Re: Here is a 17-tone stripped-down JI maqam music scale... revised and extended to 19-tones

For smoother cycle of fifths, I made some changes to the 17-tone maqam music
tuning I posted previously:

21/20
25/23
9/8
13/11
17/14
21/17
19/15
4/3
7/5
36/25
3/2
11/7
41/25
33/20
27/16
39/22
13/7
21/11
2/1

Here are the cents and perde names:

0 RAST
84 Nim Zengule (aka Shuri)
144 Zengule
204 DUGAH
289 Kurdi (aka Nihavend)
336 * Ushshaq (low version of SEGAH)
366 SEGAH
409 Buselik
498 CHARGAH
583 Hijaz
631 Saba
702 NEVA
782 Nim Hisar (aka Beyati)
856 Hisar
867 * Hisarek
906 HUSEYNI
991 Ajem
1072 EVDJ
1119 Mahur
1200 GERDANIYE

(* non-cyclic tones)

In SCALA, 31-ET notation works well.

Please note, that for a better perde Hisarek, I replaced 33/20 with 38/23,
which is 2 cents higher. Hopefully, this will be the final touch.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com>
To: "Tuning List" <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 17 Nisan 2008 Per�embe 23:23
Subject: Re: Here is a 17-tone stripped-down JI maqam music scale... revised
and extended to 19-tones

> For smoother cycle of fifths, I made some changes to the 17-tone maqam
music
> tuning I posted previously:
>
> 21/20
> 25/23
> 9/8
> 13/11
> 17/14
> 21/17
> 19/15
> 4/3
> 7/5
> 36/25
> 3/2
> 11/7
> 41/25
> 33/20
> 27/16
> 39/22
> 13/7
> 21/11
> 2/1
>
> Here are the cents and perde names:
>
> 0 RAST
> 84 Nim Zengule (aka Shuri)
> 144 Zengule
> 204 DUGAH
> 289 Kurdi (aka Nihavend)
> 336 * Ushshaq (low version of SEGAH)
> 366 SEGAH
> 409 Buselik
> 498 CHARGAH
> 583 Hijaz
> 631 Saba
> 702 NEVA
> 782 Nim Hisar (aka Beyati)
> 856 Hisar
> 867 * Hisarek
> 906 HUSEYNI
> 991 Ajem
> 1072 EVDJ
> 1119 Mahur
> 1200 GERDANIYE
>
> (* non-cyclic tones)
>
> In SCALA, 31-ET notation works well.
>

Hi Ozan,

been watching this, and cut-and-pasting into Scala to listen. A
couple of questions- I take it from these examples that "segah" must
mean some kind of "soft third", in general? Ranging from about 11/9
to 5/4, low and high?

Do you have 19/15 here as a kind of compromise between 81/64 and 14/
11? If it is, I would think 33/26 might work, in keeping with the 11s
and 13s, and being almost identical with the harmonic mean of 81/64
and 14/11. But it might throw off other things of course.

Does Hisar have a theoretical ideal, like 18/11, or does it also have
a range, 13/8 to 18/11 for example?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Please note, that for a better perde Hisarek, I replaced 33/20 with
38/23,
> which is 2 cents higher. Hopefully, this will be the final touch.
>
> Oz.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...>
> To: "Tuning List" <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 17 Nisan 2008 Perþembe 23:23
> Subject: Re: Here is a 17-tone stripped-down JI maqam music
scale... revised
> and extended to 19-tones
>
>
> > For smoother cycle of fifths, I made some changes to the 17-tone
maqam
> music
> > tuning I posted previously:
> >
> > 21/20
> > 25/23
> > 9/8
> > 13/11
> > 17/14
> > 21/17
> > 19/15
> > 4/3
> > 7/5
> > 36/25
> > 3/2
> > 11/7
> > 41/25
> > 33/20
> > 27/16
> > 39/22
> > 13/7
> > 21/11
> > 2/1
> >
> > Here are the cents and perde names:
> >
> > 0 RAST
> > 84 Nim Zengule (aka Shuri)
> > 144 Zengule
> > 204 DUGAH
> > 289 Kurdi (aka Nihavend)
> > 336 * Ushshaq (low version of SEGAH)
> > 366 SEGAH
> > 409 Buselik
> > 498 CHARGAH
> > 583 Hijaz
> > 631 Saba
> > 702 NEVA
> > 782 Nim Hisar (aka Beyati)
> > 856 Hisar
> > 867 * Hisarek
> > 906 HUSEYNI
> > 991 Ajem
> > 1072 EVDJ
> > 1119 Mahur
> > 1200 GERDANIYE
> >
> > (* non-cyclic tones)
> >
> > In SCALA, 31-ET notation works well.
> >
>

Dear Cameron,

Indeed, segah is a very fickle soft third loitering about in the zone you
defined. In Persian, it means "third place", but rather than a point, it
resembles a portamento cluster. By rule of thumb, hisar is always supposed
to be a pure fourth above segah, except in maqam Huzzam, where it definitely
flounders about between 13/8 and 18/11. In AEU theory as well as Arabic
maqam music, Hisar is divided into three parts: nim hisar - hisar - dik
hisar. Arabic infatuation with 24-EDO notation consigns the intervals in
between them to quartertones, whereas, in the 24-tone Pythagorean tuning,
the sequence is comma+limma.

19/15 is certainly a middle ground between the Pythagorean and undecimal
major thirds. Yes, 33/26 may be used to soften the transition by the chain
of fifths here. But I prefer the former because it is low enough and helps
me avoid a nasty 170 cent interval between hijaz and buselik. Besides, the
scale is 41-limit, so there is no need to discard 19.

Cordially,
Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cameron Bobro" <misterbobro@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 18 Nisan 2008 Cuma 0:41
Subject: [tuning] Re: Here is a 17-tone stripped-down JI maqam music
scale... revised and extended to 19-tones

Hi Ozan,

been watching this, and cut-and-pasting into Scala to listen. A
couple of questions- I take it from these examples that "segah" must
mean some kind of "soft third", in general? Ranging from about 11/9
to 5/4, low and high?

Do you have 19/15 here as a kind of compromise between 81/64 and 14/
11? If it is, I would think 33/26 might work, in keeping with the 11s
and 13s, and being almost identical with the harmonic mean of 81/64
and 14/11. But it might throw off other things of course.

Does Hisar have a theoretical ideal, like 18/11, or does it also have
a range, 13/8 to 18/11 for example?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Please note, that for a better perde Hisarek, I replaced 33/20 with
38/23,
> which is 2 cents higher. Hopefully, this will be the final touch.
>
> Oz.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...>
> To: "Tuning List" <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 17 Nisan 2008 Per�embe 23:23
> Subject: Re: Here is a 17-tone stripped-down JI maqam music
scale... revised
> and extended to 19-tones
>
>
> > For smoother cycle of fifths, I made some changes to the 17-tone
maqam
> music
> > tuning I posted previously:
> >
> > 21/20
> > 25/23
> > 9/8
> > 13/11
> > 17/14
> > 21/17
> > 19/15
> > 4/3
> > 7/5
> > 36/25
> > 3/2
> > 11/7
> > 41/25
> > 33/20
> > 27/16
> > 39/22
> > 13/7
> > 21/11
> > 2/1
> >
> > Here are the cents and perde names:
> >
> > 0 RAST
> > 84 Nim Zengule (aka Shuri)
> > 144 Zengule
> > 204 DUGAH
> > 289 Kurdi (aka Nihavend)
> > 336 * Ushshaq (low version of SEGAH)
> > 366 SEGAH
> > 409 Buselik
> > 498 CHARGAH
> > 583 Hijaz
> > 631 Saba
> > 702 NEVA
> > 782 Nim Hisar (aka Beyati)
> > 856 Hisar
> > 867 * Hisarek
> > 906 HUSEYNI
> > 991 Ajem
> > 1072 EVDJ
> > 1119 Mahur
> > 1200 GERDANIYE
> >
> > (* non-cyclic tones)
> >
> > In SCALA, 31-ET notation works well.
> >
>

Thanks Ozan, very interesting! I like the fact that you have many,
many things to consider and balance when making these tunings.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Cameron,
>
> Indeed, segah is a very fickle soft third loitering about in the
zone you
> defined. In Persian, it means "third place", but rather than a
point, it
> resembles a portamento cluster. By rule of thumb, hisar is always
supposed
> to be a pure fourth above segah, except in maqam Huzzam, where it
definitely
> flounders about between 13/8 and 18/11. In AEU theory as well as
Arabic
> maqam music, Hisar is divided into three parts: nim hisar - hisar -
dik
> hisar. Arabic infatuation with 24-EDO notation consigns the
intervals in
> between them to quartertones, whereas, in the 24-tone Pythagorean
tuning,
> the sequence is comma+limma.
>
> 19/15 is certainly a middle ground between the Pythagorean and
undecimal
> major thirds. Yes, 33/26 may be used to soften the transition by
the chain
> of fifths here. But I prefer the former because it is low enough
and helps
> me avoid a nasty 170 cent interval between hijaz and buselik.
Besides, the
> scale is 41-limit, so there is no need to discard 19.
>
> Cordially,
> Oz.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cameron Bobro" <misterbobro@...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 18 Nisan 2008 Cuma 0:41
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Here is a 17-tone stripped-down JI maqam music
> scale... revised and extended to 19-tones
>
>
> Hi Ozan,
>
> been watching this, and cut-and-pasting into Scala to listen. A
> couple of questions- I take it from these examples that "segah" must
> mean some kind of "soft third", in general? Ranging from about 11/9
> to 5/4, low and high?
>
> Do you have 19/15 here as a kind of compromise between 81/64 and 14/
> 11? If it is, I would think 33/26 might work, in keeping with the
11s
> and 13s, and being almost identical with the harmonic mean of 81/64
> and 14/11. But it might throw off other things of course.
>
> Does Hisar have a theoretical ideal, like 18/11, or does it also
have
> a range, 13/8 to 18/11 for example?
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@> wrote:
> >
> > Please note, that for a better perde Hisarek, I replaced 33/20
with
> 38/23,
> > which is 2 cents higher. Hopefully, this will be the final touch.
> >
> > Oz.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@>
> > To: "Tuning List" <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: 17 Nisan 2008 Perþembe 23:23
> > Subject: Re: Here is a 17-tone stripped-down JI maqam music
> scale... revised
> > and extended to 19-tones
> >
> >
> > > For smoother cycle of fifths, I made some changes to the 17-tone
> maqam
> > music
> > > tuning I posted previously:
> > >
> > > 21/20
> > > 25/23
> > > 9/8
> > > 13/11
> > > 17/14
> > > 21/17
> > > 19/15
> > > 4/3
> > > 7/5
> > > 36/25
> > > 3/2
> > > 11/7
> > > 41/25
> > > 33/20
> > > 27/16
> > > 39/22
> > > 13/7
> > > 21/11
> > > 2/1
> > >
> > > Here are the cents and perde names:
> > >
> > > 0 RAST
> > > 84 Nim Zengule (aka Shuri)
> > > 144 Zengule
> > > 204 DUGAH
> > > 289 Kurdi (aka Nihavend)
> > > 336 * Ushshaq (low version of SEGAH)
> > > 366 SEGAH
> > > 409 Buselik
> > > 498 CHARGAH
> > > 583 Hijaz
> > > 631 Saba
> > > 702 NEVA
> > > 782 Nim Hisar (aka Beyati)
> > > 856 Hisar
> > > 867 * Hisarek
> > > 906 HUSEYNI
> > > 991 Ajem
> > > 1072 EVDJ
> > > 1119 Mahur
> > > 1200 GERDANIYE
> > >
> > > (* non-cyclic tones)
> > >
> > > In SCALA, 31-ET notation works well.
> > >
> >
>