Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Creative use of stereo in tuning

I have found it is ideal to build scales with half the notes on opposite sides in the stereo spectrum.
For example, even if you play 2 "basic and boring" 12TET scales IE
A) C,D,E,F,G,A,B (left channel) and
B) C#,D#,F#,G#,A#,C (right channel)

on the far opposite sides of the stereo spectrum....it sounds far less stressed/dissonant than it would if they were not panned.
Of course, I also figure using custom tempered scales would yield more expressive
and/or clean-sounding results.

Have any of you done or heard of experiments with playing two scales each on different sides of the stereo spectrum? And, if so, what did you find out?

-Michael

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

Michael Sheiman wrote:
> Have any of you done or heard of experiments with playing two scales > each on different sides of the stereo spectrum? And, if so, what did > you find out?
>
> -Michael
>
> La Monte Young's sound installations are multi-channel.

The last few times I performed my microtonal gtr drones,
I used two guitar amps so if I was using a small
microtonal interval, the speakers didn't flip out from all
the beating.

--
* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com

🔗Andreas Sparschuh <a_sparschuh@...>

🔗Dave Seidel <dave@...>

In some of my pieces, I put small just intervals on opposite sides of the stereo, to get a binaural beating (for example, http://mysterybear.net/article/9/the-gemini-nebula -- which is based on the ratios of a La Monte Young installation, octave-reduced to a "scale"). Doing something similar in the one I'm working on now, too.

- Dave

Andreas Sparschuh wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@...>
> wrote/asked:
> >> Have any of you done or heard of experiments with playing two >> scales each on different sides of the stereo spectrum?
>>
> Basics:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichotic_pitch
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichotic_listening
> Some demos:
> http://sirl.stanford.edu/~bob/research/dpDemos/index.php
> http://www.parmly.luc.edu/parmly/huggins.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats#cite_note-pmid-7300432-14
> > bye
> A.S.
>

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

That's the basic principle how pipes of pipe organ are located, but as I know they use two whole tone scales which is better balanced and less striking in standard tonal music:

C, D, E, F#, G#, A# on one side
C#, D#, F, G, A, B on the other

Of course if you play some contemporary organ music which uses whole tone scales then stereo effect is clearly to hear.

I personally prefer using of similar divisions of 12tone terrain compositionally, like multilayered music, special kind of dodecaphony or serial music, every layer using different part of chromatic... Kind of "12 tone modality" which gave me a possibility to make chromatic terrain to sound more interestingly, or in a certain characteristic style (be it historical music, world ethnic etc.). Almost like your the most simple example of this technique: C diatonic (or other historical 7note scales with different root on white keys) against different anhemitonic pentatonics (on black keys)...

Daniel Forro

On 9 Oct 2008, at 11:25 PM, Michael Sheiman wrote:

>
> I have found it is ideal to build scales with half the notes on > opposite sides in the stereo spectrum.
> For example, even if you play 2 "basic and boring" 12TET scales IE
> A) C,D,E,F,G,A,B (left channel) and
> B) C#,D#,F#,G#,A#,C (right channel)
>
> on the far opposite sides of the stereo spectrum....it sounds far > less stressed/dissonant than it would if they were not panned.
> Of course, I also figure using custom tempered scales would > yield more expressive
> and/or clean-sounding results.
>
> Have any of you done or heard of experiments with playing two > scales each on different sides of the stereo spectrum? And, if > so, what did you find out?
>
> -Michael
>

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

I would think such kind of binaurality can work full power only in headphones... Is it to hear enough with speakers?

Daniel Forro

On 10 Oct 2008, at 8:12 AM, Dave Seidel wrote:

> In some of my pieces, I put small just intervals on opposite sides of
> the stereo, to get a binaural beating (for example,
> http://mysterybear.net/article/9/the-gemini-nebula -- which is > based on
> the ratios of a La Monte Young installation, octave-reduced to a
> "scale"). Doing something similar in the one I'm working on now, too.
>
> - Dave
>
> Andreas Sparschuh wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@...>
> > wrote/asked:
> >
> >> Have any of you done or heard of experiments with playing two
> >> scales each on different sides of the stereo spectrum?
> >>
> > Basics:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichotic_pitch
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichotic_listening
> > Some demos:
> > http://sirl.stanford.edu/~bob/research/dpDemos/index.php
> > http://www.parmly.luc.edu/parmly/huggins.html
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats#cite_note-> pmid-7300432-14
> >
> > bye
> > A.S.
> >
>

🔗Dave Seidel <dave@...>

I agree that the effect is strongest with headphones. But the beating is perceptible with speakers as well, it just has a different character.

- Dave

Daniel Forro wrote:
> I would think such kind of binaurality can work full power only in > headphones... Is it to hear enough with speakers?
> > Daniel Forro
> > On 10 Oct 2008, at 8:12 AM, Dave Seidel wrote:
> >> In some of my pieces, I put small just intervals on opposite sides of
>> the stereo, to get a binaural beating (for example,
>> http://mysterybear.net/article/9/the-gemini-nebula -- which is >> based on
>> the ratios of a La Monte Young installation, octave-reduced to a
>> "scale"). Doing something similar in the one I'm working on now, too.
>>
>> - Dave

🔗Andreas Sparschuh <a_sparschuh@...>

🔗Tom Dent <stringph@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> That's the basic principle how pipes of pipe organ are located, but
> as I know they use two whole tone scales which is better balanced and
> less striking in standard tonal music:
>
> C, D, E, F#, G#, A# on one side
> C#, D#, F, G, A, B on the other
>
> Of course if you play some contemporary organ music which uses whole
> tone scales then stereo effect is clearly to hear.
>
>

I think the main reason is to avoid having semitones next to each
other as they tend to affect each other's pitch strongly.
Older organs also use a division into 4 with C-E-G#, G-B-D#, D-F#-A#,
F-A-C# which tends to pull major thirds towards purity (if they're not
musically far off) when sounding together.
~~~T~~~

🔗Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@...>

This whole idea of using stereo division to reduce beating and skewing of tone due to it all makes great sense.

Modern electronic music production/mixing technique also involves moving close
parts of chords on opposite sides of the panning spectrum for the kind of "purity" you
described.

I am amazed how the design of many modern instruments...say, guitars, does not take this into account considering how organs are among the first Western instruments ever invented.
Wouldn't it be ideal, for example, on a guitar...to have different strings read to different stereo channels through pick-ups...and at least have 2 channels (IE a guitar cable would be a stereo cable not a mono one)?

--- On Sun, 10/12/08, Tom Dent <stringph@...> wrote:
From: Tom Dent <stringph@...>
Subject: [tuning] Re: Creative use of stereo in tuning
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, October 12, 2008, 10:23 AM

--- In tuning@yahoogroups. com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@... > wrote:

> That's the basic principle how pipes of pipe organ are located, but

> as I know they use two whole tone scales which is better balanced and

> less striking in standard tonal music:

> C, D, E, F#, G#, A# on one side

> C#, D#, F, G, A, B on the other

> Of course if you play some contemporary organ music which uses whole

> tone scales then stereo effect is clearly to hear.

I think the main reason is to avoid having semitones next to each

other as they tend to affect each other's pitch strongly.

Older organs also use a division into 4 with C-E-G#, G-B-D#, D-F#-A#,

F-A-C# which tends to pull major thirds towards purity (if they're not

musically far off) when sounding together.

~~~T~~~

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

Concerning guitar I'm quite sure it exists, I just can't remember where I have seen it... It was electro-acoustic and electrified guitar.

Of course there were also hexaphonic pick-ups but they served mainly for converting guitar to MIDI, not for individual audio output for each string.

Talking about this I would add:

Some synthesizers (Yamah or Korg for sure) could be chained on one MIDI channel, then one of them could be set to play only odd notes, the other one to play even notes. Interesting effect. Especially when there are different sounds in memory :-)

I liked also one performance effect on Yamaha TX81z tone generator, where it was possible to program chords on all 12 root notes, and when playing monophonically these chords were triggered. Every note of the chord could be left or right panned. It was good for use with WX Wind Controller, kind of block voicing. And because this small FM modul has also microtuning capability (octave and full keyboard) chords can be tuned as we need. Great feature.

Daniel Forro

On 13 Oct 2008, at 4:15 PM, Michael Sheiman wrote:

>
> This whole idea of using stereo division to reduce beating and > skewing of tone due to it all makes great sense.
>
> Modern electronic music production/mixing technique also > involves moving close
> parts of chords on opposite sides of the panning spectrum for the > kind of "purity" you
> described.
>
> I am amazed how the design of many modern instruments...say, > guitars, does not take this into account considering how organs are > among the first Western instruments ever invented.
> Wouldn't it be ideal, for example, on a guitar...to have > different strings read to different stereo channels through pick-> ups...and at least have 2 channels (IE a guitar cable would be a > stereo cable not a mono one)?

🔗chrisvaisvil@...

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

It seem if there is some perceived difference then one musical application i could think of.
If say the beginning and ending might use the same music. The opening could use the more" dissonant" panning" the ending a more "consonant" one. Just as easy to do this by pitch though.

I have done some work with separating speakers a wavelength away from each other based on the fundamental. Also the opposite . There is quite a bit of difference between the two which i am not sure i have the words to describe. Maybe 'fixed' or 'scattered'. Likewise with recording, separating the mixes this distance. Obviously the music must warrant it.
--

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

Interesting theme, I don't think such ideas were enough studied and used in recordings.

On 16 Oct 2008, at 3:48 PM, Kraig Grady wrote:

> It seem if there is some perceived difference then one musical
> application i could think of.
> If say the beginning and ending might use the same music. The opening
> could use the more" dissonant" panning" the ending a more "consonant"
> one. Just as easy to do this by pitch though.
>
Do you mean to detune notes of signals which are left or right panned? What to do then with sounds which are not fully panned (like 30% left, 70% right channel)?
> I have done some work with separating speakers a wavelength away from
> each other based on the fundamental.
>
Which wavelength? Which fundamental? Music uses usually a lot of different notes so this "distance" will work only for this particular one (and its harmonics?)...

And what about the other distances, from your ears, which geometry has location of speakers to ears, what about other distances to the walls or other reflecting surface, what about siye of the room, power of speakers, frequency distribution in music, total equalization of record, two-way/three-way boxes, mono subwoofer for bass frequencies was used?... I think there's a lot of important parameters when speakers are used...
> Also the opposite .
>
What "opposite"?
> There is quite
> a bit of difference between the two which i am not sure i have the > words
> to describe. Maybe 'fixed' or 'scattered'.
>
Isn't it just some phase cancellations? Like a comb filter?
> Likewise with recording,
> separating the mixes this distance.
>
What do you mean? A record has usually one mix...
> Obviously the music must warrant it.
> -->
> /^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>
> _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://> anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>

Thanks for more explanation.

Daniel Forro

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Daniel Forro wrote:

>
Which wavelength? Which fundamental? Music uses usually a lot of
different notes so this "distance" will work only for this particular
one (and its harmonics?).

The tonic or key center usually in refrerence to the instrument being used
..

>
What "opposite"?
for instance the golden mean ( .618034....) of the wave length of the tonic

>
Isn't it just some phase cancellations? Like a comb filter?
yes the result is a matter of Phase reaching the ear
> Likewise with recording,

>
What do you mean? A record has usually one mix...
i meant Microphone, placing the mikes a wavelength apart.

While there is an difference, once the music moves around allot this gets buried or not.
That was as far as i carried it. but since i have access to an anechoic chamber these days i might
look into some more.

I think it is something one can consider on a production side of things with mike placements more than asking everyone to set up their stereo different. But generally there are so many other variables i use it only when easy or strikes me.

Since all my instruments are in a form of just intonation ( i never detune anything ), all the ratios will have some relationship to such spacings

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',