Retuning mavila to meantone - just for fun

Hi once again.

I don't know if you have ever tried to retune some meantone-based music to mavila. This time, I decided to do the opposite -- to take the music which was originally intended for mavila and retune it to meantone. That's what I've done with the first half of the mavila piece I posted yesterday --- because I haven't recorded the secord half to a MIDI file. Anyway, I think the first half is enough to show the difference. While pieces retuned from meantone to mavila usually sounded cold or weird to me, I found mavila music retuned to meantone to sound either pretty "naive" like a nursery rhyme, either a bit like from China, or like some unexpectedly "sweet and pleasant" Baroque or romantic music; but never cold or unconvincing. If you want, you can take a listen here: http://download.yousendit.com/D07BF00A06C0BA90

Petr

PS: Herman and Robert, thanks for your pelog suggestions, that's just what I was looking for.

Yes Petr;

There is certainly a marked difference.

Now it sounds more like one of the oriental lullabies at:

http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Of course it depends upon how you assign the mavila pitches: i.e. to
which note in meantone.

Apologies to mavila tuners for my typo in previous posting:

"malvina," should have been typed as "mavila".

On 11 May 2008, at 15:56, Petr Pařízek wrote:

> Hi once again.
>
> I don't know if you have ever tried to retune some meantone-based
> music to
> mavila. This time, I decided to do the opposite -- to take the music
> which
> was originally intended for mavila and retune it to meantone. That's
> what
> I've done with the first half of the mavila piece I posted yesterday
> ---
> because I haven't recorded the secord half to a MIDI file. Anyway, I
> think
> the first half is enough to show the difference. While pieces
> retuned from
> meantone to mavila usually sounded cold or weird to me, I found
> mavila music
> retuned to meantone to sound either pretty "naive" like a nursery
> rhyme,
> either a bit like from China, or like some unexpectedly "sweet and
> pleasant"
> Baroque or romantic music; but never cold or unconvincing. If you
> want, you
> can take a listen here: http://download.yousendit.com/D07BF00A06C0BA90
>
> Petr
>
> PS: Herman and Robert, thanks for your pelog suggestions, that's
> just what I
> was looking for.
>

Charles Lucy
lucy@...

- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -

for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com

For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Charles wrote:

> Of course it depends upon how you assign the mavila pitches: i.e. to
> which note in meantone.

Well, as itself, mavila tempers out 135/128, which means the generator is a very narrow fourth -- so narrow that if you stack three of them, you don’t get a minor tenth but almost a major tenth. So you could actually convert mavila music to our regular notation systém with the difference that C-E-G sounds much more like a minor triad rather than major and C-Eb-G sounds much more like a major triad rather than minor. Basically, what I’ve done here is just change the size of the fourth from the 7th root of 25/3 to the 7th root of 192/25 (i.e. from 2/7-chroma mavila to 2/7-comma meantone). And that was the result.

BTW: I’ve listened to some of the lullabies and I have to say that Lucy-tuned acoustic guitars sound marvelous. Do you have any idea if, for example, flutes have ever been made in Lucy tuning as well? I’m not a guitarist, I play only keyboards and flutes.

Petr

I wrote:

> Well, as itself, mavila tempers out 135/128,
> which means the generator is a very narrow fourth
> -- so narrow that if you stack three of them,
> you don’t get a minor tenth but almost a major tenth.

First of all, I meant „wide“, of course.

And then, I think I should also have said that this makes F# lower (not higher) than F and Bb higher (not lower) than B.

Petr

Your way of think about the tunings and expressing them as integer
ratios is "odd" to me.

I conceptualise 135/128 as 92.179 cents

25/3 as 3 octaves above 1.041667 = 70.673 cents

and 192/25 as 2 octaves above 1129.3287cents

or 1200 - 1129.327 = 70.673 cents short of an octave.

using the Javascript ratio to cents converter at:

http://www.lucytune.com/new_to_lt/pitch_01.html

We have yet to customise or make any LucyTuned flutes, although we
have used sampled flutes and run them through Melodyne to change their
tuning.

Although I hear that there are all sorts of weird and wonderful
instruments which have been LucyTuned by "persons unknown" to me.

We experimented with many acoustic instruments and found that it was
possible to approximate many of the pitches by varying the embouchure,
and changing fingering on winds.

We have also retuning the metal reeds on harmonicas, and the kalimbas,
and some marimbas have been made.

I have also retuned many acoustic keyboard instruments over the years
including Rhodes, grand pianos, and harpsichords

If you use keyboards or midi you can now get free downloads of tuning
codes for the most popular DAW's from this page:

http://www.lucytune.com/midi_and_keyboard/pitch_bend.html

11 May 2008, at 17:47, Petr Pařízek wrote:

>
> Charles wrote:
>
>
>
> > Of course it depends upon how you assign the mavila pitches: i.e. to
> > which note in meantone.
>
>
>
> Well, as itself, mavila tempers out 135/128, which means the
> generator is a very narrow fourth -- so narrow that if you stack
> three of them, you don’t get a minor tenth but almost a major
> tenth. So you could actually convert mavila music to our regular
> notation systém with the difference that C-E-G sounds much more like
> a minor triad rather than major and C-Eb-G sounds much more like a
> major triad rather than minor. Basically, what I’ve done here is
> just change the size of the fourth from the 7th root of 25/3 to the
> 7th root of 192/25 (i.e. from 2/7-chroma mavila to 2/7-comma
> meantone). And that was the result.
>

>
>
> BTW: I’ve listened to some of the lullabies and I have to say that
> Lucy-tuned acoustic guitars sound marvelous. Do you have any idea
> if, for example, flutes have ever been made in Lucy tuning as well?
> I’m not a guitarist, I play only keyboards and flutes.
>
>
>
> Petr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Charles Lucy
lucy@lucytune.com

- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -

for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com

For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Charles wrote:

> Your way of think about the tunings and expressing them as integer ratios is "odd" to me.

When I want to precisely define the mapping of a temperament, I have to use either integer ratios or prime coordinates -- see this list: /tuning/topicId_71713.html#71722

> We experimented with many acoustic instruments and found that it was possible to approximate many of the pitches
> by varying the embouchure, and changing fingering on winds.

Something for passionate microtonalists to consider -- it would probably require the musician to practice for days but it’s definitely possible on long tones -- concerning shorter lengths like 8ths or 16ths, I’m not sure if it could be done that quickly.

> We have also retuning the metal reeds on harmonicas, and the kalimbas, and some marimbas have been made.

Wow, a Lucy-tuned harmonica must sound really great … I’d love to hear that one day.

> I have also retuned many acoustic keyboard instruments over the years including Rhodes, grand pianos, and harpsichords

Same for this.

> If you use keyboards or midi you can now get free downloads of tuning codes for the most popular DAW's from this page:

> http://www.lucytune.com/midi_and_keyboard/pitch_bend.html

Have looked at it. Where has the PKZip archive with the Scala files gone?

Petr

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Paøízek <p.parizek@...> wrote:
> This time, I decided to do the opposite -- to take the music
> which was originally intended for mavila and retune it to
> meantone.
//
> you can take a listen here:
> http://download.yousendit.com/D07BF00A06C0BA90

Proof positive that it's easier to make interesting music
in microtonal tunings!

-Carl

Charles Lucy wrote:
> Your way of think about the tunings and expressing them as integer > ratios is "odd" to me.
> > I conceptualise 135/128 as 92.179 cents

In mavila temperament, this interval "vanishes" in the same way as 81/80 (21.506 cents) vanishes in meantone. The perfect fourth is tempered to the extent that if you stack three of them, you get an octave plus a major third.

> 25/3 as 3 octaves above 1.041667 = 70.673 cents
> > and 192/25 as 2 octaves above 1129.3287cents
> > or 1200 - 1129.327 = 70.673 cents short of an octave.

25/3 is 3670.672 cents, but instead of taking it down 3 octaves, divide it by 7. The result is 524.382 cents, which fits the description of a "very [wide] fourth". Multiply by 3 and you get 1573.145 cents, which approximates a major tenth. If you do that with the meantone fourth, you get a minor tenth.

This kind of "warping" from meantone to mavila, or mavila to meantone, is likely the sort of thing that Erv Wilson had in mind when he made the illustration "Enantiodromia of Meta-Meantone into Meta-Mavila" (page 6 of http://www.anaphoria.com/meantone-mavila.PDF). But the charts and diagrams will have to speak for themselves, since there's very little text to go with them.

Yes the idea is that Mavila and meantone are opposites in the sense that the third is found by going a different direction which can be seen in the first page. if you take the scale out to 7 places you get the inverse of the diatonic with small and larges exchanging places.
While one can go for the converged or Ehrlich reduction on the idea, but there is great subtle variations that happen in the recurrent sequence. I use this on my hammer dulcimer and it took me quite a while to settle on where in the sequence i preferred it. Like the ones we find in Indonesia and South east Asia ( Mavila actually is closer to Burmese tuning that Javanese) you get more different sizes steps. Something a more civilized culture would do to get more out of less as opposed to the fence post methods of griding out the terrain in uniform fashion regardless if the land is flat or hilly. It also allow far more imagination and creativity in how one seeds it .

Little explored would be the subharmonic versions. This is work better if one used this series for Pelog Lou Harrison seem to realize more and more that the subharmonic series works better because it doesn't lock in the tonality as much.
Mavila is closer to a 16 Et than a 9 Et and only works with certain types of Pelogs, not the classic where the small intervals are of different size.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Herman Miller wrote:
>
> Charles Lucy wrote:
> > Your way of think about the tunings and expressing them as integer
> > ratios is "odd" to me.
> >
> > I conceptualise 135/128 as 92.179 cents
>
> In mavila temperament, this interval "vanishes" in the same way as 81/80
> (21.506 cents) vanishes in meantone. The perfect fourth is tempered to
> the extent that if you stack three of them, you get an octave plus a
> major third.
>
> > 25/3 as 3 octaves above 1.041667 = 70.673 cents
> >
> > and 192/25 as 2 octaves above 1129.3287cents
> >
> > or 1200 - 1129.327 = 70.673 cents short of an octave.
>
> 25/3 is 3670.672 cents, but instead of taking it down 3 octaves, divide
> it by 7. The result is 524.382 cents, which fits the description of a
> "very [wide] fourth". Multiply by 3 and you get 1573.145 cents, which
> approximates a major tenth. If you do that with the meantone fourth, you
> get a minor tenth.
>
> This kind of "warping" from meantone to mavila, or mavila to meantone,
> is likely the sort of thing that Erv Wilson had in mind when he made the
> illustration "Enantiodromia of Meta-Meantone into Meta-Mavila" (page 6
> of http://www.anaphoria.com/meantone-mavila.PDF > <http://www.anaphoria.com/meantone-mavila.PDF>). But the charts and
> diagrams will have to speak for themselves, since there's very little
> text to go with them.
>
>

Kraig wrote:

> While one can go for the converged or Ehrlich reduction on the idea,
> but there is great subtle variations that happen in the recurrent
> sequence.

What is that?

> I use this on my hammer dulcimer and it took me quite a while
> to settle on where in the sequence i preferred it.

You’ve lost me, I’m afraid.

> Like the ones we
> find in Indonesia and South east Asia ( Mavila actually is closer to
> Burmese tuning that Javanese) you get more different sizes steps.

Still haven’t caught on.

> Little explored would be the subharmonic versions. This is work better
> if one used this series for Pelog Lou Harrison seem to realize more and
> more that the subharmonic series works better because it doesn't lock in
> the tonality as much.

How do I make pelog out of the subharmonic series?

> Mavila is closer to a 16 Et than a 9 Et and only works with certain
> types of Pelogs, not the classic where the small intervals are of
> different size.

What do you mean by „classic pelog“?

Petr

the reference has already been referred to
anaphoria.com/meantone-mavila.PDF
usually one does not start (but one could) with the first few beginning numbers cause these act as a 'seed'.
depending on what harmonics you start with you will get a different sequence, but all will converge on the same number. One does the subharmonic by treating these numbers subharmonicly as opposed to harmonically.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Petr Pařízek wrote:
>
> 
>
> Kraig wrote:
>
> >
> > While one can go for the converged or Ehrlich reduction on the idea,
> > but there is great subtle variations that happen in the recurrent
> > sequence.
>
> >
> What is that?
>
> >
> > I use this on my hammer dulcimer and it took me quite a while
> > to settle on where in the sequence i preferred it.
>
> >
> You’ve lost me, I’m afraid.
>
> >
> > Like the ones we
> > find in Indonesia and South east Asia ( Mavila actually is closer to
> > Burmese tuning that Javanese) you get more different sizes steps.
>
> >
> Still haven’t caught on.
>
> >
> > Little explored would be the subharmonic versions. This is work better
> > if one used this series for Pelog Lou Harrison seem to realize more and
> > more that the subharmonic series works better because it doesn't lock in
> > the tonality as much.
>
> >
> How do I make pelog out of the subharmonic series?
>
> >
> > Mavila is closer to a 16 Et than a 9 Et and only works with certain
> > types of Pelogs, not the classic where the small intervals are of
> > different size.
>
> >
> What do you mean by „classic pelog“?
>
> >
> Petr
>
> >
> >
>