(no subject)

_Re: Bach's "anti-Rameau" attitude... _
(/tuning/topicId_77237.html#77452;_ylc=X3oDMTJwdXUyYzY0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzcwNjA1BGdycHNwSWQ
DMTcwNTg5Nzc1MwRtc2dJZAM3NzQ1MgRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMjEzOTQ3MTU4)

Posted by: "Brad Lehman" _bpl@... _ (mailto:bpl@...?Subject=
Re:%20Bach's%20"anti-Rameau"%20attitude...) _bplehman27 _
(http://profiles.yahoo.com/bplehman27)
Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:14 pm (PDT)
--- In _tuning@..._ (mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com) , Afmmjr@...
wrote:

> Johnny: For the record, all of Werckmeister' Johnny: For the record,
have
> enharmonic identities. This includes Werckmeister' enharmonic ident
VI. W.
> 1692, too. We know that Werckmeister was dead against meantone.
It was for a
> previous era, from Werckmeister' previous era, from Werc
revolution in
> thinking, and a great reason for Buxtehude and Werckmeister to
become friends.
> Bach, too, if a bit younger.

Brad:
1. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that Bach ever met
Werckmeister, or that they were ever friends?

Johnny:
There are connections to be made between Werckmeister and Bach, although
they never met. Bach's cousin, Johann Walther, studied with Werckmeister, while
continuing correspondence afterwards until Werckmeister passed away.
Additionally, Werckmeister sent his cousin many different works, especially works
by Buxtehude. Werckmeister inherited the entire Praetorious collection, btw.
Werckmeister was practically a next door neighbor in terms of georgraphical
proximity. Werckmeister's ideas were the big, bright ideas of the time,
fully exploited by Bach at the age of 18 in Arnstadt when he adjudicated the new
organ in Arnstadt built by Wender, identified as in the Werckmeister camp by
Kuhnau (as opposed to the meantone Silbermann).

Brad:
2. Werckmeister'2. Werckmeister'<WBR>s "III" temperament (the on
"correct" temp) doesn't solve meantone's problems. It leaves four of
the five worst and most obvious problems in place! It gets rid of the
wolf 5th, sure, but it doesn't get rid of the four wide diminished
4ths (typically F#-Bb, C#-F, G#-C, and B-Eb). All it does is trim
them down a little bit to become Pythagorean in size, *less*
annoyingly far out of tune...only a full syntonic comma too wide.

Johnny:
This is your own well expressed and passionate point of view. It likely
influences many, internationally, who are swayed by such detailed passion.
Only...it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Surely, you must recognize that I
disagree with you. The larger fourths are delicious. It does so much for the music
of Bach. It lends character to the well-temperament that is Bach, making
musically craggy what is otherwise more stark. According to Werckmeister's,
meantone's problem number one is the howling wolf. There were other items, too
many accidentals, too many new notes requiring subsemitones, too
non-chromatic as a result, etc.

Brad:
3. What "revolution in thinking" is this idea of modifying regular
meantone layouts so they sound better in more keys? You'd have to
prove that nobody before Werckmeister ever conceived of, or said
anything about, or ever *did* in practice, any spreading-around of
pure 5ths here and there to get rid of a wolf. Maybe John Bull
thought of it, or somebody else, generations before Werckmeister was
even born. How do you "know" that Werckmeister was making up anything
that was in any way new?

Johnny: Actually, you would have to prove there was someone earlier, which
you have not. Even if someone had preceded Werckmeister, perhaps someone in
China, it doesn't have the clout of influence that makes the difference.
This same clout is right on top of the young and impressionable JS Bach. To my
knowledge, W. is the first to write of the circle of fifths which allowed for
the homogenization of the enharmonic identities into the same note.
Admittedly, Marin Mersenne wrote theoretically about equal temperament, even Zarlino
wrote about equal temperament for lutes, but Werckmeister is the man when it
came to a circular well temperament on the organ and other keyboards. BTW,
WIII is recommended for all keyboards, not just the organ, as some have
implied.

Brad:
4. How do you suppose that Bach's uncle, the one he called "the
profound composer", was tuning in Eisenach when JSB was born there in
1685 (and before that)? That elder Bach's music is chromatically
adventurous, too, and doesn't really work in any sort of meantone.
Couldn't he have been using some circulating temperament(Couldn't he h
way before Werckmeister put anything into print?

Johnny:
Yes, I believe Uncle JC Bach did use what came to be called WIII tuning, if
not one of the other variants. W. was very careful not to imply he invented
it. It was already in use. The big gun in the neighborhood of W. was uncle
JC. They probably met, JC and AW, if only because of their mutual interests,
accomplishments, and fame. Both was mugged by the system and complained
about it (e.g., wages being robbed, misunderstandings by those around them,
chromaticism, from a famous family of musicians).

Brad:
Again, where do you
get the idea that W's work was revolutionary? Are you just studying
*published documents*, or are you studying real music and the notes
used in it?

Johnny: I've written a book on the subject Bach and Tuning. Now that the
school season is winding up, I should be able to finish a version of the book
that can be distributed. Certainly, if I were to simply rehash what has
already been published there would be no purpose to volunteer to spend so many
hours over 3 decades. I learned to speak German for this. I wrote a master
thesis at columbia university on this. I visited and researched in Leipzig,
Muhlhausen, Eisenach, Kothen, Arnstadt, Erfurt, and Wolfenbuttal to this
effort. Perhaps you could say I am taking a more ethnomusicologically-influenced
study. The unequalness that makes up well temperament is part of the
Thuringian aesthetic of the period, as a visit to Werckmeister's Quedlinburg church
door demonstrates.

>
> I believe Buxtehude shared with Werckmeister the distaste for
meantone which
> comes out of an improviser's mind set. My email to Tom outlined the
case
> for an organ improviser to need a full circle of keys to be
virtuosic, to be
> even, to be interesting (since there are greater differences between
keys in
> such tunings).

Brad:
Gee, Johnny, you don't need to sell the improvisation idea to *me*.
I've been improvising organ pieces in public for more than 20 years.
...
Johnny: Glad to hear of it. Too bad you didn't make it clear earlier. Do
you identify with the idea of needing a full circle palate for chromatic
improvisation?

Brad:
And especially, have you read pages 213-217 in part 2 where I laid out
my measurements of W-III, showing why it's lumpy?

Johnny: How academic. I sing Werckmeister III tuning, as I sing Harry
Partch Li Po Songs. What you call lumpy I find dramatic. Do you fully realize
that this List includes all manner of different tuning systems. In recent
years I have explored polymicrotonality. You could say I have the stretched ears
that George Ives hoped for his son Charles. I don't see how your writing
how something sounds bad trumps my hearing that same something sounding good.
Off hand, I don't recall anything that long (217 pages) that you wrote.
Probably you mean the second part of the Oxford publication. It's been some
time now. I'll take another look.

Brad: As always, all the parts of it (seven files for reading, plus some
recorded musical examples) are freely downloadable from here:
_http://www-personalhttp://www-http://www-phttp://www-p_
(http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/outline.html)

> Johnny: > I do not want to be insulting.

Brad:
Nor do I. I do point out, though, that I have a lot more stake in
playing harpsichord than you do.

Johnny: I don't think this is true. I produce concerts and CDs with
harpsichord all the time. I want the harpsichord to sound magnificent. To that end
I have been quite critical of certain instruments in certain combinations,
and blends. We have a new instrument now that really brought us into a new
dimension. WIII tuning with its 8 pure fifths give a great richness to the
instrument. Everything I produce has to have something very special about it.
Almost 30 years now.

Brad:
Well, carry on. My wife needs the computer back now. :)
Brad Lehman

Johnny:
Thank you for trying to see what I am doing.

: )

**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)