Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Harmonic Minor in Just Intonation

The theoretical Japanese scale (pentatonic) is a Pythagorean chain. that is 3/2 upon 3/2. It is not really related to the harmonic minor but if you wanted it to you could.
look at http://anaphoria.com/mos.PDF starting on page 11 for ratio possibilities of the Japanese scale. So just pick out a aug. 2nd where you want it using this 12 set as your set to chose from.
As a recent poster from japan pointed out, the semitone varies, and more work needs to be done (as always!).
the next article http://anaphoria.com/genus.PDF cover a bit of the same material and takes it out to 17 tones, and while the harmonic minor doesn't seem to appear , there are scales with one of the aug. 2nd you could use.
But it is up to you and what limit you want to use. and then one doesn't even have to think of it in terms of limits, if this is not a concern.
I hope this helps point in some direction

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Daniel Bernard wrote:
> How do you put the harmonic minor scale into just intonation, or is > this just one of the mysteries of the universe? I thought Asians > [Japanese] used a five note scale? If so, what are the five notes and > how does it fit into the harmonic minor scale? I'm assuming that they > are related to each other.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try > it now. > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20> >
>

🔗Tom Dent <stringph@gmail.com>

🔗Billy Gard <billygard@comcast.net>

<<< How do you put the harmonic minor scale into just intonation, or is this
just one of the mysteries of the universe? I thought Asians [Japanese] used
a five note scale? If so, what are the five notes and how does it fit into
the harmonic minor scale? I'm assuming that they are related to each other.
>>>

One way is to take the 5-limit JI tuning for the major scale
(24:27:30:32:36:40:45:48) and just adjust the 3rd and 6th degrees down a
5-limit augmented prime (25/24). Keep in mind, however, that like the JI
major, some chords need to be retuned away from their scale tuning to sound
good. An example would be the diminished 7th (10:12:14:17).

The 5-note scale you're thinking of could be the pentatonic scale (CDEGA) or
(CDFGA), which are playable using just the black keys. There could be any
number of JI tunings, but I for one could tune it mainly so the CEG and CEA
are just triads, and the D could retain the commatic dilemma that it does in
the JI major scale, since it cannot be tuned to the G and the A at the same
time.

I don't know the connection of the pentatonic with the harmonic minor,
however.

Billy

🔗Paul Poletti <paul@polettipiano.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Bernard <danielbernard13@...> wrote:
>
> How do you put the harmonic minor scale into just intonation, or is
>this just one of the mysteries of the universe?

The simplest way to think about it is that a Just tuning of the major
(diatonic) scale is most often constructed by tuning the three basic
triads with pure thirds and fifths: I, IV, and V. You start with I,
and then use the root as the fifth of IV and the fifth as the root of
V. No need to muck about with a series of nonintuitive ratios to the
root tone, just do it in a musical sense... easy as pie.

The same procedure would hold for harmonic minor, thus: i, iv, and V
with pure thirds and fifths.

> I thought Asians [Japanese] used a five note scale?

The "normal" anhemitonic pentatonic is quite common in Asian
traditions (2-2-3-2-3 in semitones), but the idea that this is
constructed as a series of pure fifths is a (relatively) modern
assumption. I suspect the true ancient origin is simply the harmonic
series, as is still used by the Tuvans. If you leave out the 11th
harmonic, as the Tuvans often do for who knows what reason (though
they occasionally do employ it), you get a sort of natural pentatonic.
They often play with the identity of the note between the fifth and
the tonic, using either the more common natural 7th (7th harmonic) or
the less common natural 6th (13th harmonic) depending upon where they
are in the overtone series at any specific melodic moment.

Understanding the acoustic origin as opposed to the ubiquitous
"Pythagorean" construct explains why the pentatonic is found in so
many primitive cultures world-wide. Like so many scales, its
construction using a series of pure fifths is a later rationalization.
Man opened his mouth and sang long before he had the mental and
physical constructs that would allow him to synthesize adjacent small
scale steps by constructing chains of much larger intervals, and in so
doing, he most likely either imitated nature or did what was
acoustically easy, if not both, which inevitably almost always means
using the harmonics series (excepting, of course, in the case of
inharmonic objects, mostly idiophones).

BTW, again the harmonic series is the inspiration for the three-triad
method of constructing the diatonic scale in Just tuning. The major
triad is the most basic harmonic construction, whose elements can be
easily heard within any single sustained tone of relatively bright
timbre, such one produced by the human voice, a goat or cattle horn
trumpet, a conch shell, etc etc. Once you cop to the fact that these
three notes fit together really well, all you have to do is cop to the
trick of transposing the whole unit up a down a fifth, which is of
course the most basic interval which offers anything more complex than
the unison-octave sense of identity. Just transpose the structure
3-4-5 up and down from a basic position, exactly as is done in the
traditional music of Corsica and Sardinia, though they choose melodic
"closeness" rather than harmonic, transposing by a whole step up and
down rather than a fifth.

> If so, what
>are the five notes and how does it fit into the harmonic minor scale?
>I'm assuming that they are related to each other.

This is not a valid assumption. Since harmonic minor has a semitone as
the leading tone, by definition it cannot be related to any
anhemitoninc scale. Asian melodies, both Chinese and Japanese, often
do use the pentatonic scale in the arrangement 3-2-2-3-2, which sounds
to us like the natural minor, not the harmonic.

Ciao,

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@gmail.com>

Paul Poletti wrote:

>> I thought Asians [Japanese] used a five note scale?
> > The "normal" anhemitonic pentatonic is quite common in Asian
> traditions (2-2-3-2-3 in semitones), but the idea that this is
> constructed as a series of pure fifths is a (relatively) modern
> assumption. I suspect the true ancient origin is simply the harmonic
> series, as is still used by the Tuvans. If you leave out the 11th
> harmonic, as the Tuvans often do for who knows what reason (though
> they occasionally do employ it), you get a sort of natural pentatonic.
> They often play with the identity of the note between the fifth and
> the tonic, using either the more common natural 7th (7th harmonic) or
> the less common natural 6th (13th harmonic) depending upon where they
> are in the overtone series at any specific melodic moment.

This page specifically says that the pentatonics in Chinese music do *not* require all pure fifths:

http://www.wfu.edu/~moran/Cathay_Cafe/G_tar.html

The twelve lv are constructed from pure fifths, and then the pentatonics are taken from the lv. But you can choose where you start the scale. By doing that you can get whatever combination of schismatic thirds you like.

I don't know what the ancient texts actually say. But it looks like the idea of Pythagorean pentatonics is a modern simplification of pentatonics taken from a Pythagorean chromatic.

Nothing, as far as I can tell, to do with harmonic minor though.

Graham

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

What could possibly be non intuitive ratios. it is what people tune by ear , or at least can very easily.
What you say about Japanese music is not in fact true. Tanabe who i referenced was an expert on Japanese music writing numerous books about the subject. the Pythagorean series goes back to china and this part of the world while Europeans where still in caves. Shinto music dates from post roman period.The Japanese do not use and do not like this type of pentatonic you site, preferring the ones with semitones more than not. the other they associate with china or Korea
There is no relations between the Japanese and the Tuvans. Even genetically. they are about as close as Sweden and Morocco.
the harmonic series does not make a good scale and people seem to avoid it as much as use it.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Paul Poletti wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <mailto:tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, > Daniel Bernard <danielbernard13@...> wrote:
> >
> > How do you put the harmonic minor scale into just intonation, or is
> >this just one of the mysteries of the universe?
>
> The simplest way to think about it is that a Just tuning of the major
> (diatonic) scale is most often constructed by tuning the three basic
> triads with pure thirds and fifths: I, IV, and V. You start with I,
> and then use the root as the fifth of IV and the fifth as the root of
> V. No need to muck about with a series of nonintuitive ratios to the
> root tone, just do it in a musical sense... easy as pie.
>
> The same procedure would hold for harmonic minor, thus: i, iv, and V
> with pure thirds and fifths.
>
> > I thought Asians [Japanese] used a five note scale?
>
> The "normal" anhemitonic pentatonic is quite common in Asian
> traditions (2-2-3-2-3 in semitones), but the idea that this is
> constructed as a series of pure fifths is a (relatively) modern
> assumption. I suspect the true ancient origin is simply the harmonic
> series, as is still used by the Tuvans. If you leave out the 11th
> harmonic, as the Tuvans often do for who knows what reason (though
> they occasionally do employ it), you get a sort of natural pentatonic.
> They often play with the identity of the note between the fifth and
> the tonic, using either the more common natural 7th (7th harmonic) or
> the less common natural 6th (13th harmonic) depending upon where they
> are in the overtone series at any specific melodic moment.
>
> Understanding the acoustic origin as opposed to the ubiquitous
> "Pythagorean" construct explains why the pentatonic is found in so
> many primitive cultures world-wide. Like so many scales, its
> construction using a series of pure fifths is a later rationalization.
> Man opened his mouth and sang long before he had the mental and
> physical constructs that would allow him to synthesize adjacent small
> scale steps by constructing chains of much larger intervals, and in so
> doing, he most likely either imitated nature or did what was
> acoustically easy, if not both, which inevitably almost always means
> using the harmonics series (excepting, of course, in the case of
> inharmonic objects, mostly idiophones).
>
> BTW, again the harmonic series is the inspiration for the three-triad
> method of constructing the diatonic scale in Just tuning. The major
> triad is the most basic harmonic construction, whose elements can be
> easily heard within any single sustained tone of relatively bright
> timbre, such one produced by the human voice, a goat or cattle horn
> trumpet, a conch shell, etc etc. Once you cop to the fact that these
> three notes fit together really well, all you have to do is cop to the
> trick of transposing the whole unit up a down a fifth, which is of
> course the most basic interval which offers anything more complex than
> the unison-octave sense of identity. Just transpose the structure
> 3-4-5 up and down from a basic position, exactly as is done in the
> traditional music of Corsica and Sardinia, though they choose melodic
> "closeness" rather than harmonic, transposing by a whole step up and
> down rather than a fifth.
>
> > If so, what
> >are the five notes and how does it fit into the harmonic minor scale?
> >I'm assuming that they are related to each other.
>
> This is not a valid assumption. Since harmonic minor has a semitone as
> the leading tone, by definition it cannot be related to any
> anhemitoninc scale. Asian melodies, both Chinese and Japanese, often
> do use the pentatonic scale in the arrangement 3-2-2-3-2, which sounds
> to us like the natural minor, not the harmonic.
>
> Ciao,
>
> P
>
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

China and Japan use different scales. they did calculate 53 probably before anyone else.
In India they took the Pythagorean chain out to 12 also and then played with the intervals contain. Hence Shruti originally meant interval.
the equivalence of Fb =E 5/4.
China though has quite a bit of wind instruments and more has to be understood how they were tuned. Often when combined with strings there has to be a compromise between the Pythagorean and the subharmonic tunings most common on the winds, or they are allowed to exist side by side (what i can get out of Gagaku for example). a side of the tuning timbre question that has remained untouched.
There is great advantage to not having all the fifths pure though. Even Ptolemy pointed this out that this was the practice. Where it occurs it defines the tonic. Otherwise any tone in a repeating tetrachord could be mistaken as it. It seem the same would be with the pentatonic if you wanted to make one note more of the focus.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Graham Breed wrote:
>
> Paul Poletti wrote:
>
> >> I thought Asians [Japanese] used a five note scale?
> >
> > The "normal" anhemitonic pentatonic is quite common in Asian
> > traditions (2-2-3-2-3 in semitones), but the idea that this is
> > constructed as a series of pure fifths is a (relatively) modern
> > assumption. I suspect the true ancient origin is simply the harmonic
> > series, as is still used by the Tuvans. If you leave out the 11th
> > harmonic, as the Tuvans often do for who knows what reason (though
> > they occasionally do employ it), you get a sort of natural pentatonic.
> > They often play with the identity of the note between the fifth and
> > the tonic, using either the more common natural 7th (7th harmonic) or
> > the less common natural 6th (13th harmonic) depending upon where they
> > are in the overtone series at any specific melodic moment.
>
> This page specifically says that the pentatonics in Chinese
> music do *not* require all pure fifths:
>
> http://www.wfu.edu/~moran/Cathay_Cafe/G_tar.html > <http://www.wfu.edu/%7Emoran/Cathay_Cafe/G_tar.html>
>
> The twelve lv are constructed from pure fifths, and then the
> pentatonics are taken from the lv. But you can choose where
> you start the scale. By doing that you can get whatever
> combination of schismatic thirds you like.
>
> I don't know what the ancient texts actually say. But it
> looks like the idea of Pythagorean pentatonics is a modern
> simplification of pentatonics taken from a Pythagorean
> chromatic.
>
> Nothing, as far as I can tell, to do with harmonic minor though.
>
> Graham
>
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

the ratios at the bottom get confusing on this page because it drops digits once it get above 10,000.
the 6 cents higher allot of these intervals result in make quite a bit of difference to the ear.
taking the 13th 3/2 as the octave, and the Pythagorean chain out to 24 places one you have the 12 base keys.
In India you have 22 but that is because you have drones on the 1/1 and 3/2 so you wouldn't want the commas there.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Graham Breed wrote:
>
>
>
> This page specifically says that the pentatonics in Chinese
> music do *not* require all pure fifths:
>
> http://www.wfu.edu/~moran/Cathay_Cafe/G_tar.html > <http://www.wfu.edu/%7Emoran/Cathay_Cafe/G_tar.html>
>
> The twelve lv are constructed from pure fifths, and then the
> pentatonics are taken from the lv. But you can choose where
> you start the scale. By doing that you can get whatever
> combination of schismatic thirds you like.
>
> I don't know what the ancient texts actually say. But it
> looks like the idea of Pythagorean pentatonics is a modern
> simplification of pentatonics taken from a Pythagorean
> chromatic.
>
> Nothing, as far as I can tell, to do with harmonic minor though.
>
> Graham
>
> >
>
> Recent Activity
>
> *
> 5
> New Members
> </tuning/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJka2k4MHR0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzcwNjA1BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTg5Nzc1MwRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2bWJycwRzdGltZQMxMjA5ODA1ODQx>
>
> Visit Your Group > </tuning;_ylc=X3oDMTJjZXZqampxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzcwNjA1BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTg5Nzc1MwRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEyMDk4MDU4NDE-> >
> Sell Online
>
> Start selling with > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13odblvd8/M=493064.12016255.12445662.8674578/D=grplch/S=1705897753:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1209813041/L=/B=eF.hDULaX9Q-/J=1209805841159148/A=4025291/R=0/SIG=12bsapn24/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44092/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/merchant>
>
> our award-winning
>
> e-commerce tools.
>
> New web site?
>
> Drive traffic now. > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ov6ab6k/M=493064.12016308.12445700.8674578/D=grplch/S=1705897753:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1209813041/L=/B=eV.hDULaX9Q-/J=1209805841159148/A=3848642/R=0/SIG=131eshi2t/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2004&cmp=Yahoo&ctv=Groups3&s=Y&s2=&s3=&b=50>
>
> Get your business
>
> on Yahoo! search.
>
> John McEnroe
>
> on Yahoo! Groups > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ol68mn4/M=493064.12016283.12445687.8674578/D=grplch/S=1705897753:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1209813041/L=/B=el.hDULaX9Q-/J=1209805841159148/A=5202321/R=0/SIG=11aijbghb/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/allbrangroup>
>
> Join him for the
>
> 10 Day Challenge.
>
> .
>
>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@gmail.com>

Kraig Grady wrote:
> the ratios at the bottom get confusing on this page because it drops > digits once it get above 10,000.
> the 6 cents higher allot of these intervals result in make quite a bit > of difference to the ear.

Yes, but it's supposed to be a single Pythagorean chain.

> taking the 13th 3/2 as the octave, and the Pythagorean chain out to 24 > places one you have the 12 base keys.

I think the 12 notes (lv) are the entire gamut. You can transpose each pentatonic to any degree of the 12 note scale, but the 12 notes are fixed. And I think this goes back to the Han Dynasty.

> In India you have 22 but that is because you have drones on the 1/1 and > 3/2 so you wouldn't want the commas there.

In India they talk about 22 because they care a lot more about the tuning. Also they were using 7 note scales earlier, and more of them. The Chinese theory is about the same 5 note pattern with different starting points. 12 notes is fine to code the Pythagorean/schismatic subtleties. Maybe they really do want the scales to sound weird if you transpose them to certain degrees the same way they want the instruments to sound out of tune with each other.

There surely must have been other scales used in China. But the theory's all about these pentatonics.

This page suggests Chinese music wasn't pentatonic to start with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guqin_tunings

It certainly isn't pentatonic now but the myth persists.

Graham

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

Once you take the sequence and take it out to each of the 12 pitches you have extended the tuning to 24 places. This is easy to spot cause each diagonal row will have two different sizes. also this represents just one octave. It seems odd to have one pitch that is 23 cents sharp of an octave and then all the other notes pure octaves. This doesn't make sense. So one could only guess they kept moving up the chain.
The chain out to 24 occurs historically also in Turkey
This same effect can happens with recurrent sequences where as one moves up the chain giving the appears of 'stretched' octaves.
The Guqin is still pentatonic just modulated to various degrees. Just like what Tanabe showed Erv Wilson in Japan ( the same information you will find in his books and other authors). We find this in Pelog where 7 pitches are tuned up but only 5 are used at a time, until more recently some use the whole set. It is basic MOS/ constant structure practice
especially on the dual level.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Graham Breed wrote:
>
>
>
> I think the 12 notes (lv) are the entire gamut. You can
> transpose each pentatonic to any degree of the 12 note
> scale, but the 12 notes are fixed. And I think this goes
> back to the Han Dynasty.
>
> > In India you have 22 but that is because you have drones on the 1/1 and
> > 3/2 so you wouldn't want the commas there.
>
> In India they talk about 22 because they care a lot more
> about the tuning. Also they were using 7 note scales
> earlier, and more of them. The Chinese theory is about the
> same 5 note pattern with different starting points. 12
> notes is fine to code the Pythagorean/schismatic subtleties.
> Maybe they really do want the scales to sound weird if you
> transpose them to certain degrees the same way they want the
> instruments to sound out of tune with each other.
>
> There surely must have been other scales used in China. But
> the theory's all about these pentatonics.
>
> This page suggests Chinese music wasn't pentatonic to start
> with:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guqin_tunings > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guqin_tunings>
>
> It certainly isn't pentatonic now but the myth persists.
>
> Graham
>
>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@gmail.com>

Kraig Grady wrote:
> Once you take the sequence and take it out to each of the 12 pitches > you have extended the tuning to 24 places. This is easy to spot cause > each diagonal row will have two different sizes. also this represents > just one octave. It seems odd to have one pitch that is 23 cents sharp > of an octave and then all the other notes pure octaves. This doesn't > make sense. So one could only guess they kept moving up the chain.
> The chain out to 24 occurs historically also in Turkey
> This same effect can happens with recurrent sequences where as one moves > up the chain giving the appears of 'stretched' octaves.
> > The Guqin is still pentatonic just modulated to various degrees. Just > like what Tanabe showed Erv Wilson in Japan ( the same information you > will find in his books and other authors). We find this in Pelog where 7 > pitches are tuned up but only 5 are used at a time, until more recently > some use the whole set. It is basic MOS/ constant structure practice
> especially on the dual level.

Before you said Japan and China use different scales, before giving a Japanese genre as an example of Chinese music. Now you say they're the same? Well, whatever, here's a scan of some guqin music:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:QXRM_tab.jpg

It includes the gongche notation. So by what interpretation is this pentatonic? I can see "shang che shang gong che che" (上尺上工尺尺) That's three consecutive notes from a diatonic scale. It doesn't even make sense with the che as a passing note. And this is from 1864.

Graham

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@gmail.com>

Once you can notate all the different schismatic pentatonics, there's no need to go any further.

> The Guqin is still pentatonic just modulated to various degrees. Just > like what Tanabe showed Erv Wilson in Japan ( the same information you > will find in his books and other authors). We find this in Pelog where 7 > pitches are tuned up but only 5 are used at a time, until more recently > some use the whole set. It is basic MOS/ constant structure practice
> especially on the dual level.

Oops, the piece I linked to is pentatonic, but in the gong scale. Still, most Chinese music these days is not pentatonic. Maybe the guqin's an exception what with being gu.

Graham

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

Japan and China take different subsets of this series, Japan prefers pentatonics with semitones. China does not.
If you look at the article on the Guqin in wikipedia it describes this. Wikipedia is always a questionable source. Chinese Musicians have a terrible time defining semitones. there is a version of IN C that seems to exploit this. this instrument is also played on the harmonics of the strings so who knows how that is determined.
There is a wergo recording of this instrument that i have failed to grab the few times it was in my hands.

China like India is really more than one culture, i imagine that some minority would use 7 tones at times. For the record the most interesting recordings i have from China are more than often from the minorities. not unusual when we think of the blacks in the US , The Kurds in the mid east, of those in the Hebrides in the UK.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Graham Breed wrote:
>
> Kraig Grady wrote:
> > Once you take the sequence and take it out to each of the 12 pitches
> > you have extended the tuning to 24 places. This is easy to spot cause
> > each diagonal row will have two different sizes. also this represents
> > just one octave. It seems odd to have one pitch that is 23 cents sharp
> > of an octave and then all the other notes pure octaves. This doesn't
> > make sense. So one could only guess they kept moving up the chain.
> > The chain out to 24 occurs historically also in Turkey
> > This same effect can happens with recurrent sequences where as one > moves
> > up the chain giving the appears of 'stretched' octaves.
> >
> > The Guqin is still pentatonic just modulated to various degrees. Just
> > like what Tanabe showed Erv Wilson in Japan ( the same information you
> > will find in his books and other authors). We find this in Pelog > where 7
> > pitches are tuned up but only 5 are used at a time, until more recently
> > some use the whole set. It is basic MOS/ constant structure practice
> > especially on the dual level.
>
> Before you said Japan and China use different scales, before
> giving a Japanese genre as an example of Chinese music. Now
> you say they're the same? Well, whatever, here's a scan of
> some guqin music:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:QXRM_tab.jpg > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:QXRM_tab.jpg>
>
> It includes the gongche notation. So by what interpretation
> is this pentatonic? I can see "shang che shang gong che
> che" (上尺上工尺尺) That's three consecutive notes from a
> diatonic scale. It doesn't even make sense with the che as
> a passing note. And this is from 1864.
>
> Graham
>
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

well the cultural revolution has instituted western harmonic practice. They have claimed to have invented the major scale with a set of bells where the tuning does not line up

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Graham Breed wrote:
>
> Kraig Grady wrote:
> > Once you take the sequence and take it out to each of the 12 pitches
> > you have extended the tuning to 24 places. This is easy to spot cause
> > each diagonal row will have two different sizes. also this represents
> > just one octave. It seems odd to have one pitch that is 23 cents sharp
> > of an octave and then all the other notes pure octaves. This doesn't
> > make sense. So one could only guess they kept moving up the chain.
> > The chain out to 24 occurs historically also in Turkey
> > This same effect can happens with recurrent sequences where as one > moves
> > up the chain giving the appears of 'stretched' octaves.
>
> Once you can notate all the different schismatic
> pentatonics, there's no need to go any further.
>
> > The Guqin is still pentatonic just modulated to various degrees. Just
> > like what Tanabe showed Erv Wilson in Japan ( the same information you
> > will find in his books and other authors). We find this in Pelog > where 7
> > pitches are tuned up but only 5 are used at a time, until more recently
> > some use the whole set. It is basic MOS/ constant structure practice
> > especially on the dual level.
>
> Oops, the piece I linked to is pentatonic, but in the gong
> scale. Still, most Chinese music these days is not
> pentatonic. Maybe the guqin's an exception what with being gu.
>
> Graham
>
>

Harmonic Minor in Just Intonation

🔗Daniel Bernard <danielbernard13@yahoo.com>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

🔗Tom Dent <stringph@gmail.com>

🔗Billy Gard <billygard@comcast.net>

🔗Paul Poletti <paul@polettipiano.com>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@gmail.com>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@gmail.com>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@gmail.com>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@gmail.com>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>