Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Spectralism

David Beardsley wrote:
> Any thoughts on what it is?
>
> I've read descriptions of using spectral analysis and then using
> harmonics for tuning and composition. I also see composers using
> the harmonic series as inspiration, but tuning the piece in 24 or 48 tet.
I'll rephrase that:

What is Spectralism?

I've read descriptions of doing spectral analysis on a sound and then using
the harmonics from the analysis for tuning and composition. I also see composers using
those harmonic series as inspiration, but tuning the piece in 24 or 48 tet.

--
* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com

🔗Klaus Schmirler <KSchmir@...>

David Beardsley schrieb:
> David Beardsley wrote:
>> Any thoughts on what it is?
>>
>> I've read descriptions of using spectral analysis and then using
>> harmonics for tuning and composition. I also see composers using
>> the harmonic series as inspiration, but tuning the piece in 24 or 48 tet.
> I'll rephrase that:
> > What is Spectralism?
> > I've read descriptions of doing spectral analysis on a sound and then using
> the harmonics from the analysis for tuning and composition. I also see > composers using
> those harmonic series as inspiration, but tuning the piece in 24 or 48 tet.
> > Actually, the English Wikipedia article is very informative (but I'm just talking as someone who'd like to learn more the easy way). It does not explain how timbre turns into form. My listening experience (which dates from the years when I hadn't yet heard of the therm "spectral music") tells me that morphing has something to do with it. But I'm wondering whether taking actual spectra as a model isn't a totally artificial restriction - but then this is a strong motive to introduce microtones, as opposed to eg Pousseurs vertical orderings, which exist strictly within the universe of 12 tones.

In European classical circles, anything except binary divisions of 100 Cent intervals seems unthinkable. 96-et seems fairly common, too.

klaus

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Some of it was just done in 12 et. Some of it is interesting, but coming at it from our neck of the woods it seems a bit naive and simplistic.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

David Beardsley wrote:
>
> David Beardsley wrote:
> > Any thoughts on what it is?
> >
> > I've read descriptions of using spectral analysis and then using
> > harmonics for tuning and composition. I also see composers using
> > the harmonic series as inspiration, but tuning the piece in 24 or 48 > tet.
> I'll rephrase that:
>
> What is Spectralism?
>
> I've read descriptions of doing spectral analysis on a sound and then > using
> the harmonics from the analysis for tuning and composition. I also see
> composers using
> those harmonic series as inspiration, but tuning the piece in 24 or 48 > tet.
>
> -- > * David Beardsley
> * http://biink.com <http://biink.com>
>
>

🔗Carlo Serafini <carlo@...>

I quote Kyle Gann:
"Of course, American microtonal composers have been basing harmonies on the overtone
series too, since Harry Partch dabbled with it in 1928, but they never came up with a great
PR term like spectral music. Say itit sounds so impressive: spectral music.

http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0418,gann,53192,22.html

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@...> wrote:
>
> Any thoughts on what it is?
>
> I've read descriptions of using spectral analysis and then using
> harmonics for tuning and composition. I also see composers using
> the harmonic series as inspiration, but tuning the piece in 24 or 48 tet.
>
>
> --
> * David Beardsley
> * http://biink.com
>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

Klaus Schmirler wrote:
> David Beardsley schrieb:
> >> David Beardsley wrote:
>> >>> Any thoughts on what it is?
>>>
>>> I've read descriptions of using spectral analysis and then using
>>> harmonics for tuning and composition. I also see composers using
>>> the harmonic series as inspiration, but tuning the piece in 24 or 48 tet.
>>> >> I'll rephrase that:
>>
>> What is Spectralism?
>>
>> I've read descriptions of doing spectral analysis on a sound and then using
>> the harmonics from the analysis for tuning and composition. I also see >> composers using
>> those harmonic series as inspiration, but tuning the piece in 24 or 48 tet.
>>
>>
>> >
> Actually, the English Wikipedia article is very informative > (but I'm just talking as someone who'd like to learn more > the easy way). It's...ok.

>
> In European classical circles, anything except binary > divisions of 100 Cent intervals seems unthinkable. 96-et > seems fairly common, too.
I guess that explains the fixation on equal temperaments in a movement based on the harmonic series.

Maybe not.

--
* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

🔗robert thomas martin <robertthomasmartin@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@...> wrote:
>
> Klaus Schmirler wrote:
> > David Beardsley schrieb:
> >
> >> David Beardsley wrote:
> >>
> >>> Any thoughts on what it is?
> >>>
> >>> I've read descriptions of using spectral analysis and then using
> >>> harmonics for tuning and composition. I also see composers using
> >>> the harmonic series as inspiration, but tuning the piece in 24
or 48 tet.
> >>>
> >> I'll rephrase that:
> >>
> >> What is Spectralism?
> >>
> >> I've read descriptions of doing spectral analysis on a sound and
then using
> >> the harmonics from the analysis for tuning and composition. I
also see
> >> composers using
> >> those harmonic series as inspiration, but tuning the piece in 24
or 48 tet.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Actually, the English Wikipedia article is very informative
> > (but I'm just talking as someone who'd like to learn more
> > the easy way).
>
> It's...ok.
>
> >
> > In European classical circles, anything except binary
> > divisions of 100 Cent intervals seems unthinkable. 96-et
> > seems fairly common, too.
> I guess that explains the fixation on equal temperaments in a
movement
> based on the harmonic series.
>
> Maybe not.
>
> --
> * David Beardsley
> * http://biink.com

From Robert. Try the 128 partials of the harmonic series if you
want to experiment. The ratios from 128/128 to 160/128 to 192/128 to
224/128 to 256/128 and all the ratios in between can be converted to
cents and then manipulated in all sorts of different ways which are
only limited by the human imagination.

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

Carlo Serafini wrote:
> I quote Kyle Gann:
> "Of course, American microtonal composers have been basing harmonies on the overtone > series too, since Harry Partch dabbled with it in 1928, but they never came up with a great > PR term like spectral music. Say itï¿½it sounds so impressive: spectral music.
>
> http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0418,gann,53192,22.html
> Hmm...Kyle includes Partch.

discussion:
http://ihatemusic.noquam.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=0

--
* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

David Beardsley wrote:
> Klaus Schmirler wrote:

>> In European classical circles, anything except binary >> divisions of 100 Cent intervals seems unthinkable. 96-et >> seems fairly common, too.
> I guess that explains the fixation on equal temperaments in a movement > based on the harmonic series.
> > Maybe not.

I've never heard of spectralists being fixated on any temperament. They write using "quartertones" which is a different thing.

Graham

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

Graham Breed wrote:
> David Beardsley wrote:
> >> Klaus Schmirler wrote:
>> >
> >>> In European classical circles, anything except binary >>> divisions of 100 Cent intervals seems unthinkable. 96-et >>> seems fairly common, too.
>>> >> I guess that explains the fixation on equal temperaments in a movement >> based on the harmonic series.
>>
>> Maybe not.
>> >
> I've never heard of spectralists being fixated on any > temperament. They write using "quartertones" which is a > different thing.

Mysteriously enough, that's called 24 tone equal temperament.

--
* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

🔗threesixesinarow <CACCOLA@...>

> Graham Breed wrote:
>
> > I've never heard of spectralists being fixated on any
> > temperament. They write using "quartertones" which is a
> > different thing.

David Beardsley <db@...> wrote:
>
> Mysteriously enough, that's called 24 tone equal temperament.
>

I remember reading otherwise in a book or paper about tuning
but Max Meyer seems to have used quartertone music to mean
what some people call microtonal music. In §3 - Quartertone-
music, p.207 from "Experimental Studies in the Psychology of
Music" starting p.192 in the July-October 1903 Commemorative
Number of The American Journal of Psychology published by
Louis N. Wilson in Worcester, MA, it says:

"By 'quartertone-music' I do not mean music which strictly
speaking is made up of quartertones; but any music which
contains intervals considerably smaller than a semitone. Such
small intervals are usually called quartertones."

http://books.google.com/books?id=ikEMAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PA207

Clark

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

threesixesinarow wrote:
> In ï¿½3 - Quartertone-
> music, p.207 from "Experimental Studies in the Psychology of > Music" starting p.192 in the July-October 1903 Commemorative > Number of The American Journal of Psychology published by > Louis N. Wilson in Worcester, MA, it says:
>
> "By 'quartertone-music' I do not mean music which strictly > speaking is made up of quartertones; but any music which > contains intervals considerably smaller than a semitone. Such > small intervals are usually called quartertones."

Maybe some day I'll get a chance to look at scores and find out what
those darned Spectalists are really doing with their microtones.

--
* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@...>

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1990545/Man-held-by-police-over-andpound5-parking-ticket.html

It looks as though it will also make the BBC One TV London News as I have spent most of this morning being shot for it;-)

Charles Lucy
lucy@...

- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -

for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com

For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

🔗battaglia01 <battaglia01@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:
>
> David Beardsley wrote:
> > Graham Breed wrote:
> >> David Beardsley wrote:
> >>
> >>> Graham Breed wrote:
> >>>
> >>
> >>>> I've never heard of spectralists being fixated on any
> >>>> temperament. They write using "quartertones" which is a
> >>>> different thing.
> >>>>
> >>> Mysteriously enough, that's called 24 tone equal temperament.
> >>>
> >> Citation?
> >
> > Joking?
>
> No.
>
>
> Graham
>
That's just how the math works. If by quarter tones you mean that they
use notes that are exactly halfway between the notes of standard 12 et
temperament, then there would be exactly 12 new notes in the scale,
all evenly spaced, hence 24-et.

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

Horatiu Radulescu is the composer who interested me in Spectralism.
Inner Time II for an ensemble of clarinets tuned to a section of the
harmonic series. Because of this and his other work, I was under the
impression that all spectralism was in some way microtonal, but I'm
finding out that's not the case.

Spectralism seems to be a slippery term any way.

Xenakias and Stockhausen have been mentioned as being Spectral composers or being an influence on spectral composers.

--
* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

I guess none of them heard of Varese, who based much on Helmholtz.
Quite amazing what he did with 12 ET. Allot happens in the room when you hear it live.
likewise Scelsi

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

David Beardsley wrote:
>
> Horatiu Radulescu is the composer who interested me in Spectralism.
> Inner Time II for an ensemble of clarinets tuned to a section of the
> harmonic series. Because of this and his other work, I was under the
> impression that all spectralism was in some way microtonal, but I'm
> finding out that's not the case.
>
> Spectralism seems to be a slippery term any way.
>
> Xenakias and Stockhausen have been mentioned as being Spectral composers
> or being an influence on spectral composers.
>
> -- > * David Beardsley
> * http://biink.com <http://biink.com>
>
>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

David Beardsley wrote:

>> Xenakis and Stockhausen have been mentioned as being Spectral composers
>> or being an influence on spectral composers.
>> Kraig Grady wrote:
> I guess none of them heard of Varese, who based much on Helmholtz.
> Quite amazing what he did with 12 ET. Allot happens in the room when you > hear it live.
> likewise Scelsi
> Varese and Scelsi also get mentioned. Xenakis and Stockhausen were only
two I happened to think of at the time.

--
* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

I guess you had to play the harmonic series out of tune to be included:)

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

David Beardsley wrote:
>
>
> David Beardsley wrote:
>
> >> Xenakis and Stockhausen have been mentioned as being Spectral composers
> >> or being an influence on spectral composers.
> >>
>
> Kraig Grady wrote:
> > I guess none of them heard of Varese, who based much on Helmholtz.
> > Quite amazing what he did with 12 ET. Allot happens in the room when > you
> > hear it live.
> > likewise Scelsi
> >
> Varese and Scelsi also get mentioned. Xenakis and Stockhausen were only
> two I happened to think of at the time.
>
> -- > * David Beardsley
> * http://biink.com <http://biink.com>
>
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

David!
if you find a good link representing Horatiu Radulescu, please post
i keep finding only piano music

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> I guess you had to play the harmonic series out of tune to be included:)
>
> /^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/ > <http://anaphoria.com/>>
>
> _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/ > <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
> David Beardsley wrote:
> >
> >
> > David Beardsley wrote:
> >
> > >> Xenakis and Stockhausen have been mentioned as being Spectral > composers
> > >> or being an influence on spectral composers.
> > >>
> >
> > Kraig Grady wrote:
> > > I guess none of them heard of Varese, who based much on Helmholtz.
> > > Quite amazing what he did with 12 ET. Allot happens in the room when
> > you
> > > hear it live.
> > > likewise Scelsi
> > >
> > Varese and Scelsi also get mentioned. Xenakis and Stockhausen were only
> > two I happened to think of at the time.
> >
> > --
> > * David Beardsley
> > * http://biink.com <http://biink.com> <http://biink.com > <http://biink.com>>
> >
> >
>
>

🔗harmonics7111317 <db@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> David!
> if you find a good link representing Horatiu Radulescu, please post
> i keep finding only piano music

maybe this can help?

"official" web page:
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/uytarokh/horatiuradulescu.htm?f=fs

wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hora%C5%A3iu_R%C4%83dulescu

Forced Exposure:
https://www.forcedexposure.com/artists/radulescu.horatiu.html

--
* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

battaglia01 wrote:

> That's just how the math works. If by quarter tones you mean that they
> use notes that are exactly halfway between the notes of standard 12 et
> temperament, then there would be exactly 12 new notes in the scale,
> all evenly spaced, hence 24-et.

Right, so that's obviously not what I meant by "quarter tones" is it? I suspect it's not what a typical spectralist composer would mean either but I don't have a tame one to put the question to.

Characteristically spectralist pieces are written for orchestras. Orchestras do not start out playing in equal temperament. Adding new notes does not magically bring the orchestra into any temperament. Some European quartertonalists -- spectralists I'm sure among them -- understand this perfectly well. One comment in one of the blogs linked to in this thread says so explicitly:

"Sure, but for the Grisey pieces (for example), quarter-tone notation was used for pragmatic reasons. ... The hope is that the players' inner pitch sense will naturally adjust to just intervals, as they attempt to play quarter-tones that sound in tune."

http://ihatemusic.noquam.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=0

For more on quarter-tone intonation in general, try the article by Donald Bousted at either of these locations:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/english/thirtyone.html

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/title~content=g713455440~db=all

I haven't read it myself of course :P But I did see a related presentation so I know what he was up to. A brief summary is that observed intonation differs *drastically* from 24-et.

Graham

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i guess one could call this be ambiguous and pray notation.
i notice that Phil Niblock attempted a 72 tone intonation for a string piece.
with so many people it doesn't seem to rely on such methods is a good idea

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Graham Breed wrote:
>
> battaglia01 wrote:
>
> > That's just how the math works. If by quarter tones you mean that they
> > use notes that are exactly halfway between the notes of standard 12 et
> > temperament, then there would be exactly 12 new notes in the scale,
> > all evenly spaced, hence 24-et.
>
> Right, so that's obviously not what I meant by "quarter
> tones" is it? I suspect it's not what a typical spectralist
> composer would mean either but I don't have a tame one to
> put the question to.
>
> Characteristically spectralist pieces are written for
> orchestras. Orchestras do not start out playing in equal
> temperament. Adding new notes does not magically bring the
> orchestra into any temperament. Some European
> quartertonalists -- spectralists I'm sure among them --
> understand this perfectly well. One comment in one of the
> blogs linked to in this thread says so explicitly:
>
> "Sure, but for the Grisey pieces (for example), quarter-tone
> notation was used for pragmatic reasons. ... The hope is
> that the players' inner pitch sense will naturally adjust to
> just intervals, as they attempt to play quarter-tones that
> sound in tune."
>
> http://ihatemusic.noquam.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=0 > <http://ihatemusic.noquam.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=0>
>
> For more on quarter-tone intonation in general, try the
> article by Donald Bousted at either of these locations:
>
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/english/thirtyone.html > <http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Ehuygensf/english/thirtyone.html>
>
> http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/title~content=g713455440~db=all > <http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/title%7Econtent=g713455440%7Edb=all>
>
> I haven't read it myself of course :P But I did see a
> related presentation so I know what he was up to. A brief
> summary is that observed intonation differs *drastically*
> from 24-et.
>
> Graham
>
>

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf@...>

The term spectralism covers a diverse array of activity. It is not, in contrast to serialism, a body of techniques but rather indicates a focus on material. Broadly speaking it can be understood as a more contemporary manifestation of a long-term "timbre-harmony" project, which can trace roots largely in a largely French tradition: from the fundamental bass of Rameau, through Berlioz's focus on orchestration, to the harmonic and orchestration practices of the impressionists, and Boulez's chord-multiplication. But the sources are not only French: certain works of Stockhausen (Studie II; Gruppen; Carre; Sternklang), Xenakis, Radulescu, and Scelsi were very important, as well as the timbre analysis and synthesis techniques developed in institutions like IRCAM. I would also add Risset and Tenney as important figures for their work at Bell Labs.

A central compositional concern of the spectralists has been the translation of the analysed timbres of acoustic sources (instruments, voices, noises) into discrete events in orchestral scores, in which the metric of the translation is highly variable, both in terms of pitch precision and time. This means that while some composers will attempt a very accurate pitch mapping (notated in terms of cents, for example), others apply a pragmatic mapping onto 12tet or subdivisions of 12 into quartertones, eighthtones or twelfth tones. While some use the mapping to duplicate the analyzed sound with precision, others apply variation from a precise mapping as a compositional device in its own terms. In the temporal dimension, the evolution of a single source sound over a period of seconds may be expanded in the mapping to several minutes or over the length of an entire movement or work. (The influence of Scelsi is frequently apparent in such cases).

Daniel Wolf

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

🔗Afmmjr@...

Hi David,

My take on spectralism is that it is mainly a French phenomenon based on
acoustical ephemera.
The actual scale could be 12-tET, a stretched ET with sharp octaves, or
equal tempered quartertones. However, the timbral overlay, the spectral, is an
enhancement on the scale. It can be done acoustically, as with darker and
brighter indications, or electronically.

Each of the different spectral-related composers mentioned has a different
spin on its usage. Scelsi was a minimilist. Murail can use finer theoretical
divisions of pitch as an reference ideal all the while in quartertone
notation.

This is timbral microtonality.

best, Johnny

Re: [tuning] Re: Spectralism

Graham Breed wrote:
> Right, so that's obviously not what I meant by "quarter
> tones" is it?

That's nice, but it doesn't answer my question. What is Spectralism?

--
* David Beardsley
* _http://biink.com_ (http://biink.com/)

**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

Afmmjr@... wrote:
> Hi David,
> > My take on spectralism is that it is mainly a French phenomenon based > on acoustical ephemera.
> The actual scale could be 12-tET, a stretched ET with sharp octaves, > or equal tempered quartertones. However, the timbral overlay, the > spectral, is an enhancement on the scale. It can be done > acoustically, as with darker and brighter indications, or electronically.
> > Each of the different spectral-related composers mentioned has a > different spin on its usage. Scelsi was a minimilist. Murail can use > finer theoretical divisions of pitch as an reference ideal all the > while in quartertone notation.
> > This is timbral microtonality.
> > best, Johnny

Thanks Johnny, that's great.

Folks: there's a primer article in the Nov. 2003 issue of the Wire.
I think I'll scan it and convert it to a PDF file this weekend.

--
* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com