessitating "fretlets".this is of course great for absolute freedom
of intonational choice and accuracy, but also cumbersome if you're
hoping to dial up various different ETs. So what i'd love to see is a
setup where you retain the Vogt design and the endless possibilities
of the fretlets, but also one where you could run full frets along
the two outer tracks of the E strings making various ETs somewhat
less of a chore to dial in.

daniel

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mark Rankin <markrankin95511@...>
wrote:
>
> Daniel,
>
> I, too, am moved by the selection of microtonal guitars.
>
> When you mention a *"sliding door" type moveable fret electric* I
am intrigued but mystified. Would you be so kind as to explain what
you mean by "sliding door" type moveable fret electric?
>
> Thanks in anticipation,
>
> Mark Rankin
>
> --- On Fri, 10/17/08, daniel_anthony_stearns
<daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote:
>
> From: daniel_anthony_stearns <daniel_anthony_stearns@...>
> Subject: [tuning] Les guitares microtonales de Jean-Pierre POULIN
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, October 17, 2008, 12:46 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> WoW, nice collection! I'm especially interested in that "sliding-
door"
> type moveable fret electric---- >i've dreamed of exactly this kind
> of "erector set" intonation guitar for at least 20 years!
>
> http://www.jeanpier repoulin. com/Jean- Pierre_Poulin. html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

🔗Mark Rankin <markrankin95511@...>

Daniel,

As you may know, in late August French microtonalist Jacques Dudon held his annual music festival in the south of France near Le Thoronet. It was the eighth in a series of festivals which went by the name "Les Noces Harmoniques" (The Harmonic Weddings).  Sadly, it was to be the last of the festivals, due to a cutback in french government funding for the arts. In another twist, Jacques changed the spelling of his name to Jak Dudon.

Fortunately, I was able to attend the last of Jak's wonderful festivals, and I was also able to meet Jerome Desigaud and to play Jerome's unique "Freetune" guitar which he designed himself. It's difficult to describe Jerome's fretboard, but I'll do my best.

On the neck are six separate long narrow flat inflexible cast brass fingerboards which are firmly attached at the ends of the fingerboards and are raised a little bit above the wooden neck.  One of the six narrow inflexible brass fingerboards lies under each string.

Each fretlet is composed of thin hollow brass tubing the same length as the narrow fingerboards are wide. Before using nylon cord to tie the little hollow brass tubes to the narrow fingerboards, the tubes are flattened on the underside, which gives them the same profile as solid fretwire, with the rounded side up and the flat side down.

You're right about fretlets being cumbersome (and time-consuming) when you want to rearrange them for a different tuning of the open strings or a different layout of the fretlets. Another drawback, which Jerome mentioned, is that the nylon cord used to tie the fretlets to the six individual-string fingerboards tends to absorb vibration, which diminishes the instrument's volume.

The system of magnetic interchangeable fretboards which Tom Stone invented around 1978, and which I inherited in 1984, allows guitar frettings to be "swapped-out" in about six seconds. I'm not trying to boast, but suspect that once the use of metallic or ceramic magnets is perfected in interchangeable fretboards, the superiority of interchangeable fretboards for microtonal fretted instruments will become even more apparent than it already is.

-- Mark Rankin

--- On Tue, 10/21/08, daniel_anthony_stearns <daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote:

From: daniel_anthony_stearns <daniel_anthony_stearns@...>
Subject: [tuning] Re: Les guitares microtonales de Jean-Pierre POULIN
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 5:04 AM

hello there mark. If you look at the guitar he's calling
the "freetune", it seems very similar to the Vogt design, though it's
somewhat hard to tell for sure as there's no additional info. So
assuming this, by "sliding door" i simply mean some
mechanisms/modifica tion that allows one to slide frets in a track.In
both these guitars the tracks are cut under each string
necessitating "fretlets".this is of course great for absolute freedom
of intonational choice and accuracy, but also cumbersome if you're
hoping to dial up various different ETs. So what i'd love to see is a
setup where you retain the Vogt design and the endless possibilities
of the fretlets, but also one where you could run full frets along
the two outer tracks of the E strings making various ETs somewhat
less of a chore to dial in.

daniel

--- In tuning@yahoogroups. com, Mark Rankin <markrankin95511@ ...>
wrote:
>
> Daniel,
>
> I, too, am moved by the selection of microtonal guitars.
>
> When you mention a *"sliding door" type moveable fret electric* I
am intrigued but mystified. Would you be so kind as to explain what
you mean by "sliding door" type moveable fret electric?
>
> Thanks in anticipation,
>
> Mark Rankin
>
> --- On Fri, 10/17/08, daniel_anthony_ stearns
<daniel_anthony_ stearns@. ..> wrote:
>
> From: daniel_anthony_ stearns <daniel_anthony_ stearns@. ..>
> Subject: [tuning] Les guitares microtonales de Jean-Pierre POULIN
> To: tuning@yahoogroups. com
> Date: Friday, October 17, 2008, 12:46 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> WoW, nice collection! I'm especially interested in that "sliding-
door"
> type moveable fret electric---- >i've dreamed of exactly this kind
> of "erector set" intonation guitar for at least 20 years!
>
> http://www.jeanpier repoulin. com/Jean- Pierre_Poulin. html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail. yahoo.com
>

🔗Mark Rankin <markrankin95511@...>

Dan,

Vogt's design was very different. Rather than having Jerome Desigaud's six narrow fretboards, one under each string up and down the neck, Vogt had six up-the-neck, down-the-neck "slots", one slot directly under each string, then he had crossways fretlets, horizontal fretlets connected to a slideable crossbar under the sheetmetal fingerboard.

Imagine the capital letter H lying on it's side, where the top of the horizontal H is the horizontal fretlet, the crossbar of the H, now turned vertical, slides up and down the neck within it's slot, and the bottom of the H keeps the fretlet trapped under the sheet metal fingerboard so it can't fall out.

A good system, but one where it takes a while between songs to rearrange the settings of the fretlets.

- - Mark

--- On Tue, 10/21/08, daniel_anthony_stearns <daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote:

From: daniel_anthony_stearns <daniel_anthony_stearns@...>
Subject: [tuning] Re: Les guitares microtonales de Jean-Pierre POULIN
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 5:04 AM

hello there mark. If you look at the guitar he's calling
the "freetune", it seems very similar to the Vogt design, though it's
somewhat hard to tell for sure as there's no additional info. So
assuming this, by "sliding door" i simply mean some
mechanisms/modifica tion that allows one to slide frets in a track.In
both these guitars the tracks are cut under each string
necessitating "fretlets".this is of course great for absolute freedom
of intonational choice and accuracy, but also cumbersome if you're
hoping to dial up various different ETs. So what i'd love to see is a
setup where you retain the Vogt design and the endless possibilities
of the fretlets, but also one where you could run full frets along
the two outer tracks of the E strings making various ETs somewhat
less of a chore to dial in.

daniel

--- In tuning@yahoogroups. com, Mark Rankin <markrankin95511@ ...>
wrote:
>
> Daniel,
>
> I, too, am moved by the selection of microtonal guitars.
>
> When you mention a *"sliding door" type moveable fret electric* I
am intrigued but mystified. Would you be so kind as to explain what
you mean by "sliding door" type moveable fret electric?
>
> Thanks in anticipation,
>
> Mark Rankin
>
> --- On Fri, 10/17/08, daniel_anthony_ stearns
<daniel_anthony_ stearns@. ..> wrote:
>
> From: daniel_anthony_ stearns <daniel_anthony_ stearns@. ..>
> Subject: [tuning] Les guitares microtonales de Jean-Pierre POULIN
> To: tuning@yahoogroups. com
> Date: Friday, October 17, 2008, 12:46 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> WoW, nice collection! I'm especially interested in that "sliding-
door"
> type moveable fret electric---- >i've dreamed of exactly this kind
> of "erector set" intonation guitar for at least 20 years!
>
> http://www.jeanpier repoulin. com/Jean- Pierre_Poulin. html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail. yahoo.com
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

🔗daniel_anthony_stearns <daniel_anthony_stearns@...>

Thanks so much for these responses Mark, they're all very helpful.
FwIW, what i'd personally love to see (HAVE!/ is a setup where you
retain all the fretlet goodness of infinite possibility and super
fine-tuning, but also one where you have a near as possible
Intonation Erector Set were you have a pile of moveable/fixable 1, 2,
3 ,4, 5, and 6 string fret/fretlets at your disposal.... I suppose
this would require something like a zero radius and an equidistant
width at the nut and bridge (?), but THIS really is my personal dream
guitar,and has been for a loooong, long time. Take care, daniel

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mark Rankin <markrankin95511@...>
wrote:
>
> Daniel,
>
> As you may know, in late August French microtonalist Jacques Dudon
held his annual music festival in the south of France near Le
Thoronet. It was the eighth in a series of festivals which went by
the name "Les Noces Harmoniques" (The Harmonic Weddings).  Sadly, it
was to be the last of the festivals, due to a cutback in french
government funding for the arts. In another twist, Jacques changed
the spelling of his name to Jak Dudon.
>
> Fortunately, I was able to attend the last of Jak's wonderful
festivals, and I was also able to meet Jerome Desigaud and to play
Jerome's unique "Freetune" guitar which he designed himself. It's
difficult to describe Jerome's fretboard, but I'll do my best.
>
> On the neck are six separate long narrow flat inflexible cast brass
fingerboards which are firmly attached at the ends of the
fingerboards and are raised a little bit above the wooden neck.  One
of the six narrow inflexible brass fingerboards lies under each
string.
>
> Each fretlet is composed of thin hollow brass tubing the
same length as the narrow fingerboards are wide. Before using nylon
cord to tie the little hollow brass tubes to the narrow fingerboards,
the tubes are flattened on the underside, which gives them the same
profile as solid fretwire, with the rounded side up and the flat side
down.
>
> You're right about fretlets being cumbersome (and time-consuming)
when you want to rearrange them for a different tuning of the open
strings or a different layout of the fretlets. Another drawback,
which Jerome mentioned, is that the nylon cord used to tie the
fretlets to the six individual-string fingerboards tends to absorb
vibration, which diminishes the instrument's volume.
>
> The system of magnetic interchangeable fretboards which Tom Stone
invented around 1978, and which I inherited in 1984, allows guitar
frettings to be "swapped-out" in about six seconds. I'm not trying
to boast, but suspect that once the use of metallic or ceramic
magnets is perfected in interchangeable fretboards, the superiority
of interchangeable fretboards for microtonal fretted instruments will
become even more apparent than it already is.
>
> -- Mark Rankin
>
> --- On Tue, 10/21/08, daniel_anthony_stearns
<daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote:
>
> From: daniel_anthony_stearns <daniel_anthony_stearns@...>
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Les guitares microtonales de Jean-Pierre
POULIN
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 5:04 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> hello there mark. If you look at the guitar he's calling
> the "freetune", it seems very similar to the Vogt design, though
it's
> somewhat hard to tell for sure as there's no additional info. So
> assuming this, by "sliding door" i simply mean some
> mechanisms/modifica tion that allows one to slide frets in a
track.In
> both these guitars the tracks are cut under each string
> necessitating "fretlets".this is of course great for absolute
freedom
> of intonational choice and accuracy, but also cumbersome if you're
> hoping to dial up various different ETs. So what i'd love to see is
a
> setup where you retain the Vogt design and the endless
possibilities
> of the fretlets, but also one where you could run full frets along
> the two outer tracks of the E strings making various ETs somewhat
> less of a chore to dial in.
>
> daniel
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups. com, Mark Rankin <markrankin95511@ ...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Daniel,
> >
> > I, too, am moved by the selection of microtonal guitars.
> >
> > When you mention a *"sliding door" type moveable fret electric* I
> am intrigued but mystified. Would you be so kind as to explain
what
> you mean by "sliding door" type moveable fret electric?
> >
> > Thanks in anticipation,
> >
> > Mark Rankin
> >
> > --- On Fri, 10/17/08, daniel_anthony_ stearns
> <daniel_anthony_ stearns@ ..> wrote:
> >
> > From: daniel_anthony_ stearns <daniel_anthony_ stearns@ ..>
> > Subject: [tuning] Les guitares microtonales de Jean-Pierre POULIN
> > To: tuning@yahoogroups. com
> > Date: Friday, October 17, 2008, 12:46 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > WoW, nice collection! I'm especially interested in that "sliding-
> door"
> > type moveable fret electric---- >i've dreamed of exactly this
kind
> > of "erector set" intonation guitar for at least 20 years!
> >
> > http://www.jeanpier repoulin. com/Jean- Pierre_Poulin. html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail. yahoo.com
> >
>

🔗Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...>

Hi Mark, Daniel and all,

Jerome Desigaud has no website, there is a article on his invention in the
"Feuille harmonique n°15" that you can download from the AEH website, but
all in french and not light (4Mo) :
http://aeh.free.fr

Both of us play next month in a festival in Marseille (south of France)
dedicated to musical inventors :
http://ledatomica.mus.free.fr/Pages/agenda.html

We are also part of "Le Thoronet microtonal music ensemble" (EMMT)
mentionned in other pages, that emphasizes new microtonal instruments.
Jean-Pierre Poulin would certainly be part of that ensemble, if he was not
that far away north. By the way, he is also the creator of a microtunable
flûte :
http://www.jeanpierrepoulin.com/Flute.htm
And as a reminder, Jean-Pierre Poulin's website offers a good photograph of
a freetune guitar :
http://www.jeanpierrepoulin.com/Jean-Pierre_Poulin.html

I own myself a "Freetune" system I asked Jerome to adapt to a "long strings"
guitar, with 24 movable frets per octave.
Mark could not see it, nor my own alternative fretting systems because he
came in the period of our festival, during which I am running all the time.
On the other hand Mark could give to some of the people present the most
incredible workshop I never been in, but that's another subject !
We were also very impressed by Mark's banjo with magnetic interchangeable
fretboards, very efficient and a marvel of craftsmanship.

What I like in Jerome's system (or in Vogt's, which seems more complex to
build) is this : it lets you tune your guitar JUST BY EAR.
The sound waste is not very bad, the main inconvenient (for me) is that it
forbids pullings. Another inconvenient is the weight of the neck, as Jerome
uses brass bars. He plans now to try aluminium instead. He can adapt his
system on about any existing string instrument and it is not out of price.
I think there are so many systems I could tune a string instrument myself
that I found it worth to take a little time to experiment, to feel and
practice, before to decide which fretting(s) to use on a definitive
instrument (and of course with wider frets wherever it is possible).
To start from no theorical choice can be interesting.
If you are a microtonalist, wether you are tempering or not, movable frets
are a wonderful blind test, that can help you to understand what you are
doing. That's what I wish to do with this quartertone guitar : once I am
perfectly happy with it, I will take the measurements and analyse what I
did. We plan to do the same thing with the few other owners of "Freetune"
systems here.
I guess you could do that also with a synthesizer, with even more precision,
except that by entering the intervals in cents a microtonalist might be
influenced by his own theories...??
What about analyse works on voice pitch ?

- - - - - - - -
Jak Dudon

le 22/10/08 8:28, Mark Rankin à markrankin95511@... a écrit :

Daniel,

As you may know, in late August French microtonalist Jacques Dudon held his
annual music festival in the south of France near Le Thoronet. It was the
eighth in a series of festivals which went by the name "Les Noces
Harmoniques" (The Harmonic Weddings). Sadly, it was to be the last of the
festivals, due to a cutback in french government funding for the arts. In
another twist, Jacques changed the spelling of his name to Jak Dudon.

Fortunately, I was able to attend the last of Jak's wonderful festivals, and
I was also able to meet Jerome Desigaud and to play Jerome's unique
"Freetune" guitar which he designed himself. It's difficult to describe
Jerome's fretboard, but I'll do my best.

On the neck are six separate long narrow flat inflexible cast brass
fingerboards which are firmly attached at the ends of the fingerboards and
are raised a little bit above the wooden neck. One of the six narrow
inflexible brass fingerboards lies under each string.

Each fretlet is composed of thin hollow brass tubing the same length as the
narrow fingerboards are wide. Before using nylon cord to tie the little
hollow brass tubes to the narrow fingerboards, the tubes are flattened on
the underside, which gives them the same profile as solid fretwire, with the
rounded side up and the flat side down.

You're right about fretlets being cumbersome (and time-consuming) when you
want to rearrange them for a different tuning of the open strings or a
different layout of the fretlets. Another drawback, which Jerome mentioned,
is that the nylon cord used to tie the fretlets to the six individual-string
fingerboards tends to absorb vibration, which diminishes the instrument's
volume.

The system of magnetic interchangeable fretboards which Tom Stone invented
around 1978, and which I inherited in 1984, allows guitar frettings to be
"swapped-out" in about six seconds. I'm not trying to boast, but suspect
that once the use of metallic or ceramic magnets is perfected in
interchangeable fretboards, the superiority of interchangeable fretboards
for microtonal fretted instruments will become even more apparent than it
already is.
-- Mark Rankin

--- On Tue, 10/21/08, daniel_anthony_stearns
<daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote:
From: daniel_anthony_stearns <daniel_anthony_stearns@...>
Subject: [tuning] Re: Les guitares microtonales de Jean-Pierre POULIN
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 5:04 AM

hello there mark. If you look at the guitar he's calling
the "freetune", it seems very similar to the Vogt design, though it's
somewhat hard to tell for sure as there's no additional info. So
assuming this, by "sliding door" i simply mean some
mechanisms/modifica tion that allows one to slide frets in a track.In
both these guitars the tracks are cut under each string
necessitating "fretlets".this is of course great for absolute freedom
of intonational choice and accuracy, but also cumbersome if you're
hoping to dial up various different ETs. So what i'd love to see is a
setup where you retain the Vogt design and the endless possibilities
of the fretlets, but also one where you could run full frets along
the two outer tracks of the E strings making various ETs somewhat
less of a chore to dial in.

daniel

🔗threesixesinarow <CACCOLA@...>

🔗daniel_anthony_stearns <daniel_anthony_stearns@...>

🔗threesixesinarow <CACCOLA@...>

The scale works out for an American standard number 2 flathead
screw, which can be very small and fiddly especially if you
don't have any extra. I don't think it would take very long
to make those pieces from sheetmetal so as long as you don't
mix them up it might not be such a disadvantage needing more
than one size. I'd make them concave on the bottom in either
case, so they don't twist or cup when you fasten them in place.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
<daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote:
>
> Hey, thanks for this!is this image to-scale? probably not, as
> that would have to be a very small screw if so!I guess the
> advantage of a zero radius and equidistant neck width would
> be that fret sizes, especially full frets could be more or
> less uniform?
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "threesixesinarow" <CACCOLA@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
> > <daniel_anthony_stearns@> wrote:
> >
> > > FwIW, what i'd personally love to see (HAVE!/ is a setup
> > > where you retain all the fretlet goodness of infinite
> > > possibility and super fine-tuning, but also one where
> > > you have a near as possible Intonation Erector Set were
> > > you have a pile of moveable/fixable 1, 2, 3 ,4, 5, and 6
> > > string fret/fretlets at your disposal.... I suppose this
> > > would require something like a zero radius and an
> > > equidistant width at the nut and bridge (?), but THIS
> > > really is my personal dream guitar,and has been for a
> > > loooong, long time.
> >
> >
> > It's ugly but something like this wouldn't need very many
> > tools to do, and you could make regular spaced tapped
> > holes or tee slots like on machine tools.
> >
> > http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/mireut/fretlet.png
> >
> > Clark
> >
>