MIDI single note tuning change (real-time) - Istruments?

Hi to all,

Sorry to interrupt your most interesting debate about tunings and
temperaments with a much more mundane question, but on topic I think.

In the MMA specification
http://www.midi.org/about-midi/tuning_extens.shtml
there is talk of a standard for making tiny adjustments to midi
instrument note tuning without using the dreaded and clumsy pitch bend
method, in "real time". Does anyone have any information about any
instruments specifically sound modules that implement this standard?
Most I have come across (a limited number) don't. Yamaha XG, Roland GS.

In hope,
John Garside.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "John Garside" <garsidejl@...> wrote:
>
> Hi to all,
>
> Sorry to interrupt your most interesting debate about tunings and
> temperaments with a much more mundane question, but on topic I think.
>
> In the MMA specification
> http://www.midi.org/about-midi/tuning_extens.shtml
> there is talk of a standard for making tiny adjustments to midi
> instrument note tuning without using the dreaded and clumsy pitch bend
> method, in "real time". Does anyone have any information about any
> instruments specifically sound modules that implement this standard?
> Most I have come across (a limited number) don't. Yamaha XG, Roland GS.
>
> In hope,
> John Garside.
>
Just looking at the spec again (CA-021, RP-020) I realise that I
should have pointed you at the following page instead:
http://www.midi.org/about-midi/tuning-scale.shtml
and specified:
MESSAGE #3 [UNIVERSAL REAL-TIME SYSEX]
Scale/Octave Tuning 2-Byte Form (Real-Time)

In the forlorn hope that there'ssomeone out there who knows whether
any manufacturer implements this MIDI message type.

John Garside.

John Garside wrote:

> Just looking at the spec again (CA-021, RP-020) I realise that I
> should have pointed you at the following page instead:
> http://www.midi.org/about-midi/tuning-scale.shtml
> and specified: > MESSAGE #3 [UNIVERSAL REAL-TIME SYSEX]
> Scale/Octave Tuning 2-Byte Form (Real-Time)
> > In the forlorn hope that there'ssomeone out there who knows whether
> any manufacturer implements this MIDI message type.

The list should be here:

http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com/

although I'm not reaching it now. I doubt any hardware synths support this, anyway, but soft synths are more flexible.

We generally prefer full scale tunings in these parts and I believe Scala makes use of the single note retunings.

Graham

> I doubt any hardware
> synths support this, anyway,

Several Waldorf and Access instruments are supposed to
accept the single-note retune.

> but soft synths are more flexible.

Not necessarily.

> We generally prefer full scale tunings in these parts and I
> believe Scala makes use of the single note retunings.

Scala isn't a synth.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> > I doubt any hardware
> > synths support this, anyway,
>
> Several Waldorf and Access instruments are supposed to
> accept the single-note retune.
>
> > but soft synths are more flexible.
>
> Not necessarily.
>
> > We generally prefer full scale tunings in these parts and I
> > believe Scala makes use of the single note retunings.
>
> Scala isn't a synth.
>
> -Carl
>
Further to checking out the Access and Waldorf web sites they seem, at
least currently, to be producing synthesisers no doubt for the current
"dance music" craze. No more conventional sample based sound module in
sight unfortunately. Is there perhaps some software that allows VST
samples to be micro tuned via MIDI?

Many thanks,
Best regards,
John Garside.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> > I doubt any hardware
> > synths support this, anyway,
>
> Several Waldorf and Access instruments are supposed to
> accept the single-note retune.
>
> > but soft synths are more flexible.
>
> Not necessarily.
>
> > We generally prefer full scale tunings in these parts and I
> > believe Scala makes use of the single note retunings.
>
> Scala isn't a synth.
>
> -Carl
>
Very many thanks for the links, I already know and use Scala but as
pointed out it just works out the scales for you and can give you a
file which can be input into a pitch bend retuning program. And I'd
already investigated the other links some years ago. But it's a major
pain having to move all the notes of the octave into different
tracks/channels. Besides which, one has then used 12 of the 16
available MIDI channels.

Of course I am talking about full scale tunings too but being able to
set them on a note by note basis and, most importantly, by using a TWO
byte field. This would allow a degree of accuracy considerably greater
than the rather meagre 1 cent of standard MIDI tuning and better than
pitch bending. As has been pointed out by many, more erudite and
professional than I, for accuracy when playing chords, two decimal
places of cents is really needed even to these amateur ears.

Most manufacturers don't even bother answer the queries when asked but
I'll try Waldorf and Access. Thank you.

Perhaps I'll ask the MMA to ask the manufacturers. One must live in hope!

Many thanks, best regards,
John Garside.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "John Garside" <garsidejl@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@> wrote:
> >
> > > I doubt any hardware
> > > synths support this, anyway,
> >
> > Several Waldorf and Access instruments are supposed to
> > accept the single-note retune.
> >
> > > but soft synths are more flexible.
> >
> > Not necessarily.
> >
> > > We generally prefer full scale tunings in these parts and I
> > > believe Scala makes use of the single note retunings.
> >
> > Scala isn't a synth.
> >
> > -Carl
> >
> Further to checking out the Access and Waldorf web sites they
> seem, at least currently, to be producing synthesisers no doubt
> for the current "dance music" craze.

By "current", do you mean "7 years since"?

> No more conventional sample based sound module in
> sight unfortunately.

So samplers are now "conventional"? Waldorf and Access
both got their start emulating the original analog synths
of the '60s and '70s. Hardware samplers are more of a
rarity at the high end because it is even harder to compete
with personal computer hardware in this domain.

> Is there perhaps some software that allows VST
> samples to be micro tuned via MIDI?

I don't know what a VST sample is, but there are software
samplers that support microtuning (Kontakt and Wusikstation
come to mind).

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "John Garside" <garsidejl@...> wrote:
>
> > > I doubt any hardware
> > > synths support this, anyway,
> >
> > Several Waldorf and Access instruments are supposed to
> > accept the single-note retune.
> >
> > > but soft synths are more flexible.
> >
> > Not necessarily.
> >
> > > We generally prefer full scale tunings in these parts and I
> > > believe Scala makes use of the single note retunings.
> >
> > Scala isn't a synth.

> Very many thanks for the links, I already know and use Scala but
> as pointed out it just works out the scales for you and can give
> you a file which can be input into a pitch bend retuning program.

It does more than that. It is itself a pitchbend retuner
(both in realtime on MIDI streams and as a post-processor
on MIDI files). It can also send MIDI sysex retuning messages
to a number of supported synths (see the Scala documentation).

> But it's a major
> pain having to move all the notes of the octave into different
> tracks/channels.

Scala does that automatically.

> Besides which, one has then used 12 of the 16
> available MIDI channels.

Correct.

> Of course I am talking about full scale tunings too but being
> able to set them on a note by note basis and, most importantly,
> by using a TWO byte field. This would allow a degree of
> accuracy considerably greater than the rather meagre 1 cent
> of standard MIDI tuning and better than pitch bending

The MIDI Tuning Standard has a 3-byte frequency data word,
which gives better than .01 cents resolution according to the
spec.

Just because you have a message, though, doesn't mean the
synthesis algorithm can give you that kind of resolution.

> As has been pointed out by many, more erudite and
> professional than I, for accuracy when playing chords, two
> decimal places of cents is really needed even to these
> amateur ears.

I don't agree with that, but MTS does provide it.

> Most manufacturers don't even bother answer the queries when
> asked

That is a pain.

> but I'll try Waldorf and Access. Thank you.

The claim is that they support
SINGLE NOTE TUNING CHANGE (REAL-TIME)
described here:
http://www.midi.org/about-midi/tuning_extens.shtml

> Perhaps I'll ask the MMA to ask the manufacturers. One must
> live in hope!

The MMA should publish a list of manufacturers who have
pledged support for certain parts of the standard. Perhaps
we could petition them to do so.

-Carl

Doesn't roland gs support sysex tuning? I know it's only 12 notes.

Joe

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "John Garside" <garsidejl@...> wrote:
>
> Hi to all,
>
> Sorry to interrupt your most interesting debate about tunings and
> temperaments with a much more mundane question, but on topic I think.
>
> In the MMA specification
> http://www.midi.org/about-midi/tuning_extens.shtml
> there is talk of a standard for making tiny adjustments to midi
> instrument note tuning without using the dreaded and clumsy pitch bend
> method, in "real time". Does anyone have any information about any
> instruments specifically sound modules that implement this standard?
> Most I have come across (a limited number) don't. Yamaha XG, Roland GS.
>
> In hope,
> John Garside.
>

Joe wrote:
> Doesn't roland gs support sysex tuning? I know it's only 12 notes.

I believe so, but not according to the standard, and not in real time.

Graham

Correct. Or at least it's that way for many Roland synths including the
EXR series (I have an EXR-40 OR, so I'm most familiar with that one).

In Scala, set User Options > MIDI > Synthesizer Tuning Options (SEND) to
"option 127: MIDI Tuning Standard octave tuning non-realtime (12
tones)", but you might need "109: Roland GS & JV/XP families (12
tones)", or something else depending on what you use. I don't know which
uses which, however.

~D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Breed <gbreed@gmail.com>
Reply-To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: MIDI single note tuning change (real-time) -
Istruments?
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 14:40:34 +0800

Joe wrote:
> Doesn't roland gs support sysex tuning? I know it's only 12 notes.

I believe so, but not according to the standard, and not in
real time.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:
>
> Joe wrote:
> > Doesn't roland gs support sysex tuning? I know it's only 12 notes.
>
> I believe so, but not according to the standard, and not in
> real time.
>

Well, it will depend upon the instrument (synth, sound module etc.)
and it does seem, at least for some devices, that it conforms to the
single byte tuning standard (actually just 7 bits). The product I'm
referring to is the SC-8850 but one could reasonably expect modules
from 1999 on to conform. It allows one to adjust a table of 12 notes C
to B each by -63, through zero, to +64 cents and to define which of
the 16 MIDI channels will be affected by such retunings by setting a
bit for any channel. It appears that there is just one such table
within the unit.

In this it is very similar to some Yamaha XG instruments that give the
same control but do it via an XG SysEx message.

JohnG.

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@> wrote:

> By "current", do you mean "7 years since"?

Yes. Or indeed slightly longer. I think my children, to my shame,
began to listen the this stuff in the early to mid 90s. Thankfully
they are now recovering and even took me to see Turandot last year!
Not, I should add, one of my Puccini favourites but the nevertheless
worth seeing at the ROH.

> So samplers are now "conventional"? Waldorf and Access
> both got their start emulating the original analog synths
> of the '60s and '70s. Hardware samplers are more of a
> rarity at the high end because it is even harder to compete
> with personal computer hardware in this domain.

I don't think I said that samplers are conventional. No, I'm not
talking samplers nor how Waldorf or Access started, merely what one
reads in their current product line up on their web pages. What I am
referring to is the sort of instrument, usually ROM sample based like
the Yamaha MU128 or the Roland SC-8850, that might allow one to create
"conventional" orchestral sounds (albeit based, in the late 90s, on
small samples) but allow one to experiment with micro tunings or
temperaments.

>
> > Is there perhaps some software that allows VST
> > samples to be micro tuned via MIDI?
>
> I don't know what a VST sample is, but there are software
> samplers that support microtuning (Kontakt and Wusikstation
> come to mind).

Thank you for those too. Maybe I'm using the wrong term here or my
usage of the acronym is incorrect or shortened beyond recognition. VST
(as I see it) is a technology that allows one to use add on or, more
correctly "plug in" software modules to a program such as a sequencer,
originally Cubase from Steinberg. Frequently, it seems, that these
allow one, via such a plug in, to add libraries of samples of
orchestral instruments as well as others. The Garritan and EastWest
libraries come to mind as examples and I believe EW uses the Native
Instruments software plug in. Whilst these are, to my mind, excellent
and, to me at least, amazing sample libraries, they lack the degree of
spontaneity that can be achieved whilst accompanying live performers
using what I refer to as a conventional "sound module". MIDI was, at
least as I see it, primarily designed to allow the control of
electronic instruments in "real time". I do accept that it is now used
for things as mundane as ring tones on mobile phones with downloadable
sounds today!

It seems to me that the current trend towards creating music using
sample based RAM or HDD based samples is more focussed towards a
finished product such as a CD or film. The latest trend is to a multi
computer LAN based studio with terabytes(?) of samples spread across
many hard drives. Not conducive to producing music live IMHO.

Anyway the question was more about the availability of sound modules,
as distinct from a synthesiser, that support the MTS by providing more
than a single byte of tuning change data.

JohnG.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "John Garside" <garsidejl@> wrote:
> >
> > > > I doubt any hardware
> > > > synths support this, anyway,
> > >
> > > Several Waldorf and Access instruments are supposed to
> > > accept the single-note retune.
> > >
> > > > but soft synths are more flexible.
> > >
> > > Not necessarily.
> > >
> > > > We generally prefer full scale tunings in these parts and I
> > > > believe Scala makes use of the single note retunings.
> > >
> > > Scala isn't a synth.
>
> > Very many thanks for the links, I already know and use Scala but
> > as pointed out it just works out the scales for you and can give
> > you a file which can be input into a pitch bend retuning program.
>
> It does more than that. It is itself a pitchbend retuner
> (both in realtime on MIDI streams and as a post-processor
> on MIDI files). It can also send MIDI sysex retuning messages
> to a number of supported synths (see the Scala documentation).
>
> > But it's a major
> > pain having to move all the notes of the octave into different
> > tracks/channels.
>
> Scala does that automatically.
>
> > Besides which, one has then used 12 of the 16
> > available MIDI channels.
>
> Correct.
>
> > Of course I am talking about full scale tunings too but being
> > able to set them on a note by note basis and, most importantly,
> > by using a TWO byte field. This would allow a degree of
> > accuracy considerably greater than the rather meagre 1 cent
> > of standard MIDI tuning and better than pitch bending
>
> The MIDI Tuning Standard has a 3-byte frequency data word,
> which gives better than .01 cents resolution according to the
> spec.
>
> Just because you have a message, though, doesn't mean the
> synthesis algorithm can give you that kind of resolution.
>
> > As has been pointed out by many, more erudite and
> > professional than I, for accuracy when playing chords, two
> > decimal places of cents is really needed even to these
> > amateur ears.
>
> I don't agree with that, but MTS does provide it.
>
> > Most manufacturers don't even bother answer the queries when
> > asked
>
> That is a pain.
>
> > but I'll try Waldorf and Access. Thank you.
>
> The claim is that they support
> SINGLE NOTE TUNING CHANGE (REAL-TIME)
> described here:
> http://www.midi.org/about-midi/tuning_extens.shtml
>
> > Perhaps I'll ask the MMA to ask the manufacturers. One must
> > live in hope!
>
> The MMA should publish a list of manufacturers who have
> pledged support for certain parts of the standard. Perhaps
> we could petition them to do so.
>
> -Carl
>
Thank you for your response, yes actually I am reasonably familiar
with Scala and for use in experimentation it is a fine tool. I'm
really looking for something that allows me to make fine adjustments
in a more real time environment. I shall ask the MMA whether they have
such a list and report back.

JohnG.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "John Garside" <garsidejl@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@> wrote:
>
> > By "current", do you mean "7 years since"?
>
> Yes. Or indeed slightly longer. I think my children, to my shame,
> began to listen the this stuff in the early to mid 90s. Thankfully
> they are now recovering and even took me to see Turandot last year!
> Not, I should add, one of my Puccini favourites but the nevertheless
> worth seeing at the ROH.

:) I don't think it was ever as popular in the U.S. as in
Europe. San Francisco was apparently the capital of it here.
In 2000, my coworkers would go to a dance hall every Thursday
and Friday. It was off like a switch after 9/11. Remarkable
to see for the first time as an adult the caprice of music
fashion.

> > > Is there perhaps some software that allows VST
> > > samples to be micro tuned via MIDI?
> >
> > I don't know what a VST sample is, but there are software
> > samplers that support microtuning (Kontakt and Wusikstation
> > come to mind).
>
> Thank you for those too. Maybe I'm using the wrong term here
> or my usage of the acronym is incorrect or shortened beyond
> recognition. VST (as I see it) is a technology that allows
> one to use add on or, more correctly "plug in" software modules
> to a program such as a sequencer, originally Cubase from
> Steinberg.

Correct. But it's the sampler synth that gets plugged in,
not the samples themselves. The samples are sold in different
file formats which can be opened by the sampler synths.

> Whilst these are, to my mind, excellent
> and, to me at least, amazing sample libraries, they lack the
> degree of spontaneity that can be achieved whilst accompanying
> live performers using what I refer to as a conventional
> "sound module". MIDI was, at least as I see it, primarily
> designed to allow the control of electronic instruments in
> "real time". I do accept that it is now used for things as
> mundane as ring tones on mobile phones with downloadable
> sounds today!

VST instruments are most certainly used for real time performance!

> It seems to me that the current trend towards creating music using
> sample based RAM or HDD based samples is more focussed towards a
> finished product such as a CD or film.

Not at all. Computers on stage are becoming the norm.
If you prefer, you can get something like this:

http://www.museresearch.com

> The latest trend is to a multi computer LAN based studio with
> terabytes(?) of samples spread across many hard drives. Not
> conducive to producing music live IMHO.

You can do just fine with a modern laptop. Just be sure to
get a 7200rpm HDD.

> Anyway the question was more about the availability of sound
> modules, as distinct from a synthesiser, that support the MTS
> by providing more than a single byte of tuning change data.

I don't know of any hardware sound modules that support MTS,
but they probably exist.

-Carl

I believe the MOTM modular synthesizer Robert Rich uses support the
midi tuning standard (since he wrote it.), but they're expensive.

Joe

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "John Garside" <garsidejl@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@> wrote:
>
> > By "current", do you mean "7 years since"?
>
> Yes. Or indeed slightly longer. I think my children, to my shame,
> began to listen the this stuff in the early to mid 90s. Thankfully
> they are now recovering and even took me to see Turandot last year!
> Not, I should add, one of my Puccini favourites but the nevertheless
> worth seeing at the ROH.
>
> > So samplers are now "conventional"? Waldorf and Access
> > both got their start emulating the original analog synths
> > of the '60s and '70s. Hardware samplers are more of a
> > rarity at the high end because it is even harder to compete
> > with personal computer hardware in this domain.
>
> I don't think I said that samplers are conventional. No, I'm not
> talking samplers nor how Waldorf or Access started, merely what one
> reads in their current product line up on their web pages. What I am
> referring to is the sort of instrument, usually ROM sample based like
> the Yamaha MU128 or the Roland SC-8850, that might allow one to create
> "conventional" orchestral sounds (albeit based, in the late 90s, on
> small samples) but allow one to experiment with micro tunings or
> temperaments.
>
> >
> > > Is there perhaps some software that allows VST
> > > samples to be micro tuned via MIDI?
> >
> > I don't know what a VST sample is, but there are software
> > samplers that support microtuning (Kontakt and Wusikstation
> > come to mind).
>
> Thank you for those too. Maybe I'm using the wrong term here or my
> usage of the acronym is incorrect or shortened beyond recognition. VST
> (as I see it) is a technology that allows one to use add on or, more
> correctly "plug in" software modules to a program such as a sequencer,
> originally Cubase from Steinberg. Frequently, it seems, that these
> allow one, via such a plug in, to add libraries of samples of
> orchestral instruments as well as others. The Garritan and EastWest
> libraries come to mind as examples and I believe EW uses the Native
> Instruments software plug in. Whilst these are, to my mind, excellent
> and, to me at least, amazing sample libraries, they lack the degree of
> spontaneity that can be achieved whilst accompanying live performers
> using what I refer to as a conventional "sound module". MIDI was, at
> least as I see it, primarily designed to allow the control of
> electronic instruments in "real time". I do accept that it is now used
> for things as mundane as ring tones on mobile phones with downloadable
> sounds today!
>
> It seems to me that the current trend towards creating music using
> sample based RAM or HDD based samples is more focussed towards a
> finished product such as a CD or film. The latest trend is to a multi
> computer LAN based studio with terabytes(?) of samples spread across
> many hard drives. Not conducive to producing music live IMHO.
>
> Anyway the question was more about the availability of sound modules,
> as distinct from a synthesiser, that support the MTS by providing more
> than a single byte of tuning change data.
>
> JohnG.
>

The following missive arrived in my inbox today, which could have
significant effects upon how previously recorded and/or mixed audio
material may be able to be retuned microtonally.

Comments welcomed.

Dear Charles Lucy,

As you know, we are constantly developing Melodyne further in order to make the software still better and more powerful for you. Today, at
the International Musikmesse in Frankfurt, we were delighted to be
able to demonstrate a major stride in that development, which, since
you are a Melodyne customer, we would like to tell you about: Direct
Note Access. This new technology will remove what is currently a
decisive limitation of Melodyne: Direct Note Access makes it possible
for the first time to edit individual notes in polyphonic audio
material. Intervene in the chords within your recording and edit the
individual notes of which they are composed using the familiar
Melodyne tools! The application possibilities range from the simple
correction of errors to the complete refashioning of harmonies and
timing. The first product to offer the revolutionary Direct Note
Access technology will be Melodyne plugin 2, which is scheduled for
release in the Fall. Find out more from the detailed film on our web
site:
http://www.celemony.com/dna.

Naturally, as a user of Melodyne studio 3, you too can update your
free Melodyne plugin to Version 2. The update will cost 129 € /129 US
$. We will keep you informed, and you know as soon as a public beta
version of Melodyne plugin 2 with Direct Note Access is available.

Kindest regards
All at Celemony

Charles Lucy
lucy@lucytune.com

- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -

for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com

For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Melodyne has always been state-of-the-art. Great news!

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
>
> The following missive arrived in my inbox today, which could have
> significant effects upon how previously recorded and/or mixed audio
> material may be able to be retuned microtonally.
>
> Comments welcomed.
>
> Dear Charles Lucy,
>
> As you know, we are constantly developing Melodyne further in
> order to make the software still better and more powerful for
> you. Today, at the International Musikmesse in Frankfurt, we
> were delighted to be able to demonstrate a major stride in that
> development, which, since you are a Melodyne customer, we would
> like to tell you about: Direct Note Access. This new technology
> will remove what is currently a decisive limitation of Melodyne:
> Direct Note Access makes it possible for the first time to edit
> individual notes in polyphonic audio material. Intervene in the
> chords within your recording and edit the individual notes of
> which they are composed using the familiar Melodyne tools! The
> application possibilities range from the simple correction of
> errors to the complete refashioning of harmonies and timing. The
> first product to offer the revolutionary Direct Note Access
> technology will be Melodyne plugin 2, which is scheduled for
> release in the Fall. Find out more from the detailed film on our
> web site:
> http://www.celemony.com/dna.
>

This is a cross post from the Logic list.

I have been waiting for more than twenty years for this technology to become practical.

So in the last quarter of 2008, we will be able to easily LucyTune all those 20th century recordings, as well as continuing to use it for all our new productions.

And who is going to want to buy the new 21st century LucyTuned versions of the old vinyl favorites, which will be delivered via the net in surround or binaural mp3's or better?

Who re-bought their record collection on the "new" CD format?

(Every punter on the planet?)

If you change the tuning, does it change the copyright?

After all it does become at least a new arrangement, and many of the early tracks are already falling out of copyright

That'll keep a few intellectual property lawyers busy for years.

Maybe 12 note equal temperament will become the domain of nostalgia enthusiasts, like the vinyl fans or the early music devotees;-)

I can see the Melodyne plans opening some very lucrative cans of fermenting worms.

Dream on Lucy;-)

<start quote> I don't think we should be taken in until we have seen its use on a
variety of source material. I can't believe it can work on all
different types of source material. If so you could retune a whole
completed mix - that really isn't ever gonna happen (I hope).

Let's be clear that this could also be a really bad thing for how
music sounds - imagine that "autotune" sound on everything we hear on
the radio on EVERY INSTRUMENT... ON EVERY NOTE.

Tony<end quote>
On 12 Mar 2008, at 21:09, Carl Lumma wrote:

> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Melodyne has always been state-of-the-art. Great news!
>
> -Carl
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
> >
> > The following missive arrived in my inbox today, which could have
> > significant effects upon how previously recorded and/or mixed audio
> > material may be able to be retuned microtonally.
> >
> > Comments welcomed.
> >
> > Dear Charles Lucy,
> >
> > As you know, we are constantly developing Melodyne further in
> > order to make the software still better and more powerful for
> > you. Today, at the International Musikmesse in Frankfurt, we
> > were delighted to be able to demonstrate a major stride in that
> > development, which, since you are a Melodyne customer, we would
> > like to tell you about: Direct Note Access. This new technology
> > will remove what is currently a decisive limitation of Melodyne:
> > Direct Note Access makes it possible for the first time to edit
> > individual notes in polyphonic audio material. Intervene in the
> > chords within your recording and edit the individual notes of
> > which they are composed using the familiar Melodyne tools! The
> > application possibilities range from the simple correction of
> > errors to the complete refashioning of harmonies and timing. The
> > first product to offer the revolutionary Direct Note Access
> > technology will be Melodyne plugin 2, which is scheduled for
> > release in the Fall. Find out more from the detailed film on our
> > web site:
> > http://www.celemony.com/dna.
> >
>
>
>
Charles Lucy
lucy@lucytune.com

- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -

for information on LucyTuning go to:
http://www.lucytune.com

For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> :) I don't think it was ever as popular in the U.S. as in
> Europe. San Francisco was apparently the capital of it here.
> In 2000, my coworkers would go to a dance hall every Thursday
> and Friday. It was off like a switch after 9/11. Remarkable
> to see for the first time as an adult the caprice of music
> fashion.
>

How interesting that there should be such a reaction! Lucky you! AFAIK
it is still going strong in the UK and, of course, it continues to
persist with the "boy racers" who like to damage their hearing inside
their cars and subject those outside to "the drums of doom".

>
> Correct. But it's the sampler synth that gets plugged in,
> not the samples themselves. The samples are sold in different
> file formats which can be opened by the sampler synths.

Indeed. I have EastWest symphonic orchestra silver pro edition, with
thoughts, if not current budget, to upgrade to the Gold pro. I suspect
that I need to do some more investigation with the package and
Kontakt. My problem has been, so far, that 16 channels of MIDI is
generally insufficient to reproduce accurately a good quality
orchestral sound without mixing some of it down to an audio track. One
often doesn't know until the event exactly who is going to turn up on
the day (we're talking mostly amateur productions here mostly outside
of the confines of an academic influence) so pre-mixing may result in
the inclusion of instruments present or not on the day. The beauty of
having it all MIDI is that one can just mute the channels of the
musicians present. The last (current) major project was "Si. Mi
chiamano Mimi". But I've also worked on other arias and cantatas as
well as Lieder and operetta.

But I feel I'm now going off topic.

>
> VST instruments are most certainly used for real time performance!
> Computers on stage are becoming the norm.
> If you prefer, you can get something like this:
>
> http://www.museresearch.com

Thanks for that link. A very interesting "piece of kit". Sadly
currently outside my budget.

>
> You can do just fine with a modern laptop. Just be sure to
> get a 7200rpm HDD.

Yes, my old laptop (Win2k) is creaking at the joints now and the EW
samples and Cubase and Kontakt make it look more than a little slow.
Time to find some funds. (Looks up address of local bank and checks
and oils shotgun!!!!!! ;-) Just in case ... I'm joking!!)

>
> I don't know of any hardware sound modules that support MTS,
> but they probably exist.

Mmmm! I'm not so sure they do. It seems that both Roland and Yamaha
(the main players in this area) stopped making, or redesigning new
versions of, the sort of devices that were common at one time in a
home studio. Again I'm talking about devices like the MU128 and the
SC-8850. The market started to change to soft based solutions in the
early part of the millennium.

Perhaps I've got some catching up to do! Maybe I have to bite the
bullet and go completely soft with a new much more powerful laptop
plus a 24 bit sound card. EW Gold pro contains 24 bit samples I'm
informed.

Very many thanks for your answers here Carl, they've been most helpful.

Best regards,
JohnG.

BTW I've emailed the MMA requesting information and will report back
if anyone else is interested. Whether or not they reply.

This tech intrigues me! But how's the audio fidelity?
Are there "artifacts"--(as in glitches)?

It would be great to hear it--can you or can someone
else post a link to some audio files--especially with
dense textures?

Sorry if I missed some previous post with that
info--in that case, just point me to it.

--- Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com> wrote:

> This is a cross post from the Logic list.
>
> I have been waiting for more than twenty years for
> this technology to
> become practical.
>
> So in the last quarter of 2008, we will be able to
> easily LucyTune all
> those 20th century recordings, as well as continuing
> to use it for all
> our new productions.
>
> And who is going to want to buy the new 21st century
> LucyTuned
> versions of the old vinyl favorites, which will be
> delivered via the
> net in surround or binaural mp3's or better?
>
> Who re-bought their record collection on the "new"
> CD format?
>
> (Every punter on the planet?)
>
>
> If you change the tuning, does it change the
> copyright?
>
> After all it does become at least a new arrangement,
> and many of the
> early tracks are already falling out of copyright
>
> That'll keep a few intellectual property lawyers
> busy for years.
>
> Maybe 12 note equal temperament will become the
> domain of nostalgia
> enthusiasts, like the vinyl fans or the early music
> devotees;-)
>
> I can see the Melodyne plans opening some very
> lucrative cans of
> fermenting worms.
>
> Dream on Lucy;-)
>
>
>
> <start quote> I don't think we should be taken in
> until we have seen
> its use on a
> variety of source material. I can't believe it can
> work on all
> different types of source material. If so you could
> retune a whole
> completed mix - that really isn't ever gonna happen
> (I hope).
>
> Let's be clear that this could also be a really bad
> thing for how
> music sounds - imagine that "autotune" sound on
> everything we hear on
> the radio on EVERY INSTRUMENT... ON EVERY NOTE.
>
> Tony<end quote>
> On 12 Mar 2008, at 21:09, Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > Melodyne has always been state-of-the-art. Great
> news!
> >
> > -Carl
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy
> <lucy@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > The following missive arrived in my inbox today,
> which could have
> > > significant effects upon how previously recorded
> and/or mixed audio
> > > material may be able to be retuned microtonally.
> > >
> > > Comments welcomed.
> > >
> > > Dear Charles Lucy,
> > >
> > > As you know, we are constantly developing
> Melodyne further in
> > > order to make the software still better and more
> powerful for
> > > you. Today, at the International Musikmesse in
> Frankfurt, we
> > > were delighted to be able to demonstrate a major
> stride in that
> > > development, which, since you are a Melodyne
> customer, we would
> > > like to tell you about: Direct Note Access. This
> new technology
> > > will remove what is currently a decisive
> limitation of Melodyne:
> > > Direct Note Access makes it possible for the
> first time to edit
> > > individual notes in polyphonic audio material.
> Intervene in the
> > > chords within your recording and edit the
> individual notes of
> > > which they are composed using the familiar
> Melodyne tools! The
> > > application possibilities range from the simple
> correction of
> > > errors to the complete refashioning of harmonies
> and timing. The
> > > first product to offer the revolutionary Direct
> Note Access
> > > technology will be Melodyne plugin 2, which is
> scheduled for
> > > release in the Fall. Find out more from the
> detailed film on our
> > > web site:
> > > http://www.celemony.com/dna.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Charles Lucy
> lucy@lucytune.com
>
> - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
>
> for information on LucyTuning go to:
> http://www.lucytune.com
>
> For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
>
>
>

> > Correct. But it's the sampler synth that gets plugged in,
> > not the samples themselves. The samples are sold in different
> > file formats which can be opened by the sampler synths.
>
> Indeed. I have EastWest symphonic orchestra silver pro edition,
> with thoughts, if not current budget, to upgrade to the Gold pro.
> I suspect that I need to do some more investigation with the
> package and Kontakt. My problem has been, so far, that 16 channels
> of MIDI is generally insufficient to reproduce accurately a good
> quality orchestral sound without mixing some of it down to an
> audio track. One often doesn't know until the event exactly who
> is going to turn up on the day (we're talking mostly amateur
> productions here mostly outside of the confines of an academic
> influence) so pre-mixing may result in the inclusion of
> instruments present or not on the day. The beauty of having it
> all MIDI is that one can just mute the channels of the musicians
> present. The last (current) major project was "Si. Mi
> chiamano Mimi". But I've also worked on other arias and cantatas
> as well as Lieder and operetta.

Er, any modern sequencer will let you have a unlimited
number of tracks, each containing at least one MIDI port
with its 16 channels. I'm fairly certain.

> But I feel I'm now going off topic.

It's definitely on-topic on the makemicromusic list (on
Yahoo groups). There are people there with more brains on
this topic than I.

> > You can do just fine with a modern laptop. Just be sure to
> > get a 7200rpm HDD.
>
> Yes, my old laptop (Win2k) is creaking at the joints now and
> the EW samples and Cubase and Kontakt make it look more than
> a little slow. Time to find some funds.

Yes, without a doubt.

> > I don't know of any hardware sound modules that support MTS,
> > but they probably exist.
>
> Mmmm! I'm not so sure they do. It seems that both Roland and Yamaha
> (the main players in this area) stopped making, or redesigning new
> versions of, the sort of devices that were common at one time in a
> home studio.

Yes. And for people like me who hated the ROMpler days,
it's good riddance!

> Again I'm talking about devices like the MU128 and the
> SC-8850. The market started to change to soft based solutions
> in the early part of the millennium.

Yes. Mostly because those devices sounded terrible, and you
can't be cost-competitive with PCs building a module with enough
RAM to sound as good.

> Perhaps I've got some catching up to do! Maybe I have to bite the
> bullet and go completely soft with a new much more powerful laptop
> plus a 24 bit sound card.

Sound cards are also a bit obsolete these days. Usually one
uses something like

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FastTrackUltra-main.html

> BTW I've emailed the MMA requesting information and will report back
> if anyone else is interested. Whether or not they reply.

Please do.

-Carl

I would love to see what it does with a piece like Xenakis'
Metastaseis :-)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Caleb Morgan <calebmrgn@...> wrote:
>
> This tech intrigues me! But how's the audio fidelity?
> Are there "artifacts"--(as in glitches)?
>
> It would be great to hear it--can you or can someone
> else post a link to some audio files--especially with
> dense textures?
>
> Sorry if I missed some previous post with that
> info--in that case, just point me to it.
>
>
>
> --- Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
>
> > This is a cross post from the Logic list.
> >
> > I have been waiting for more than twenty years for
> > this technology to
> > become practical.
> >
> > So in the last quarter of 2008, we will be able to
> > easily LucyTune all
> > those 20th century recordings, as well as continuing
> > to use it for all
> > our new productions.
> >
> > And who is going to want to buy the new 21st century
> > LucyTuned
> > versions of the old vinyl favorites, which will be
> > delivered via the
> > net in surround or binaural mp3's or better?
> >
> > Who re-bought their record collection on the "new"
> > CD format?
> >
> > (Every punter on the planet?)
> >
> >
> > If you change the tuning, does it change the
> > copyright?
> >
> > After all it does become at least a new arrangement,
> > and many of the
> > early tracks are already falling out of copyright
> >
> > That'll keep a few intellectual property lawyers
> > busy for years.
> >
> > Maybe 12 note equal temperament will become the
> > domain of nostalgia
> > enthusiasts, like the vinyl fans or the early music
> > devotees;-)
> >
> > I can see the Melodyne plans opening some very
> > lucrative cans of
> > fermenting worms.
> >
> > Dream on Lucy;-)
> >
> >
> >
> > <start quote> I don't think we should be taken in
> > until we have seen
> > its use on a
> > variety of source material. I can't believe it can
> > work on all
> > different types of source material. If so you could
> > retune a whole
> > completed mix - that really isn't ever gonna happen
> > (I hope).
> >
> > Let's be clear that this could also be a really bad
> > thing for how
> > music sounds - imagine that "autotune" sound on
> > everything we hear on
> > the radio on EVERY INSTRUMENT... ON EVERY NOTE.
> >
> > Tony<end quote>
> > On 12 Mar 2008, at 21:09, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >
> > > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > >
> > > Melodyne has always been state-of-the-art. Great
> > news!
> > >
> > > -Carl
> > >
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy
> > <lucy@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The following missive arrived in my inbox today,
> > which could have
> > > > significant effects upon how previously recorded
> > and/or mixed audio
> > > > material may be able to be retuned microtonally.
> > > >
> > > > Comments welcomed.
> > > >
> > > > Dear Charles Lucy,
> > > >
> > > > As you know, we are constantly developing
> > Melodyne further in
> > > > order to make the software still better and more
> > powerful for
> > > > you. Today, at the International Musikmesse in
> > Frankfurt, we
> > > > were delighted to be able to demonstrate a major
> > stride in that
> > > > development, which, since you are a Melodyne
> > customer, we would
> > > > like to tell you about: Direct Note Access. This
> > new technology
> > > > will remove what is currently a decisive
> > limitation of Melodyne:
> > > > Direct Note Access makes it possible for the
> > first time to edit
> > > > individual notes in polyphonic audio material.
> > Intervene in the
> > > > chords within your recording and edit the
> > individual notes of
> > > > which they are composed using the familiar
> > Melodyne tools! The
> > > > application possibilities range from the simple
> > correction of
> > > > errors to the complete refashioning of harmonies
> > and timing. The
> > > > first product to offer the revolutionary Direct
> > Note Access
> > > > technology will be Melodyne plugin 2, which is
> > scheduled for
> > > > release in the Fall. Find out more from the
> > detailed film on our
> > > > web site:
> > > > http://www.celemony.com/dna.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Charles Lucy
> > lucy@...
> >
> > - Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -
> >
> > for information on LucyTuning go to:
> > http://www.lucytune.com
> >
> > For LucyTuned Lullabies go to:
> > http://www.lullabies.co.uk
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Er, any modern sequencer will let you have a unlimited
> number of tracks, each containing at least one MIDI port
> with its 16 channels. I'm fairly certain.
>

Oh yes! Number of tracks often 100 or more. But when you're limited to
16 MIDI channels ... ! That was one of the better things about the
MU128, 4 sets of 16 MIDI channels via the "to-host" adapter, even
better on the MU1000 and SC-8850 via USB as there was more bandwidth.
Plus sockets for plug in hardware on the MU series.

> It's definitely on-topic on the makemicromusic list (on
> Yahoo groups). There are people there with more brains on
> this topic than I.

I'll try going to that list and seeing what I can pick up. Thanks for
the link.

>
> > > You can do just fine with a modern laptop. Just be sure to
> > > get a 7200rpm HDD.

BTW do they make 7200 rpm drives for laptops? I thought 5400 was the
maximum in 2.5" format. Looking at laptops and asking a few suppliers
it seems impossible to buy a PC based one without the dreaded latest
version of an operating system to terrible to even mention. So perhaps
it's time for me to build another DAW but on a smaller, more
portable, ultra quiet, scale.
>
> Yes. And for people like me who hated the ROMpler days,
> it's good riddance!

Well, I have a setup that includes 3 of the above devices plus 5
plug-in cards and I'm still somewhat reluctant to let them go. But
perhaps it's "time to be dragged kicking and screaming" into the 21st
century!
>
> Yes. Mostly because those devices sounded terrible, and you
> can't be cost-competitive with PCs building a module with enough
> RAM to sound as good.

Certainly agreed about modern PCs. Sigh. I remember my first 286 based
monster with a pitiful amount of RAM 20 meg drive etc. etc. It doesn't
seem so long ago. I guess it's just that I've got used to using the
sound modules and the thought of going through the learning process
again doesn't appeal hugely. But I suppose the MIDI programming skills
will cross platforms and the quality of samples, especially
orchestral, is so vastly improved. (Bites bullet!)

"Sound terrible" well, certainly if not well programmed, that's true,
but they can be made to sound quite acceptable (N.B. not wonderful)
with judicious use of the massive programmability of them (N.B. all in
hardware). It does mean getting to grips with Sys-Ex though. Never a
problem for me as I started my career operating an RCA 301 with an
octal based operators console. 8-}
>
> Sound cards are also a bit obsolete these days. Usually one
> uses something like
>
> http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FastTrackUltra-main.html
>

That looks interesting for recording purposes but it doesn't seem to
give multiple outs. Besides it's yet another external box to get lost
or stolen at a venue. I guess I'll have to do some research for a
decent internal device to go inside a proper PC. At least building a
PC I can gradually add to it and put in multiple drives etc.

> > BTW I've emailed the MMA requesting information and will report back
> > if anyone else is interested. Whether or not they reply.
>
> Please do.

Well, the MMA did respond as follows:

"We do not have the list, and I'm sorry to say we already asked our
members to let us know if they support those messages, but no one has
yet responded. When and if they do, we will post the information to
the Forum.
Regards,
Admin
MMA
www.midi.org"

They don't mention when they asked the question.

Many thanks for your help so far.

Best regards,
JohnG.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "John Garside" <garsidejl@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@> wrote:
> >
> > Er, any modern sequencer will let you have a unlimited
> > number of tracks, each containing at least one MIDI port
> > with its 16 channels. I'm fairly certain.
>
> Oh yes! Number of tracks often 100 or more. But when you're
> limited to 16 MIDI channels ... !

How are you limited to 16 MIDI channels?

> > > > You can do just fine with a modern laptop. Just be sure to
> > > > get a 7200rpm HDD.
>
> BTW do they make 7200 rpm drives for laptops?

Yes. I recommend the Hitachi Travelstar series.

> "Sound terrible" well, certainly if not well programmed,
> that's true, but they can be made to sound quite acceptable
> (N.B. not wonderful) with judicious use of the massive
> programmability of them

I'll believe it when I hear it. :)

> I guess I'll have to do some research for a
> decent internal device to go inside a proper PC.

A few PCI and PCMCIA cards still exist.

-Carl