Bach/lute

I'll betcha Bach tuned his lute/clavier to 12 tone equal temp cause that's how lutes were tuned...Hstick
myspace.com/microstick

yea! it is you fretted string players that caused all the trouble ( joking of course!)

microstick@msn.com wrote:
>
> I'll betcha Bach tuned his lute/clavier to 12 tone equal temp cause > that's how lutes were tuned...Hstick
> myspace.com/microstick
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> I'll betcha Bach tuned his lute/clavier to 12 tone equal temp cause
> that's how lutes were tuned...Hstick

Umm...why would he try to simulate a lute temperament (specifically 12TET) with his Lautenwerck [gut-strung harpsichord]? Why not, rather, tune it however it sounded best to him for its own resonances and for the music he would be playing on it?

And yes, I've tried out in concert the way I believe that would have been, with Bach's prelude/fugue/allegro in E-flat. It works spectacularly, with more warmth and character than 12TET. This concert last year:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/2007mar13.htm

Brad Lehman

Perhaps 12TET was common on the lute by Bach's time, but it was fairly
common to approximate other temperaments on the lute by placing the
movable gut frets to unequal divisions. 1/6 comma meantone was/is
pretty common for earlier repertoire...
--
Roger Landes
rwlandes@taosnet.com
Website: http://rogerlandes.com
Bouzouki duo CD: http://janissarystomp.com
ZoukFest World Music Camp, June 8-14th, 2008: http://zoukfest.com

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <microstick@...> wrote:
>
> I'll betcha Bach tuned his lute/clavier to 12 tone equal temp
cause that's how lutes were tuned...Hstick
> myspace.com/microstick
>

Well, I know Bach had jam sessions with SL Weiss (and probably others)...so, why not tweak his axe a bit so it's in tune with Weiss? Makes sense to me; and, I figure Bach was a rather curious feller, and since he loved the sound of the lute so much, why not tune it like the lutenists do, just to hear what it sounds like? Again, makes sense, and no biggie, in my mind...I don't think Bach was the sort of artist who felt like he needed to limit himself in any way...it would only take a few minutes for him to tune in any case. And, after a few mugs of that stout German beer, probably didn't matter much anyway.
Also, I'd like to know more about the earlier lute tunings...Reinhard had a pic of a lute once on the cover of PITCH which was tuned differently from 12; anybody have some info? I know Galileo's dad suggested setting lute frets to 18/17, which is 99 cents, and they may well have fudged that to 100 cents.
Best...Hstick myspace.com/microstick

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "zoukboy_2000" <rwlandes@...> wrote:
>
> Perhaps 12TET was common on the lute by Bach's time, but it was fairly
> common to approximate other temperaments on the lute by placing the
> movable gut frets to unequal divisions. 1/6 comma meantone was/is
> pretty common for earlier repertoire...
> --
> Roger Landes
> rwlandes@...
> Website: http://rogerlandes.com

Any citations / references / evidence for that exact claim? Are there
any historical depictions of lutes with meantone-like fret spacing?

Of course putting the frets to unequal divisions does produce *some*
sort of unequal tuning. Frets could also be angled. Whether the result
is anything like a regular temperament is another question.

The tuning of open strings was, so far as I know (book by Ledbetter on
French Renaissance/Baroque lute and harpsichord music) quite variable,
and mostly not regular, in the sense that the intervals between
successive strings were not the same. For example A-D-f-a-d'-f' or
D-G-c-e-a-d'.
Given this irregularity, unequal fret spacings could produce
significantly different portions of a meantone system on different
strings. To be more precise, some strings would produce enharmonics
which might or might not be musically useful.
For the 1st fret, if some meantone is assumed, you had, say,
Bb-Eb-gb-bb-gb-eb or Eb-Ab-db-f-bb-eb; or A#-D#-f#-a#-d#-f# or
D#-G#-c#-e#-a#-d#. Now a g-flat will not go with the f# produced by
the 4th fret on the D-string, conversely an A# will not go with a Bb
from the 3rd fret on G or 8th fret on D.

None of this is prohibitive, but it would require a lot of care and
attention from both composer and fret-positioner to get everything
lined up within a single composition. Now what happens, let's say, in
another piece when the f strings are tuned up to f#? This 'D major
tuning' was also relatively well known. Or when some other string is
taken up or down a tone or semitone? You would have to recalculate
everything you thought you knew about which enharmonic notes were to
occur on which strings.

The fact that many different tunings of open strings were employed at
the same time, to me, strongly suggests that there was no systematic
inequality of semitones by unequal fret placement. It would just be
too complex to take account of. Unless it can be shown that there was
a well-established convention of unequal fret placement, understood by
both composers and players, rather than ad-hoc tweaking towards what
seems to sound better in this or that chord or piece.
~~~T~~~

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <microstick@> wrote:
> >
> > I'll betcha Bach tuned his lute/clavier to 12 tone equal temp
> cause that's how lutes were tuned...Hstick
> > myspace.com/microstick
> >
>

Sure. Look here:

http://www.luteshop.co.uk/tuning.htm

and here:

http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/fronimo.html
--
Roger Landes
rwlandes@taosnet.com
Website: http://rogerlandes.com
Bouzouki duo CD: http://janissarystomp.com
ZoukFest World Music Camp, June 8-14th, 2008: http://zoukfest.com

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@...> wrote:
>
>
> Any citations / references / evidence for that exact claim? Are
> there any historical depictions of lutes with meantone-like fret
> spacing?

<snip>

> ~~~T~~~

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "zoukboy_2000" <rwlandes@> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps 12TET was common on the lute by Bach's time, but it was fairly
> > common to approximate other temperaments on the lute by placing the
> > movable gut frets to unequal divisions. 1/6 comma meantone was/is
> > pretty common for earlier repertoire...
> > --
> > Roger Landes
> > rwlandes@
> > Website: http://rogerlandes.com
>
>
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <microstick@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'll betcha Bach tuned his lute/clavier to 12 tone equal temp
> > cause that's how lutes were tuned...Hstick
> > > myspace.com/microstick
> > >
> >
>