Re : the high third is 9/7 ...sometimes

(Paul Erlich, 27 December 1999:)
>I would like to encourage those of you on this list you have worked with
> Indian music to please respond to >Gerald's assertion that it is natural to
> sing a high third over a root-fifth drone, regardless of cultural
>environment.

Pandit Firoze Framjee, in his Text Book of Indian Music (1934), describes a
high third of 406 cents (ratio 512:405) used as a sharpened Ga (third note
of the fundamental scale) in the scale Sindh Kafi, which regroups 18
different Ragas. There is something typical about this scale because it
uses in the same time the low version of the Ga of 316 cents (ratio 6:5). In
all the other scales, regrouping an almost infinite number of Ragas, the Ga
is defined either as a 5:4 (386 cents) or a 6:5 or a 32:27, but never two of
them appear in the same scale.

I don�t have any recording of a Raga using this high third, but here�s the
list of all 18 in case someone might want to look for an example.

1. Sindh Kafi
2. Kafi
3. Sindura
4. Daisi
5. Barva
6. Patmanjari
7. Sorath
8. Dais
9. Jaijaivanti
10. Gara
11. Hanskankani
12. Patdipaki
13. Lankadahan
14. Ramdasi Malhaar
15. Rupmanjari
16. Dais Malhaar
17. Charjuki Malhaar
18. Dhudia Malhaar

Wim Hoogewerf.

"Wim Hoogewerf" <wim.hoogewerf@fnac.net> wrote:

>Pandit Firoze Framjee, in his Text Book of Indian Music (1934), describes a
>high third of 406 cents (ratio 512:405) used as a sharpened Ga (third note
>of the fundamental scale) in the scale Sindh Kafi, which regroups 18
>different Ragas. There is something typical about this scale because it
>uses in the same time the low version of the Ga of 316 cents (ratio 6:5). In
>all the other scales, regrouping an almost infinite number of Ragas, the Ga
>is defined either as a 5:4 (386 cents) or a 6:5 or a 32:27, but never two of
>them appear in the same scale.

Regrettably, Mark Levy's book _Intonation in North Indian Music_ does not
measure performances of a raga with unaltered Sa, Ga, and Pa. He analyzes
one vocal performance of raga Marva, which has the scale (if represented as
starting on C): C, Db, E, F#, A, B, C. I'm not sure what the drone notes
would be for this raga, probably Ni and Sa (B and C). In this context, he
measured only two Ga's: 404 and 415 cents.

All of the other performances are of ragas with minor thirds above Sa. Here
is a summary:

Raga Average Ga b High Low #measured S.D.
Malkaus 311 340 285 28 15
Malkaus 326 361 303 24 17
Darbari 321 342 302 22 11
Darbari 338 365 305 11 16
Bagesri 327 341 320 9 8
Bagesri 296 315 276 7 15
Tori 303 317 287 22 8
Abhogi 295 307 282 111 6

He notes that some of these pitches involved considerable vibrato.

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Wim Hoogewerf wrote,

>Pandit Firoze Framjee, in his Text Book of Indian Music (1934), describes a
>high third of 406 cents (ratio 512:405) used as a sharpened Ga (third note
>of the fundamental scale) in the scale

The usual tack (take?) is that Indian music uses a 22-tone scale, where the
two possible "major thirds" over the tonic are a 5:4 (386�) and an 81:64
(408�). My cursory glance over the Framjee (thanks for sending me a copy, by
the way!) didn't reveal any differences from the standard take, but I must
have missed something. It's only 2� anyway.

Paul Erlich wrote:

> The usual tack (take?) is that Indian music uses a 22-tone scale, where the
> two possible "major thirds" over the tonic are a 5:4 (386�) and an 81:64
> (408�). My cursory glance over the Framjee (thanks for sending me a copy, by
> the way!) didn't reveal any differences from the standard take, but I must
> have missed something. It's only 2� anyway.

Framjee speaks about the high third 81:64 as well (Shruti Nr.8, Roadhri) but
curiously never uses it in any scale description. The thirds 5:4 and the
512:405 share he same Shruti-name in Framjee's theory, since their
difference is only 20 cents. I haven't studied enough on this method and on
Indian music in general to explain why.

I found a good example in my record collection of the hight third: Raga Jog
performed on sitar by Jamaluddin Bhartiya, who was my teacher in Amsterdam
in 1978. The Raga combines a low minor third (lower as 6:5) resolving to Sa
most of the time and another one which sounds very *actif*, full of energy
and therefore should be higher as the 5:4. Raga Jog doesn't appear on the
list of Ragas provided by Mr. Framjee.

Wim wrote,

>Framjee speaks about the high third 81:64 as well (Shruti Nr.8, Roadhri)
but
>curiously never uses it in any scale description. The thirds 5:4 and the
>512:405 share he same Shruti-name in Framjee's theory, since their
>difference is only 20 cents. I haven't studied enough on this method and on
>Indian music in general to explain why.

This follows from my post on 9/24/99 interpreting the sruti scale as a
22-tone periodicity block. One of the unison vectors is the diaschisma or
2048/2025, which is precisely the difference between 5/4 and 512/405. Thus
5/4 and 512/405 are represented by the same sruti; specifically, #7.
Meanwhile, the syntonic comma 81:80 comes out as 1 sruti, so 81:64 is sruti
#8.

Paul Erlich:

> Wim wrote,
>
>>Framjee speaks about the high third 81:64 as well (Shruti Nr.8, Roadhri)
> but
>>curiously never uses it in any scale description. The thirds 5:4 and the
>>512:405 share he same Shruti-name in Framjee's theory, since their
>>difference is only 20 cents. I haven't studied enough on this method and on
>>Indian music in general to explain why.
>
> This follows from my post on 9/24/99 interpreting the sruti scale as a
> 22-tone periodicity block. One of the unison vectors is the diaschisma or
> 2048/2025, which is precisely the difference between 5/4 and 512/405. Thus
> 5/4 and 512/405 are represented by the same sruti; specifically, #7.
> Meanwhile, the syntonic comma 81:80 comes out as 1 sruti, so 81:64 is sruti
> #8.

Agreed. So there are three unison vectors in Framjee's
calculation/description of he Shruti-scale: first the 2048:2025 you
mentioned, then the syntonic comma 81:80 (22 cents) and the 25:24 (70 cents,
difference between 6:5 and 5:4). By superposition of these three all 22
Shruti-intervals/pitches are constructed. Right?

--Wim

Wim Hoogewerf wrote,

>So there are three unison vectors in Framjee's
>calculation/description of he Shruti-scale: first the 2048:2025 you
>mentioned, then the syntonic comma 81:80 (22 cents) and the 25:24 (70
cents,
>difference between 6:5 and 5:4).

No, 81:80 and 25:24 are not unison vectors since they are represented by 1
sruti, not 0 srutis.