Math/tuning/spirituality

Just an observation...I am not trying to start a thread about this, but wanted to make a comment. Many, if not most, of the discussions here about tuning theory concern the mathematics involved in constructing the systems, and the intricacies of decimal points. From my studies of tuning concepts in different cultures, I am struck by how Arabic, Indian, Chinese, Greek (especially Pythagoras), and most other cultures relate tuning theory to spiritual ideas and concepts. Numbers were always symbolic of larger and deeper Universal structures, and tunings were much more than just arrangements of notes. And of course, music itself was thought to have a deep Universal connection as well. I think something profound is lost when those elements are removed from tuning/music. None of those earlier cultures separated the math from the spiritual, not one. And today, those sorts of ideas are rarely, if ever, discussed concerning music or tuning systems. Something has changed, and, I feel, not for the better...best...Hstick

microstick.net myspace.com/microstick

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <microstick@...> wrote:
>
> Just an observation...I am not trying to start a thread about
this, but wanted to make a comment. Many, if not most, of the
discussions here about tuning theory concern the mathematics
involved in constructing the systems, and the intricacies of decimal
points. From my studies of tuning concepts in different cultures, I
am struck by how Arabic, Indian, Chinese, Greek (especially
Pythagoras), and most other cultures relate tuning theory to
spiritual ideas and concepts. Numbers were always symbolic of larger
and deeper Universal structures, and tunings were much more than
just arrangements of notes. And of course, music itself was thought
to have a deep Universal connection as well. I think something
profound is lost when those elements are removed from tuning/music.
None of those earlier cultures separated the math from the
spiritual, not one. And today, those sorts of ideas are rarely, if
ever, discussed concerning music or tuning systems. Something has
changed, and, I feel, not for the better...best...Hstick
>
> microstick.net myspace.com/microstick

Hmm, yahoo seems to have lost my initial response, but here it goes
again: is there some connection between the group being right in the
middle of a spiritual discussion related to tuning and your posting
of this?

Google for example, "ein sof" or "ein sof infinity", and check out
the mathmetician already mentioned in the discussion, Cantor, as well.

It should be immediately obvious that the idea of greater and lesser
infinities originates, or was at least long ago couched in terms of,
the nature of God (God without beginning, God without end). "The"
infinity must be both without beginning or end, etc.

Whether theology is poetic physics, or physics poetic theology, the
discussions haven't really changed. In the Northern Lights/Subtle
Knife "children's" books (which are awesome) the science of physics
in a universe closely paralleling ours is called "Experimental
Theology". LOL.

-Cameron Bobro

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <microstick@...> wrote:
>
> Just an observation...I am not trying to start a thread about
this, but wanted to make a comment. Many, if not most, of the
discussions here about tuning theory concern the mathematics
involved in constructing the systems, and the intricacies of decimal
points. From my studies of tuning concepts in different cultures, I
am struck by how Arabic, Indian, Chinese, Greek (especially
Pythagoras), and most other cultures relate tuning theory to
spiritual ideas and concepts. Numbers were always symbolic of larger
and deeper Universal structures, and tunings were much more than
just arrangements of notes. And of course, music itself was thought
to have a deep Universal connection as well. I think something
profound is lost when those elements are removed from tuning/music.
None of those earlier cultures separated the math from the
spiritual, not one. And today, those sorts of ideas are rarely, if
ever, discussed concerning music or tuning systems. Something has
changed, and, I feel, not for the better...best...Hstick
>
> microstick.net myspace.com/microstick

Hmm, yahoo seems to have lost my initial response, but here it goes
again: is there some connection between the group being right in the
middle of a spiritual discussion related to tuning and your posting
of this?

Google for example, "ein sof" or "ein sof infinity", and check out
the mathmetician already mentioned in the discussion, Cantor, as well.

It should be immediately obvious that the idea of greater and lesser
infinities originates, or was at least long ago couched in terms of,
the nature of God (God without beginning, God without end). "The"
infinity must be both without beginning or end, etc.

Whether theology is poetic physics, or physics poetic theology, the
discussions haven't really changed. In the Northern Lights/Subtle
Knife "children's" books (which are awesome) the science of physics
in a universe closely paralleling ours is called "Experimental
Theology". LOL.

-Cameron Bobro

It is unfortunate our culture lacks the language to get at these intervals outside the way we do. A 13 year old Vietnamese girl can find some very complex ones by just going for the emotional description. Much less the idea of tunings to please the gods or to attract their favor in our musical enterprises. Every musical act should be a ritual and never have i heard much concern with such things as 'flow'.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

microstick@... wrote:
>
> Just an observation...I am not trying to start a thread about this, > but wanted to make a comment. Many, if not most, of the discussions > here about tuning theory concern the mathematics involved in > constructing the systems, and the intricacies of decimal points. From > my studies of tuning concepts in different cultures, I am struck by > how Arabic, Indian, Chinese, Greek (especially Pythagoras), and most > other cultures relate tuning theory to spiritual ideas and concepts. > Numbers were always symbolic of larger and deeper Universal > structures, and tunings were much more than just arrangements of > notes. And of course, music itself was thought to have a deep > Universal connection as well. I think something profound is lost when > those elements are removed from tuning/music. None of those earlier > cultures separated the math from the spiritual, not one. And today, > those sorts of ideas are rarely, if ever, discussed concerning music > or tuning systems. Something has changed, and, I feel, not for the > better...best...Hstick
> > microstick.net myspace.com/microstick
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Cameron Bobro" <misterbobro@...> wrote:

> Whether theology is poetic physics, or physics poetic theology, the
> discussions haven't really changed. In the Northern Lights/Subtle
> Knife "children's" books (which are awesome) the science of physics
> in a universe closely paralleling ours is called "Experimental
> Theology". LOL.
>
> -Cameron Bobro
>

That's how it started on this planet too, as Carl Sagan points out in
his book "The Varieties of Scientific Experience".

But when the churches found that the experimental results disagreed
with their books and pronouncements-from-authority, they built a wall
to keep the experimentalists out. The burning at the stake of the
former monk Giordano Bruno and the threatening of torture and house
arrest of Galileo Galilei being the best known examples of where it
all started to go wrong in the west.

Sagn's book title is of course a reference to William James' "The
Varieties of Religious Experience" and was delivered as one of the
same historic annual lecture series, the Gifford Lectures in "Natural
Theology".

-- Dave Keenan

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Dave Keenan wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Cameron Bobro" <misterbobro@...> wrote:
> >> Whether theology is poetic physics, or physics poetic theology, the >> discussions haven't really changed. In the Northern Lights/Subtle >> Knife "children's" books (which are awesome) the science of physics >> in a universe closely paralleling ours is called "Experimental >> Theology". LOL. >>
>> -Cameron Bobro
>>
> > That's how it started on this planet too, as Carl Sagan points out in
> his book "The Varieties of Scientific Experience". > > But when the churches found that the experimental results disagreed
> with their books and pronouncements-from-authority, they built a wall
> to keep the experimentalists out. The burning at the stake of the
> former monk Giordano Bruno and the threatening of torture and house
> arrest of Galileo Galilei being the best known examples of where it
> all started to go wrong in the west.
> > Sagn's book title is of course a reference to William James' "The
> Varieties of Religious Experience" and was delivered as one of the
> same historic annual lecture series, the Gifford Lectures in "Natural
> Theology". Sounds like an interesting book; I'll have to check it out. One thing this whole discussion brings to mind is Douglas Hofstadter's book _G�del, Escher, Bach: The Eternal Golden Braid_. The book covers a range of seemingly disparate topics, but it somehow manages to hold it all together. The topic of G�del's incompleteness theorem does come up, but there is also discussion of Bach's music and Escher's unique style of art.

One of the things that Hofstadter comes up with is the idea of playing more than one piece of music from the same score. In one of the dialogues there's a pair of record players that produce a different piece of music from the same record: one of them plays a variation on the theme B-A-C-H, and the other one changes all the notes around so that it plays variations on the theme C-A-G-E. I'm sure I must have had that in mind when I did the Warped Canon page. I wonder what he'd think of mavila, swapping major for minor and minor for major?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <microstick@...> wrote:
>
> Just an observation...I am not trying to start a thread about
this, but wanted to make a comment. Many, if not most, of the
discussions here about tuning theory concern the mathematics involved
in constructing the systems, and the intricacies of decimal points.
From my studies of tuning concepts in different cultures, I am struck
by how Arabic, Indian, Chinese, Greek (especially Pythagoras), and
most other cultures relate tuning theory to spiritual ideas and
concepts. Numbers were always symbolic of larger and deeper Universal
structures, and tunings were much more than just arrangements of
notes. And of course, music itself was thought to have a deep
Universal connection as well. I think something profound is lost when
those elements are removed from tuning/music. None of those earlier
cultures separated the math from the spiritual, not one. And today,
those sorts of ideas are rarely, if ever, discussed concerning music
or tuning systems. Something has changed, and, I feel, not for the
better...best...Hstick
>
> microstick.net myspace.com/microstick
>
Ah, reply via web post means exactly that! Amazing. Was just saying to
microstick (is that your real name?) that the ancient Greek Harmonia
meant unity between spirit and nature, political stability,
mathematical order and logic, personal responsibility, and that this
was all seen to be encoded in musical tunings. Wasn't it Kronecker,
Cantors teacher/critic, who said that God created the natural numbers,
mankind created the rest? Still, Cantors proofs seem much more
spiritual to me than Betty and Jim arithmetic.