Re: Why are scales with a minimal number of different intervals more

This is contrary to facts. The only places in the world where you have equally intervals is as a 'rational' construction. Most cultures use scales with unequal size steps. The source might be Ben Johnston say the opposite in his video that was posted. But i am afraid he is mistaken. Those cultures that use just intervals are melodically based. those that use 'harmonies' temper.

If you think about it the more interval sizes you have the less ambiguous where you are in the scale.

12 tone intervals are in no way easy to sing or hear nor are any ETs easy to sing and/or learn. Otherwise tuning by ear would be a easy, it is anything but. That they are computer friendly is something else.

Erv Wilson with his concept of MOS structures saw these as pattern making and/or archetypal forces, but in the real world are modified by harmonic/timbral/ etc. forces.
--

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> This is contrary to facts. The only places in the world where
> you have equally intervals is as a 'rational' construction.

Not sure what you mean here.

> Those cultures that use just intervals are melodically based.
> those that use 'harmonies' temper.

That's a tricky statement. Some definitions of "temperament"
explicitly require that it improve harmonies. But melodic
scales the world over are drawn to low mean variety, and even
all the way to equal temperaments. In Africa and Asia,
5- and 7-tone equal temperament are clear targets, and claims
of the importance of the deviations therefrom are often
greatly exaggerated.

> If you think about it the more interval sizes you have the
> less ambiguous where you are in the scale.

That's true. Rothenberg says this engenders a different
*style* of melodic writing. Blues singing is a good example
of this more static melodic style.

> 12 tone intervals are in no way easy to sing or hear nor are
> any ETs easy to sing and/or learn.

Nobody's making that claim. In fact, the bare intervals
are *harder* to sing/learn than JI intervals. But when you
start constructing melodies, things get more complicated.

> Erv Wilson with his concept of MOS structures saw these as
> pattern making and/or archetypal forces, but in the real
> world are modified by harmonic/timbral/ etc. forces.

MOS scales have mean variety 2. That's as low as you can
get without being an equal temperament.

-Carl

When asked about the best tuning between various villages of a tribe. The ones closest to ET tunings are not chosen.

Carl wrote:
In Africa and Asia,
5- and 7-tone equal temperament are clear targets, and claims
of the importance of the deviations therefrom are often
greatly exaggerated.
--

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

I didn't expect you to agree!

If you have any citations showing that Thai and African
musicians can *systematically* tune something other than
ET on a fixed-pitch instrument, and that they prefer it
to ET, I'd like to see them. Not that I'd be terribly
surprised if this were the case.

But in my view the differences are probably akin to those
between well temperaments and 12-ET. No self-respecting
harpsichordist would tune his instrument in equal
temperament, but 12-ET is still the theoretical "target"
of the well temperaments, and the differences are small
enough that many in an audience wouldn't notice.

Several musicians I have played demos for do NOT prefer
meantone for tonal-era melodies, saying it sounds wrong.
Of course tonal music often sounds great in 31 because
there are other factors to consider (namely harmony).

According to Wikipedia, "a Thai xylophone measured by
Morton (1974) varied only +/- 5 cents from 7-ET".
Erlich cites Daniel Wolf that Thai fixed-pitch instrument
tunings approximate 7-ET.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> When asked about the best tuning between various villages
> of a tribe. The ones closest to ET tunings are not chosen.
>
> Carl wrote:
>> In Africa and Asia,
>> 5- and 7-tone equal temperament are clear targets, and claims
>> of the importance of the deviations therefrom are often
>> greatly exaggerated.

Thai tuning was put in place in Thailand by 'theorist' in the last century. The tunings in Burma would be a better measure of what the tuning in this region would be.
I have also seen it described by one leading ethnomusicologist that the panpipes in the Solomon Islands are tuned to 7 ET. the measurements do not even provide 7 tones in the octave, much less equal. Measurements often are political tools.

Hugh Tracy's book on the Chopi points out that the village of Mavila was the best tuning even if they said it was 7 ET. it is further from it than others. Even though they refer to it being 'equal' this term means something different to them.

Unless a culture modulated what would be the point of an ET, unless we are going to assume that people like ET even if in one key.
If one has limited resources on an instrument, having each mode distinct makes more differet type of music possible. Why would a culture choose this?

To show ET tuning you would need examples of the music being transposed without any distinction being made.
--

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Interesting. I do like 7 ET myself, although I don't know if I'd
gravitate towards that for music that doesn't modulate.

One thing I notice is if a singer jumps from C-E, she'll probably sing
that pretty close to a 5/4 major third. But, if she goes from C-D and
then from D-E, she might end up closer to 81/64 than 5/4. I think it's
just because singers usually have in mind a list of different
intervals - a major third, a whole step, etc... And the one they'll
pick out for the whole step is usually around 9/8, and the one they
pick out for the major third is usually 5/4. If they go from C-D and
then from D-E, they move up two whole steps. I don't often hear 9/8
tempered flat to accomodate 5/4 or 5/4 tempered sharp to accomodate
9/8, except the latter in certain cases, such as when two whole steps
are sung in a row (which isn't really a tempering at all).