Swiss scholar corrects Brad's pesudo"french 704C broade 5th"claims as ashistoric

Hi Brad & all his sceptic criticians, that do disagree with him,

Otto Bernhard Billeter from Zuerich/Switzerland

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/scalesdir.txt
"
billeter.scl 12 Organ well temperament of Otto Bernhard Billeter
billeter2.scl 12 Bernhard Billeter's Bach temperament (1977/79)
"
complained recently beyond the common usual objections against
Brad's hypothesis in in the Journal:

http://www.gdo.de/veroeffentlichungen/ars_organi/
"
Billeter, Bernhard: Zur "Wohltemperierten" Stimmung von Johann
Sebastian Bach. Wie hat Bach seine Cembali gestimmt?
Ars Organi #56, 2008, 18-21.
"
there on p.19
he found some more fault in Brad's wrong arguments:
..."
Wenn einige Franzosen des späten 17. und frühen 18. Jahrhunderts
Stimmanweisungen mit 2 großen Quinten schrieben,
dann nur, weil sie Marin Mersenne falsch verstanden hatten:
Mersenne gibt in seiner Stimm-Anweisung der mitteltönigen Stimmung
im TRAITE de l'HARMONIE UNIVERSELLE von 1627 an, die Quinten müssen
verkleinert werden "diminiue´e", im Notenbeispiel abgekürzt d;
nur bei 2 Quinten , die nach abwärts zu stimmen sind, nämlich F-B und
B-Es steht "f" für "forte". Das meint zweifelsfrei eine verkleinerte
Quinte, also mit erhöhtem unteren Ton, wurde aber von Jean Denis 1643
und seinen Nachfolgern falsch interpretiert. Solche Stimmungen reichen
bis zum jungen Rameau, der sie hingegen bald aufgab zugunsten der
gleichstufigen Stimmung, weil er in der vorher gebrauchten nicht in
allen Tonarten spielen konnte. Außer bei den Franzosen gibt es kaum
eine Stimmanweisung mit zu großen Quinten; ja aus dem Umkreis von Bach
finden wir sogar die Warnung vor ihnen bei Georg Andreas Sorge, der
1747 im gleichen Jahr wie Bach, der Mizerschen Sozietät beigetreten war."
tr:
'If some french authors of the late 17th- and early 18th-century
wrote tuning-instructions with 2 wide 5ths, then only,
because they had (completely) misunderstood Marin Mersenne:
Mersenne demands in his "TRAITE de l'HARMONIE UNIVERSELLE(1627)"
instructions for mean-tone:
The 5ths must be 'diminished" as
referred in his score at example 'd';
There Rameau labeled only 2 of that 5ths,
-that both have to be tuned downwards-
with "f": that represents "forte".
Without any doubt that means:
for each of them are also downwards flattend 5ths,
due to the arised lower tone (in the quinte-interval).
But that was misinterpreted by Jean Denis in 1643
http://www.jstor.org/sici?sici=0027-4380(198803)2%3A44%3A3%3C467%3ATOHTBJ%3E2.0.CO%3B2-G
Such tunings were reported until the young Rameau, which abandoned
from that former one in foavour of ET, because in the earlier used
didn't allow him to play properly in all (12) keys.
Except in France there are hardly none other tuning-instructions
with such all to much wide-5ths.
In Bach's (closer) circle we find even an warning about them:
from Georg Andreas Sorge, who joined in 1747
-the same jear as Bach- Mizler's society."

as already mentioned too, in:
/tuning/topicId_71865.html#71930
"
#3.
Georg Andreas Sorge's
"tuning-instructions" Hamburg 1744 p.22
Schueler's Frage:
"Kann man nicht auch einige Quinten ueber sich schweben lassen?"
Lehrer Antwort:
"Ja, aber es ist ganz unnoetig..."

Tr:
Pupil's question:
'Can one also let some 5ths beat larger than pure?'
Teacher's reply:
'Yes, but it's wholly unnecesarry...'
"
....................................................
Not to mention J.S.Bachs rejection of wide 5ths in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Silbermann
's organs.

Quest:
Who in that group here does still belive in Bachs alleged wide 5ths?

Yours Sincerly
A.S.

Hat der Herr Billeter aber eigentlich was bestimmtes zu sagen ueber
dieses Thema? Und zwar wie antwortet er die Frage, die im Titel steht?

(Does Mr. Billeter actually answer the question that he asks in his
title, or say anything constructive on the subject?)

Und warum soll man so eine Sache wie Bachs Cembali in 'Ars Organi'
handeln?
(And why is he talking about Bach's harpsichords in a journal that is
devoted to organs?)
~~~T~~~

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Sparschuh" <a_sparschuh@...>
wrote:
>
> http://www.gdo.de/veroeffentlichungen/ars_organi/
> "
> Billeter, Bernhard: Zur "Wohltemperierten" Stimmung von Johann
> Sebastian Bach. Wie hat Bach seine Cembali gestimmt?
> Ars Organi #56, 2008, 18-21.
>

"Solche Stimmungen reichen
bis zum jungen Rameau, der sie hingegen bald aufgab zugunsten der
gleichstufigen Stimmung, weil er in der vorher gebrauchten nicht in
allen Tonarten spielen konnte. Außer bei den Franzosen gibt es kaum
eine Stimmanweisung mit zu großen Quinten (...)"

trans.:
"Such tunings [with wide fifths] extend through to the young Rameau,
who however soon gave them up in favour of equal temperament (...).
Except with the French, there are hardly any tuning instructions with
wide fifths (...)"

What rubbish Billeter has written. Rameau was 2 years older than Bach,
he described a version of 'temperament ordinaire' with 4 or 5 wide
fifths in 1726 when he was 43 years old
http://harpsichords.pbwiki.com/Rameau_Ordinaire

and didn't start promoting equal temperament until the 1730's, when he
was in his 50's. And even after that, many people still continued to
consider the 'temperament ordinaire' as useful or even superior.

Billeter should also know that Chaumont (1695) explicitly described
that Bb-F and Eb-Bb could be either narrow or wide, and preferred that
they be wide. His wide fifths weren't any sort of 'mistake'...

Werckmeister's continuo tuning of 1698 clearly includes two or more
wide fifths:

"(...) Da denn das dis' von
dem gis ein klein wenig über sich schweben kan / damit es zu dem h als
eine Tertia major, und zu dem g' als Tertia Major erleidlich
consonire. Zu dem dis' wird die Octava dis wieder rein gestimmet;
Auf dieses dis kan nun wider die Quinta b gestimmet werden / welches
auch ein gar wenig über sich schweben kan / damit das d' als die darzu
gehörige Tertia erleidlich werde. Zu dem b kan die Quinta f' gezogen
werden / wieder ein wenig über sich schwebend / oder gar rein (...)"

Now as a general principle I think people should refrain from claiming
that they know what Bach did or didn't do, based on sources that are
at best ambiguous or at worst quite irrelevant. That would cut a lot
of ways, wouldn't it?
~~~T~~~

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Sparschuh" <a_sparschuh@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Brad & all his sceptic criticians, that do disagree with him,
>
> Otto Bernhard Billeter from Zuerich/Switzerland
>
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/scalesdir.txt
> "
> billeter.scl 12 Organ well temperament of Otto Bernhard Billeter
> billeter2.scl 12 Bernhard Billeter's Bach temperament (1977/79)
> "
> complained recently beyond the common usual objections against
> Brad's hypothesis in in the Journal:
>
> http://www.gdo.de/veroeffentlichungen/ars_organi/
> "
> Billeter, Bernhard: Zur "Wohltemperierten" Stimmung von Johann
> Sebastian Bach. Wie hat Bach seine Cembali gestimmt?
> Ars Organi #56, 2008, 18-21.
> "
> there on p.19
> he found some more fault in Brad's wrong arguments:
> ..."
> Wenn einige Franzosen des späten 17. und frühen 18. Jahrhunderts
> Stimmanweisungen mit 2 großen Quinten schrieben,
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@...> wrote/asked:
>
>
> Does Mr. Billeter actually answer the question that he asks in his
> title, or say anything constructive on the subject?)
>
about
> >
> > http://www.gdo.de/veroeffentlichungen/ars_organi/
> > "
> > Billeter, Bernhard: Zur "Wohltemperierten" Stimmung von Johann
> > Sebastian Bach. Wie hat Bach seine Cembali gestimmt?
> > Ars Organi #56, 2008, 18-21.
> >
>
Dear Tom,

there on on p.21 appear 5 versions of further alleged "Bach"-tunings:

#1. Alterated Kirnberger III
#2. Modfied Kirnberger III
#3. Lehman
#4. as #3, but with more favourable values
#5. shift #4 clockwise by an 5th

here are the corresponding files in 1/24PC or ~ in Cents approx.:

----------------------------------------------------------------

!Billeter1_AltK3.scl
!
Ab 0 Eb 0 Bb 0 F 0 C -4.5 G -4.5 D -4.5 A -4.5 E 0 B -4 F# -2 C# 0 G#
12
!
90
195
294
390
498
590
697.5
792
892.5
996
1092
2/1
!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

!Billter2_ModK3.scl
!
Ab 0 Eb -2 Bb 0 F 0 C -4 G -5 D -4 A -5 E 0 B 0 F# 0 C# -2 G#
12
!
92
195
296
390
498
590
698
792
893
996
1094
2/1
!

----------------------------------------------------------------

!Billeter3_Lehman.scl
!
Ab -2 Eb -2 Bb +2 F -4 C -4 G -4 D -4 A -4 E -4 B 0 F# 0 C# -2 G#
12
!
98
196
298
392
502
596
698
798
894
998
1094
2/1
!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

!Billter4_as3more_favourable.scl
!
Ab -1 Eb -1 Bb 0 F -3.5 C -4 G -4 D -4 A -4.5 E 0 B 0 F# 0 C# -2 G#
12
!
97.5
196
298.5
391.5
501.5
595.5
700
797.5
894
999.5
1093.5
2/1
!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

!Billeter5_shift3by_an5th.scl
!
Ab -2 Eb -1 Bb -1 F 0 C -3.5 G -4 D -4 A -4 E -4.5 B 0 F# 0 C# 0 G#
12
!
94
196.5
296
392.5
498
592
698.5
798.5
894.5
998
1093
2/1
!

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I hope that values are correct.

Alternative:
http://www.wegscheider-orgel.de/html/artikel.php?filename=artikel.php&tabname=Artikel&sz=22&Unterpunkt=H.C.%A0Snerha%A0und%A0die%A0Bachstimmung

!Wegscheider_Bach_Snerha.scl
!
http://www.wegscheider-orgel.de/html/artikel.php?filename=artikel.php&tabname=Artikel&sz=0
12
!
92
192.8
296.2
388.4
500.1
590.1
697.3
794
890.6
998.2
1088.1
2/1
!

attend there inbetween G# and Eb the correct placed wide 5th of factor
1,5002362... or ~702,2276...Cents

hi Brad,
could you please record them also into yours famous
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/bachtemps.html
too,
in order to keep that list more actual than now:

"Bernhard Billeter in his book Anweisung zum Stimmen von
Tasteninstrumenten in verschiedenen Temperaturen (Merseburger, 1979),
pp30-31 and in his Anhang, presented a conjectural temperament of his
own. In structure its pattern resembles "Kirnberger 2" with most of
the tempering going into the fifths D-A-E. Billeter tied his layout
back to his conjectures about a Gottfried Silbermann temperament,
presented in this same book. Instead of Kirnberger's 1/2 SC into D-A-E
each, Billeter used 1/3 SC. The remainder is spread among the fifths
on either side: F-C-G-D and E-B-F#.
"

Yours Sincerely
A.S.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Sparschuh" <a_sparschuh@...>
wrote:
> > > Billeter, Bernhard: Zur "Wohltemperierten" Stimmung von Johann
> > > Sebastian Bach. Wie hat Bach seine Cembali gestimmt?
> > > Ars Organi #56, 2008, 18-21.

I just received my own copy of the article this afternoon, by
Interlibrary Loan. Comments below....

>
> #1. Alterated Kirnberger III
> #2. Modfied Kirnberger III
> #3. Lehman
> #4. as #3, but with more favourable values
> #5. shift #4 clockwise by an 5th
>
> here are the corresponding files in 1/24PC or ~ in Cents approx.:
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> !Billeter1_AltK3.scl
> !
> Ab 0 Eb 0 Bb 0 F 0 C -4.5 G -4.5 D -4.5 A -4.5 E 0 B -4 F# -2 C# 0 G#

That line agrees with Billeter's first column.

>
> !Billter2_ModK3.scl
> !
> Ab 0 Eb -2 Bb 0 F 0 C -4 G -5 D -4 A -5 E 0 B 0 F# 0 C# -2 G#

That's not what Billeter gives in his second column. He has a -4
between B and F#, and a 0 between C# and G#.

>
> !Billeter3_Lehman.scl
> !
> Ab -2 Eb -2 Bb +2 F -4 C -4 G -4 D -4 A -4 E -4 B 0 F# 0 C# -2 G#

Wrong again. Billeter's third column doesn't have that wrong -4
between E and B; it correctly has 0.

>
> !Billter4_as3more_favourable.scl
> !
> Ab -1 Eb -1 Bb 0 F -3.5 C -4 G -4 D -4 A -4.5 E 0 B 0 F# 0 C# -2 G#

That agrees with Billeter's fourth column.

>
> !Billeter5_shift3by_an5th.scl
> !
> Ab -2 Eb -1 Bb -1 F 0 C -3.5 G -4 D -4 A -4 E -4.5 B 0 F# 0 C# 0 G#

That agrees with his fifth column.

> Alternative:
>
http://www.wegscheider-orgel.de/html/artikel.php?filename=artikel.php&tabname=Artikel&sz=22&Unterpunkt=H.C.%A0Snerha%A0und%A0die%A0Bachstimmung
>
> !Wegscheider_Bach_Snerha.scl
> !
>

To be clear: this Wegscheider temperament *is not* part of Billeter's
article. It's a *joke* temperament by Wegscheider, as "Snerha" is a
fictional character. His article is from a Festschrift for the
musicologist Ahrens, years ago; note the backward spelling of Ahrens
as Snerha.

> hi Brad,
> could you please record them also into yours famous
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/bachtemps.html
> too, in order to keep that list more actual than now:

I will certainly add something about this new Billeter article there,
once I have had opportunity to read it properly.

Brad Lehman