Harmonické základy čtvrttónové soustavy

Dan Stearns wrote:

> I have the latter
> of these in Czech transferred to PDF at yousendit, and I'd be happy
> to share it with anyone who'd be interested:
> http://tinyurl.com/4cbtuj

For one thing, I�ve downloaded the PDF but no text seems to appear. For another thing, I�ve never heard Carrillo, but I HAVE heard H�ba -- particularly some excerpts from �Matka� and then some short instrumental pieces whose names I don�t know. All of them were written in quartertones. My impression is that making totally new harmonic systems is pretty difficult if the used tuning doesn�t reflect the basic acoustical properties of intervals and tones. If 24-EDO is used for something else than approximating tetrachords with neutral thirds or seconds, then I find it quite �tough� to make the music interesting -- I personally don�t like the way H�ba used 24-EDO at all. Moreover, it makes a bad representation to �microtonal music� in the Czech regions because, after you say �microtonal music�, many people answer: �Ahhh, that�s that H�ba, oh yeah, but that�s just out of tune.� I can�t pretend I disagree because for me H�ba�s music sounds both out of tune and often terribly dissonant. . This makes it even more difficult to defend other non-12-EDO tunings like different EDOs or other non-equal tunings like just intonation or various linear temperaments (and I have already experienced this while speaking both to my schoolmates and to teachers). Luckily, even in the Czech republic, there are a few musicians interested in playing Baroque music, which makes it a bit easier for them to appreciate the value of historical tunings. I�ve never stayed in Prague for a long time but I think it�s even more difficult to present alternative tunings to people in Prague than to, say, people in Brno (about 200 km away), which is where I live. Anyway, I haven�t heard any of H�ba�s �twelfth-tone� pieces. In theory, twelfth-tones (72-EDO) should provide excellent intervallic material but I�m not sure if H�ba could have realized this and used it accordingly.

Petr

Hello there petr, I just tried the yousendit link and everything
appears to be okay there, so I'm not sure what happened... I guess
I'll have to wait and see if anyone else has a problem? Regarding
Haba and 24tet, I both agree and disagree. I agree to the extent that
there is a tendency to equate all microtonality with being "out of
tune", and that's at least in part due to the way certain
practitioners, like Haba for example, implemented their microtonal
resources. But I also think this is more a question of disliking the
music than it is the resource, and that Haba would've made "Haba
music" in whatever tuning, essentially--or at least to the important
extent that few people who dislike his quartertone music ever mention
how much they like his conventionally tuned, non-micro music. Perhaps
you, and perhaps many others, would have preferred a different, more
acoustic-based approach, and that's fine as far as it goes too, but
that's not the only approach either...I mean art often walks in the
back door, the side door, flies in through the upstairs window, and
it isn't always simply because it's ignorant of the fact that there's
a front door!

That said, I think quartertones and, by association, fractional-
interval music have gradually seen a shift in public opinion to the
point where they no longer ring with any of the mystery and
futuristic charm they must've in days gone by. Now they're largely
damned to the same contemporary hell as serialism...some unfortunate,
nasty uncouth byproduct of 12-tone thinking, only exponentially
worsened! Too bad... personally I think 24 is a fine enough tuning,
not my favorite and perhaps a bit overused, but no real problems
there for me. However, when it's taken to actual music I'll have to
reserve my opinions only to those actual pieces, and I think that
applies right across the stylistic and procedural spectrum.

http://netnewmusic.ning.com/profile/danstearns
http://zebox.com/daniel_anthony_stearns/
http://zebox.com/danstearns_4/
http://www.youtube.com/user/danstearns
http://zebox.com/danstearns_5/
http://zebox.com/avantgarde_jazzguitar/

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Paøízek <p.parizek@...> wrote:
>
> Dan Stearns wrote:
>
> > I have the latter
> > of these in Czech transferred to PDF at yousendit, and I'd be
happy
> > to share it with anyone who'd be interested:
> > http://tinyurl.com/4cbtuj
>
> For one thing, I've downloaded the PDF but no text seems to appear.
For
> another thing, I've never heard Carrillo, but I HAVE heard Hába --
> particularly some excerpts from „Matka" and then some short
instrumental
> pieces whose names I don't know. All of them were written in
quartertones.
> My impression is that making totally new harmonic systems is pretty
> difficult if the used tuning doesn't reflect the basic acoustical
properties
> of intervals and tones. If 24-EDO is used for something else than
> approximating tetrachords with neutral thirds or seconds, then I
find it
> quite „tough" to make the music interesting -- I personally don't
like the
> way Hába used 24-EDO at all. Moreover, it makes a bad
representation to
> „microtonal music" in the Czech regions because, after you
say „microtonal
> music", many people answer: „Ahhh, that's that Hába, oh yeah, but
that's
> just out of tune." I can't pretend I disagree because for me Hába's
music
> sounds both out of tune and often terribly dissonant. . This makes
it even
> more difficult to defend other non-12-EDO tunings like different
EDOs or
> other non-equal tunings like just intonation or various linear
temperaments
> (and I have already experienced this while speaking both to my
schoolmates
> and to teachers). Luckily, even in the Czech republic, there are a
few
> musicians interested in playing Baroque music, which makes it a bit
easier
> for them to appreciate the value of historical tunings. I've never
stayed in
> Prague for a long time but I think it's even more difficult to
present
> alternative tunings to people in Prague than to, say, people in
Brno (about
> 200 km away), which is where I live. Anyway, I haven't heard any of
Hába`s
> „twelfth-tone" pieces. In theory, twelfth-tones (72-EDO) should
provide
> excellent intervallic material but I'm not sure if Hába could have
realized
> this and used it accordingly.
>
> Petr
>

I think modulation and increasing dissonance was a gradual process for acceptance so why not fractional tunings? While there are examples of atonality in the 1400's it surely was not popular. Why would modern microtonality be an exception? To be art does _everything- need to bend to the need of the expression?
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "daniel_anthony_stearns" <daniel_anthony_stearns@yahoo.com>

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:56:23
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [tuning] Re: Harmonick� z�klady �tvrtt�
nov� soustavy

Hello there petr, I just tried the yousendit link and everything
appears to be okay there, so I'm not sure what happened... I guess
I'll have to wait and see if anyone else has a problem? Regarding
Haba and 24tet, I both agree and disagree. I agree to the extent that
there is a tendency to equate all microtonality with being "out of
tune", and that's at least in part due to the way certain
practitioners, like Haba for example, implemented their microtonal
resources. But I also think this is more a question of disliking the
music than it is the resource, and that Haba would've made "Haba
music" in whatever tuning, essentially--or at least to the important
extent that few people who dislike his quartertone music ever mention
how much they like his conventionally tuned, non-micro music. Perhaps
you, and perhaps many others, would have preferred a different, more
acoustic-based approach, and that's fine as far as it goes too, but
that's not the only approach either...I mean art often walks in the
back door, the side door, flies in through the upstairs window, and
it isn't always simply because it's ignorant of the fact that there's
a front door!

That said, I think quartertones and, by association, fractional-
interval music have gradually seen a shift in public opinion to the
point where they no longer ring with any of the mystery and
futuristic charm they must've in days gone by. Now they're largely
damned to the same contemporary hell as serialism...some unfortunate,
nasty uncouth byproduct of 12-tone thinking, only exponentially
worsened! Too bad... personally I think 24 is a fine enough tuning,
not my favorite and perhaps a bit overused, but no real problems
there for me. However, when it's taken to actual music I'll have to
reserve my opinions only to those actual pieces, and I think that
applies right across the stylistic and procedural spectrum.

http://netnewmusic.ning.com/profile/danstearns
http://zebox.com/daniel_anthony_stearns/
http://zebox.com/danstearns_4/
http://www.youtube.com/user/danstearns
http://zebox.com/danstearns_5/
http://zebox.com/avantgarde_jazzguitar/

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Pa��zek <p.parizek@...> wrote:
>
> Dan Stearns wrote:
>
> > I have the latter
> > of these in Czech transferred to PDF at yousendit, and I'd be
happy
> > to share it with anyone who'd be interested:
> > http://tinyurl.com/4cbtuj
>
> For one thing, I've downloaded the PDF but no text seems to appear.
For
> another thing, I've never heard Carrillo, but I HAVE heard H�ba --
> particularly some excerpts from �Matka" and then some short
instrumental
> pieces whose names I don't know. All of them were written in
quartertones.
> My impression is that making totally new harmonic systems is pretty
> difficult if the used tuning doesn't reflect the basic acoustical
properties
> of intervals and tones. If 24-EDO is used for something else than
> approximating tetrachords with neutral thirds or seconds, then I
find it
> quite �tough" to make the music interesting -- I personally don't
like the
> way H�ba used 24-EDO at all. Moreover, it makes a bad
representation to
> �microtonal music" in the Czech regions because, after you
say �microtonal
> music", many people answer: �Ahhh, that's that H�ba, oh yeah, but
that's
> just out of tune." I can't pretend I disagree because for me H�ba's
music
> sounds both out of tune and often terribly dissonant. . This makes
it even
> more difficult to defend other non-12-EDO tunings like different
EDOs or
> other non-equal tunings like just intonation or various linear
temperaments
> (and I have already experienced this while speaking both to my
schoolmates
> and to teachers). Luckily, even in the Czech republic, there are a
few
> musicians interested in playing Baroque music, which makes it a bit
easier
> for them to appreciate the value of historical tunings. I've never
stayed in
> Prague for a long time but I think it's even more difficult to
present
> alternative tunings to people in Prague than to, say, people in
Brno (about
> 200 km away), which is where I live. Anyway, I haven't heard any of
H�ba`s
> �twelfth-tone" pieces. In theory, twelfth-tones (72-EDO) should
provide
> excellent intervallic material but I'm not sure if H�ba could have
realized
> this and used it accordingly.
>
> Petr
>