the new shruti harmonium

Hello ALL, please visit
http://www.22shrutiharmonium.com/index.asp
for the new shruti harmonium and metallophone.
And, listen to all 22 shrutis, too.

Regards,
Haresh.

Quite exciting! exactly what has been needed for a long time!
,',',',Kraig Grady,',',',
'''''''North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
'''''''South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria
',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

-----Original Message-----
From: Haresh BAKSHI [mailto:hareshbakshi@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2008 07:04 AM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [tuning] the new shruti harmonium

Hello ALL, please visit
http://www.22shrutiharmonium.com/index.asp
for the new shruti harmonium and metallophone.
And, listen to all 22 shrutis, too.

Regards,
Haresh.

Haresh,

Thank you for the link. It's wonderful to see and hear
this instrument.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@...> wrote:
>
> Hello ALL, please visit
> http://www.22shrutiharmonium.com/index.asp
> for the new shruti harmonium and metallophone.
> And, listen to all 22 shrutis, too.
>
> Regards,
> Haresh.
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>...wonderful ... instrument.
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@> wrote:
> > http://www.22shrutiharmonium.com/index.asp
> > And, listen to all 22 shrutis, too.
> >
That's for conversion into MIDI-code by:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/scl_format.html

For viewing the spaces in the Scale-file correctly:
Please click on the <RELPY> button.

!Bahratamuni22Shrutis.scl
!
http://www.22shrutiharmonium.com/research_topic_32.asp
! by Dr. Vidyadhar Gopal Oke's (Univ. Mumbai, India) interpretation
22
!
256/243 ! 2: r1 = 2^8/3^5
16/15 ! 3: r2 = 2^4/5/3
10/9 ! 4: R1 = 5*2/3^2
9/8 ! 5: R2 = 3^2/2^3
32/27 ! 6: g1 = 2^5/3^3
6/5 ! 7: g2 = 3*2/5
5/4 ! 8: G1 = 5/2^2
81/64 ! 9: G2 = 3^4/2^6
4/3 ! 10: M1 = 2^2/3
27/10 ! 11: M2 = 3^3/5/2^2
45/32 ! 12: m1 = 5*3^2/2^5
729/512 ! 13: m2 = 3^6/2^9
3/2 ! 14: p
128/81 ! 15: d1 = 2^7/3^4
8/5 ! 16: d2 = 2^3/5
5/3 ! 17: D1
27/16 ! 18: D2 = 3^3/2^4
16/9 ! 19: n1 = 2^4/3^2
9/5 ! 20: n2 = 3^2/2^3
15/8 ! 21: N2 = 5*3/2^3
243/128 ! 22: N2 = 3^5/2^7
2/1
!
! [End_of_file]

not to be confused with the idea of:
http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/22edo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22_equal_temperament

Bosanquet judged about his own 22-EDO approximation the Shrutis in:
http://www.geocities.com/threesixesinarow/hindoo.htm
"It is thus wrong to suppose that the system of 22 would need much
tempering to bring its concords into tune. These are probably quite as
accurate as rough and poorly intoned instruments admit of.
But although the consonance error of fifth and third is small,..."

But meanwhile there arised some doubts about Bosanquet's view,
considering his 22-EDO concept as an obsolescent 19th century theory,
that still persist to remain popular
among occidential culture theorists.

Never the less, imho:
I do prefer the above 5-limit JI classification by Dr. Oke,
as implemeted in his 22-tone/octave reed-organs.

Yours Sincerely
A.S.

For A.S.:

You probably meant 27/20.

Petr

I do not know anywhere where Bosanquet suggested 22 EDO. he was quite biased to linear sequences over equal divisions
Quote from same article

F�tis employs the principle of the comparison of intervals with equal temperament semitones, which is the basis of the writer's methods ; but he uses it only for the purpose of speculating on the connexion between the Hindoo system of /22/ , and a division of the octave into 24, or of each semitone into two equal parts, a comparison by which nothing appears to be gained. The use of the method for instituting comparisons with perfect consonances has escaped him. And yet it appears (F�tis, vol. ii. p. 278) that the vina (the historic instrument of Indian music) is tuned by concords, forming a complete major chord on the open strings. This is enough of itself to suggest the necessity of an inquirey into the relations between the systeme of 22 and /perfect concords/.

Andreas Sparschuh wrote:
>
>
> ! [End_of_file]
>
> not to be confused with the idea of:
> http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/22edo > <http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/22edo>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22_equal_temperament > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22_equal_temperament>
>
> Bosanquet judged about his own 22-EDO approximation the Shrutis in:
> http://www.geocities.com/threesixesinarow/hindoo.htm > <http://www.geocities.com/threesixesinarow/hindoo.htm>
> "It is thus wrong to suppose that the system of 22 would need much
> tempering to bring its concords into tune. These are probably quite as
> accurate as rough and poorly intoned instruments admit of.
> But although the consonance error of fifth and third is small,..."
>
> But meanwhile there arised some doubts about Bosanquet's view,
> considering his 22-EDO concept as an obsolescent 19th century theory,
> that still persist to remain popular
> among occidential culture theorists.
>
> Never the less, imho:
> I do prefer the above 5-limit JI classification by Dr. Oke,
> as implemeted in his 22-tone/octave reed-organs.
>
> Yours Sincerely
> A.S.
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> I do not know anywhere where Bosanquet suggested 22 EDO. he was
> quite biased to linear sequences over equal divisions
> Quote from same article

Bosanquet was well aware of linear temperaments and their
ability to close to equal systems, and in fact examines
22 EDO in depth in the cited article. I'm not sure what you
think he's saying in the text you quoted, but it is nothing
against 22 EDO.

-Carl

he is saying that Fetis is mistaken to associate the 22 ET with a system that is based on concords, he is contrasting them in the case of Indian music.
I know he was aware of various ET, but this was not his a priori way of working.

Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <mailto:tuning%40yahoogroups.com>, Kraig > Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> >
> > I do not know anywhere where Bosanquet suggested 22 EDO. he was
> > quite biased to linear sequences over equal divisions
> > Quote from same article
>
> Bosanquet was well aware of linear temperaments and their
> ability to close to equal systems, and in fact examines
> 22 EDO in depth in the cited article. I'm not sure what you
> think he's saying in the text you quoted, but it is nothing
> against 22 EDO.
>
> -Carl
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Kraig wrote...

> Carl Lumma wrote:
> > Bosanquet was well aware of linear temperaments and their
> > ability to close to equal systems, and in fact examines
> > 22 EDO in depth in the cited article. I'm not sure what you
> > think he's saying in the text you quoted, but it is nothing
> > against 22 EDO.
>
> he is saying that Fetis is mistaken to associate the 22 ET
> with a system that is based on concords, he is contrasting
> them in the case of Indian music. I know he was aware of
> various ET, but this was not his a priori way of working.

Have another look. He's saying Fetis is mistaken for
comparing the Indian system to 12- and 24-tone equal temperament,
rather than to just intonation.

"Fetis employs the principle of the comparison of intervals with
equal temperament semitones, which is the basis of the writer's
methods; but he uses it only for the purpose of speculating on
the connexion between the Hindoo system of 22, and a division of
the octave into 24, or of each semitone into two equal parts, a
comparison by which nothing appears to be gained. The use of the
method for instituting comparisons with perfect consonances has
escaped him. And yet it appears (Fetis, vol. ii. p. 278) that the
vina (the historic instrument of Indian music) is tuned by
concords, forming a complete major chord on the open strings."

-Carl

That said, you're right that EDOs were not Bosanquet's
main way of working. It's his linear approach that is
so historically important. -C.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Kraig wrote...
>
> > Carl Lumma wrote:
> > > Bosanquet was well aware of linear temperaments and their
> > > ability to close to equal systems, and in fact examines
> > > 22 EDO in depth in the cited article. I'm not sure what you
> > > think he's saying in the text you quoted, but it is nothing
> > > against 22 EDO.
> >
> > he is saying that Fetis is mistaken to associate the 22 ET
> > with a system that is based on concords, he is contrasting
> > them in the case of Indian music. I know he was aware of
> > various ET, but this was not his a priori way of working.
>
> Have another look. He's saying Fetis is mistaken for
> comparing the Indian system to 12- and 24-tone equal temperament,
> rather than to just intonation.
>
> "Fetis employs the principle of the comparison of intervals with
> equal temperament semitones, which is the basis of the writer's
> methods; but he uses it only for the purpose of speculating on
> the connexion between the Hindoo system of 22, and a division of
> the octave into 24, or of each semitone into two equal parts, a
> comparison by which nothing appears to be gained. The use of the
> method for instituting comparisons with perfect consonances has
> escaped him. And yet it appears (Fetis, vol. ii. p. 278) that the
> vina (the historic instrument of Indian music) is tuned by
> concords, forming a complete major chord on the open strings."
>
> -Carl

I think this is a wonderful new instrument and I'm delighted to see
it. I hope it will be possible to get my hands on one some day.

Last August there was a discussion on this forum in which I
participated regarding the 22 shrutis used in Indian Raga. I posted
a list of the shrutis, giving the ratios for each, and included some
interesting comments by the great master Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. To my
surprise, I got a LOT of arguments from members of this list about
the correctness of the ratios I gave. Some offered alternative
theoretical systems for calculating the ratios for the 22 shrutis
which, while having a certain theoretical appeal, bore no real-life
relationship to Indian music as it is actually sung and played. The
argument became rather drawn out but ended up going nowhere except to
discourage me from posting on this forum.

I have no intention of rehashing those arguments here. If anyone is
interested they can look up post number 72704 and the replies
following. It's all there.

What moves me to post again now is my gratification at seeing the
list of ratios Dr. Vidyadhar Gopal Oke has employed as the 22 shrutis
in his new instrument, the 22 Shruti Harmonium. I offer my list and
his below for examination by anyone who may be interested. In short,
we're in full agreement on all 22 shrutis. I believe this is a very
strong additional piece of evidence in support of the arguments I
made in the earlier thread cited above. Again, I have no wish to
rehash the old arguments, but I congratulate Dr. Oke on his great new
instrument, and his knowledge, care, and sensitivity in providing all
22 shrutis with precision and accuracy.

Dr. Oke's ratios:

256/243 ! 2: r1 = 2^8/3^5
16/15 ! 3: r2 = 2^4/5/3
10/9 ! 4: R1 = 5*2/3^2
9/8 ! 5: R2 = 3^2/2^3
32/27 ! 6: g1 = 2^5/3^3
6/5 ! 7: g2 = 3*2/5
5/4 ! 8: G1 = 5/2^2
81/64 ! 9: G2 = 3^4/2^6
4/3 ! 10: M1 = 2^2/3
27/20 ! 11: M2 = 3^3/5/2^2
45/32 ! 12: m1 = 5*3^2/2^5
729/512 ! 13: m2 = 3^6/2^9
3/2 ! 14: p
128/81 ! 15: d1 = 2^7/3^4
8/5 ! 16: d2 = 2^3/5
5/3 ! 17: D1
27/16 ! 18: D2 = 3^3/2^4
16/9 ! 19: n1 = 2^4/3^2
9/5 ! 20: n2 = 3^2/2^3
15/8 ! 21: N2 = 5*3/2^3
243/128 ! 22: N2 = 3^5/2^7
2/1

Ratios I gave in post #72704, which match Dr. Oke's list exactly for
the 22 shrutis, but also include three additional shrutis mentioned
by Ali Akbar Khan and whose role in Indian raga is discussed in the
above referenced post. Those are the three "ati ati komals" in the
list below:

Sa (1): [1/1; 000)

komal re (3):
komal re: [16/15; 112]
ati komal re: [256/243; 090]
(ati ati komal re: [25/24; 070])

Re (1 1/2):
shuddha re: [9/8; 204]
"half"-status shuddha re: [10/9; 182]

komal ga (3):
komal ga: [6/5; 316]
ati komal ga: [32/27; 294]
(ati ati komal ga: [75/64; 274])

Ga (1 1/2):
shuddha ga: [5/4; 386]
"half"-status shuddha ga: [81/64; 408]

Ma (2):
shuddha Ma: [4/3; 498]
ekasruti Ma: [27/20; 520]

tivra Ma (2):
tivra Ma: [45/32; 590]
tivratar Ma: [729/512; 612]

Pa (1): [3/2; 702]

komal dha (3):
komal dha: [8/5; 814]
ati komal dha: [128/81; 792]
(ati ati komal dha: [25/16; 772])

Dha (2):
shuddha dha: [5/3; 884]
shuddha dha: [27/16; 906]

komal ni (2):
komal ni: [9/5; 1018]
komal ni: [16/9; 996]

Ni (1 1/2):
shuddha ni: [15/8; 1088]
"half"-status shuddha ni: [243/128; 1110]

I believe i posted a reference that supported what you suggested at that time.
but hen i remembered there was another document done with Erv Wilson and Amiya Dasgupta (who taught Indian music at Cal Arts and recorded with the Beatles)
But The link was busted but now fixed
http://www.anaphoria.com/Muchana1.PDF

ma1973 wrote:
>
> I think this is a wonderful new instrument and I'm delighted to see
> it. I hope it will be possible to get my hands on one some day.
>
> Last August there was a discussion on this forum in which I
> participated regarding the 22 shrutis used in Indian Raga. I posted
> a list of the shrutis, giving the ratios for each, and included some
> interesting comments by the great master Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. To my
> surprise, I got a LOT of arguments from members of this list about
> the correctness of the ratios I gave. Some offered alternative
> theoretical systems for calculating the ratios for the 22 shrutis
> which, while having a certain theoretical appeal, bore no real-life
> relationship to Indian music as it is actually sung and played. The
> argument became rather drawn out but ended up going nowhere except to
> discourage me from posting on this forum.
>
> I have no intention of rehashing those arguments here. If anyone is
> interested they can look up post number 72704 and the replies
> following. It's all there.
>
> What moves me to post again now is my gratification at seeing the
> list of ratios Dr. Vidyadhar Gopal Oke has employed as the 22 shrutis
> in his new instrument, the 22 Shruti Harmonium. I offer my list and
> his below for examination by anyone who may be interested. In short,
> we're in full agreement on all 22 shrutis. I believe this is a very
> strong additional piece of evidence in support of the arguments I
> made in the earlier thread cited above. Again, I have no wish to
> rehash the old arguments, but I congratulate Dr. Oke on his great new
> instrument, and his knowledge, care, and sensitivity in providing all
> 22 shrutis with precision and accuracy.
>
> Dr. Oke's ratios:
>
> 256/243 ! 2: r1 = 2^8/3^5
> 16/15 ! 3: r2 = 2^4/5/3
> 10/9 ! 4: R1 = 5*2/3^2
> 9/8 ! 5: R2 = 3^2/2^3
> 32/27 ! 6: g1 = 2^5/3^3
> 6/5 ! 7: g2 = 3*2/5
> 5/4 ! 8: G1 = 5/2^2
> 81/64 ! 9: G2 = 3^4/2^6
> 4/3 ! 10: M1 = 2^2/3
> 27/20 ! 11: M2 = 3^3/5/2^2
> 45/32 ! 12: m1 = 5*3^2/2^5
> 729/512 ! 13: m2 = 3^6/2^9
> 3/2 ! 14: p
> 128/81 ! 15: d1 = 2^7/3^4
> 8/5 ! 16: d2 = 2^3/5
> 5/3 ! 17: D1
> 27/16 ! 18: D2 = 3^3/2^4
> 16/9 ! 19: n1 = 2^4/3^2
> 9/5 ! 20: n2 = 3^2/2^3
> 15/8 ! 21: N2 = 5*3/2^3
> 243/128 ! 22: N2 = 3^5/2^7
> 2/1
>
> Ratios I gave in post #72704, which match Dr. Oke's list exactly for
> the 22 shrutis, but also include three additional shrutis mentioned
> by Ali Akbar Khan and whose role in Indian raga is discussed in the
> above referenced post. Those are the three "ati ati komals" in the
> list below:
>
> Sa (1): [1/1; 000)
>
> komal re (3):
> komal re: [16/15; 112]
> ati komal re: [256/243; 090]
> (ati ati komal re: [25/24; 070])
>
> Re (1 1/2):
> shuddha re: [9/8; 204]
> "half"-status shuddha re: [10/9; 182]
>
> komal ga (3):
> komal ga: [6/5; 316]
> ati komal ga: [32/27; 294]
> (ati ati komal ga: [75/64; 274])
>
> Ga (1 1/2):
> shuddha ga: [5/4; 386]
> "half"-status shuddha ga: [81/64; 408]
>
> Ma (2):
> shuddha Ma: [4/3; 498]
> ekasruti Ma: [27/20; 520]
>
> tivra Ma (2):
> tivra Ma: [45/32; 590]
> tivratar Ma: [729/512; 612]
>
> Pa (1): [3/2; 702]
>
> komal dha (3):
> komal dha: [8/5; 814]
> ati komal dha: [128/81; 792]
> (ati ati komal dha: [25/16; 772])
>
> Dha (2):
> shuddha dha: [5/3; 884]
> shuddha dha: [27/16; 906]
>
> komal ni (2):
> komal ni: [9/5; 1018]
> komal ni: [16/9; 996]
>
> Ni (1 1/2):
> shuddha ni: [15/8; 1088]
> "half"-status shuddha ni: [243/128; 1110]
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

http://anaphoria.com/WIREreview1.jpg

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Thank you for posting the link to the document by Erv Wilson and
Amilya Dasgupta on the tuning for Kafi That. I had not seen this
document before. This is a most beautiful tuning for Kafi, which is
the Indian equivalent of the Dorian mode. The tuning given is wholly
within the shruti system I offered and which is the same as that used
by Dr. Oke in his 22 Shruti Harmonium. Thus this tuning for Kafi
would be readily playable on that instrument. Lovely!

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> I believe i posted a reference that supported what you suggested at
that
> time.
> but hen i remembered there was another document done with Erv
Wilson and
> Amiya Dasgupta (who taught Indian music at Cal Arts and recorded
with
> the Beatles)
> But The link was busted but now fixed
> http://www.anaphoria.com/Muchana1.PDF
>
> ma1973 wrote:
> >
> > I think this is a wonderful new instrument and I'm delighted to
see
> > it. I hope it will be possible to get my hands on one some day.
> >
> > Last August there was a discussion on this forum in which I
> > participated regarding the 22 shrutis used in Indian Raga. I
posted
> > a list of the shrutis, giving the ratios for each, and included
some
> > interesting comments by the great master Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. To
my
> > surprise, I got a LOT of arguments from members of this list about
> > the correctness of the ratios I gave. Some offered alternative
> > theoretical systems for calculating the ratios for the 22 shrutis
> > which, while having a certain theoretical appeal, bore no real-
life
> > relationship to Indian music as it is actually sung and played.
The
> > argument became rather drawn out but ended up going nowhere
except to
> > discourage me from posting on this forum.
> >
> > I have no intention of rehashing those arguments here. If anyone
is
> > interested they can look up post number 72704 and the replies
> > following. It's all there.
> >
> > What moves me to post again now is my gratification at seeing the
> > list of ratios Dr. Vidyadhar Gopal Oke has employed as the 22
shrutis
> > in his new instrument, the 22 Shruti Harmonium. I offer my list
and
> > his below for examination by anyone who may be interested. In
short,
> > we're in full agreement on all 22 shrutis. I believe this is a
very
> > strong additional piece of evidence in support of the arguments I
> > made in the earlier thread cited above. Again, I have no wish to
> > rehash the old arguments, but I congratulate Dr. Oke on his great
new
> > instrument, and his knowledge, care, and sensitivity in providing
all
> > 22 shrutis with precision and accuracy.
> >
> > Dr. Oke's ratios:
> >
> > 256/243 ! 2: r1 = 2^8/3^5
> > 16/15 ! 3: r2 = 2^4/5/3
> > 10/9 ! 4: R1 = 5*2/3^2
> > 9/8 ! 5: R2 = 3^2/2^3
> > 32/27 ! 6: g1 = 2^5/3^3
> > 6/5 ! 7: g2 = 3*2/5
> > 5/4 ! 8: G1 = 5/2^2
> > 81/64 ! 9: G2 = 3^4/2^6
> > 4/3 ! 10: M1 = 2^2/3
> > 27/20 ! 11: M2 = 3^3/5/2^2
> > 45/32 ! 12: m1 = 5*3^2/2^5
> > 729/512 ! 13: m2 = 3^6/2^9
> > 3/2 ! 14: p
> > 128/81 ! 15: d1 = 2^7/3^4
> > 8/5 ! 16: d2 = 2^3/5
> > 5/3 ! 17: D1
> > 27/16 ! 18: D2 = 3^3/2^4
> > 16/9 ! 19: n1 = 2^4/3^2
> > 9/5 ! 20: n2 = 3^2/2^3
> > 15/8 ! 21: N2 = 5*3/2^3
> > 243/128 ! 22: N2 = 3^5/2^7
> > 2/1
> >
> > Ratios I gave in post #72704, which match Dr. Oke's list exactly
for
> > the 22 shrutis, but also include three additional shrutis
mentioned
> > by Ali Akbar Khan and whose role in Indian raga is discussed in
the
> > above referenced post. Those are the three "ati ati komals" in the
> > list below:
> >
> > Sa (1): [1/1; 000)
> >
> > komal re (3):
> > komal re: [16/15; 112]
> > ati komal re: [256/243; 090]
> > (ati ati komal re: [25/24; 070])
> >
> > Re (1 1/2):
> > shuddha re: [9/8; 204]
> > "half"-status shuddha re: [10/9; 182]
> >
> > komal ga (3):
> > komal ga: [6/5; 316]
> > ati komal ga: [32/27; 294]
> > (ati ati komal ga: [75/64; 274])
> >
> > Ga (1 1/2):
> > shuddha ga: [5/4; 386]
> > "half"-status shuddha ga: [81/64; 408]
> >
> > Ma (2):
> > shuddha Ma: [4/3; 498]
> > ekasruti Ma: [27/20; 520]
> >
> > tivra Ma (2):
> > tivra Ma: [45/32; 590]
> > tivratar Ma: [729/512; 612]
> >
> > Pa (1): [3/2; 702]
> >
> > komal dha (3):
> > komal dha: [8/5; 814]
> > ati komal dha: [128/81; 792]
> > (ati ati komal dha: [25/16; 772])
> >
> > Dha (2):
> > shuddha dha: [5/3; 884]
> > shuddha dha: [27/16; 906]
> >
> > komal ni (2):
> > komal ni: [9/5; 1018]
> > komal ni: [16/9; 996]
> >
> > Ni (1 1/2):
> > shuddha ni: [15/8; 1088]
> > "half"-status shuddha ni: [243/128; 1110]
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
<http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los
Angeles
>

Hello friends,
This is indeed good news if indian musicians start to investigate in their
own scales by using such instruments, rather than by 12-equal substitutes.
It seems, according to the photograph, that this harmonium gives not only
22, but 24 tones ?

However, this website says that this is "the 1st and only harmonium capable
of playing the 22 shrutis in the world today", that's not true. It may be
patented that way, but several shruti harmoniums have been done before. I
saw and played personnally several of Alain Daniélou's shruti harmoniums,
which according to Jacques Cloarec, who keeps them in the Harsharan
Foudation in Paris, he got built in India since 1940 and after.
You can see photographs of one of those harmoniums in Daniélou's book
"Semantique musicale" he first wrote in 1967, and a photograph of the first
one is in Danielou's "Anthologie de la Musique de l'inde". Danielou writes
in his memories that it used bicycle wheel rays and during the war the
english where wandering if it hided a radiotransmission apparel.
On Daniélou's keyboards you can access microtonal variations directly from
the keyboard, as the usual 12 keys were splitted in 2 or 3 parts. This asks
more skill but allows for more microtonal subtleties, especially in Indian
music where I believe many double-tones are needed to express most ragas.
After these accoustic harmoniums, Danielou conceived several microtonal
electronic keyboards such as the S52 now in Berlin and the Semantic, with 36
five-limit tones per octave, now in Zagarolo near Roma :
http://www.alaindanielou.org/Semantic-Danielou,237.html

Anyway, thanks for the information, I hope Dr.Vidyadhar Oke's invention can
be used by many.

le 5/02/08 20:18, Carl Lumma à carl@lumma.org a écrit :

Haresh,

Thank you for the link. It's wonderful to see and hear
this instrument.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <mailto:tuning%40yahoogroups.com> , "Haresh
BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@...> wrote:
>
> Hello ALL, please visit
> http://www.22shrutiharmonium.com/index.asp
> for the new shruti harmonium and metallophone.
> And, listen to all 22 shrutis, too.
>
> Regards,
> Haresh.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jacques Dudon <fotosonix@...> wrote:
>
> Hello friends,
> This is indeed good news if indian musicians start to investigate in
their
> own scales by using such instruments, rather than by 12-equal
substitutes.
> It seems, according to the photograph, that this harmonium gives not
only
> 22, but 24 tones ?

I watched the video, and he pulls out the pins on each key except for
the 1/1 and 3/2. So the functionality for 24 tones could be there, or
the pins might be cosmetic...

Marc,
You might be interested to know that Professor P. Sambamoorthy,
Head of the department of Indian Music in Madras University,
in his book "South indian music" (1963), vol.5 page 41 gives also the very
same ratios for the 22 shrutis.
During my trip to india in 1970, I found, by hearing indian classical
musicians and comparison to refretted instruments I made, the same ratios
also, before I found them in Prof. P. Sambamoorthy's book.
So many of us joined on the same models, which is not surprising considering
that the 22 shrutis are basically a chain of fifths, with schismic
variations.

At that time I drew many circular representations of the 22 shrutis and
their interactions, which I called the 22 shrutis mandalas, and wrote
several articles on the subject.
Someone found some years ago one version of those on internet that I copied
in AEH's website :

http://aeh.free.fr/
then go to page "recherche microtonale"

It is quoting my name but I never drew this one.
Anyone knows the author ?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Jacques Dudon
Atelier d'Exploration Harmonique
83340 LE THORONET, France

ma1973 wrote:
>
> I think this is a wonderful new instrument and I'm delighted to see
> it. I hope it will be possible to get my hands on one some day.
>
> Last August there was a discussion on this forum in which I
> participated regarding the 22 shrutis used in Indian Raga. I posted
> a list of the shrutis, giving the ratios for each, and included some
> interesting comments by the great master Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. To my
> surprise, I got a LOT of arguments from members of this list about
> the correctness of the ratios I gave. Some offered alternative
> theoretical systems for calculating the ratios for the 22 shrutis
> which, while having a certain theoretical appeal, bore no real-life
> relationship to Indian music as it is actually sung and played. The
> argument became rather drawn out but ended up going nowhere except to
> discourage me from posting on this forum.
>
> I have no intention of rehashing those arguments here. If anyone is
> interested they can look up post number 72704 and the replies
> following. It's all there.
>
> What moves me to post again now is my gratification at seeing the
> list of ratios Dr. Vidyadhar Gopal Oke has employed as the 22 shrutis
> in his new instrument, the 22 Shruti Harmonium. I offer my list and
> his below for examination by anyone who may be interested. In short,
> we're in full agreement on all 22 shrutis. I believe this is a very
> strong additional piece of evidence in support of the arguments I
> made in the earlier thread cited above. Again, I have no wish to
> rehash the old arguments, but I congratulate Dr. Oke on his great new
> instrument, and his knowledge, care, and sensitivity in providing all
> 22 shrutis with precision and accuracy.
>
> Dr. Oke's ratios:
>
> 256/243 ! 2: r1 = 2^8/3^5
> 16/15 ! 3: r2 = 2^4/5/3
> 10/9 ! 4: R1 = 5*2/3^2
> 9/8 ! 5: R2 = 3^2/2^3
> 32/27 ! 6: g1 = 2^5/3^3
> 6/5 ! 7: g2 = 3*2/5
> 5/4 ! 8: G1 = 5/2^2
> 81/64 ! 9: G2 = 3^4/2^6
> 4/3 ! 10: M1 = 2^2/3
> 27/20 ! 11: M2 = 3^3/5/2^2
> 45/32 ! 12: m1 = 5*3^2/2^5
> 729/512 ! 13: m2 = 3^6/2^9
> 3/2 ! 14: p
> 128/81 ! 15: d1 = 2^7/3^4
> 8/5 ! 16: d2 = 2^3/5
> 5/3 ! 17: D1
> 27/16 ! 18: D2 = 3^3/2^4
> 16/9 ! 19: n1 = 2^4/3^2
> 9/5 ! 20: n2 = 3^2/2^3
> 15/8 ! 21: N2 = 5*3/2^3
> 243/128 ! 22: N2 = 3^5/2^7
> 2/1
>
> Ratios I gave in post #72704, which match Dr. Oke's list exactly for
> the 22 shrutis, but also include three additional shrutis mentioned
> by Ali Akbar Khan and whose role in Indian raga is discussed in the
> above referenced post. Those are the three "ati ati komals" in the
> list below:
>
> Sa (1): [1/1; 000)
>
> komal re (3):
> komal re: [16/15; 112]
> ati komal re: [256/243; 090]
> (ati ati komal re: [25/24; 070])
>
> Re (1 1/2):
> shuddha re: [9/8; 204]
> "half"-status shuddha re: [10/9; 182]
>
> komal ga (3):
> komal ga: [6/5; 316]
> ati komal ga: [32/27; 294]
> (ati ati komal ga: [75/64; 274])
>
> Ga (1 1/2):
> shuddha ga: [5/4; 386]
> "half"-status shuddha ga: [81/64; 408]
>
> Ma (2):
> shuddha Ma: [4/3; 498]
> ekasruti Ma: [27/20; 520]
>
> tivra Ma (2):
> tivra Ma: [45/32; 590]
> tivratar Ma: [729/512; 612]
>
> Pa (1): [3/2; 702]
>
> komal dha (3):
> komal dha: [8/5; 814]
> ati komal dha: [128/81; 792]
> (ati ati komal dha: [25/16; 772])
>
> Dha (2):
> shuddha dha: [5/3; 884]
> shuddha dha: [27/16; 906]
>
> komal ni (2):
> komal ni: [9/5; 1018]
> komal ni: [16/9; 996]
>
> Ni (1 1/2):
> shuddha ni: [15/8; 1088]
> "half"-status shuddha ni: [243/128; 1110]

At http://anaphoria.com/library.html you will find that an excerpt can be found of P. Sambamoorthy book that was put up quite some time ago

Jacques Dudon wrote:
>
> Marc,
> You might be interested to know that Professor P. Sambamoorthy,
> Head of the department of Indian Music in Madras University,
> in his book "South indian music" (1963), vol.5 page 41 gives also the very
> same ratios for the 22 shrutis.
> During my trip to india in 1970, I found, by hearing indian classical
> musicians and comparison to refretted instruments I made, the same ratios
> also, before I found them in Prof. P. Sambamoorthy's book.
> So many of us joined on the same models, which is not surprising > considering
> that the 22 shrutis are basically a chain of fifths, with schismic
> variations.
>
> At that time I drew many circular representations of the 22 shrutis and
> their interactions, which I called the 22 shrutis mandalas, and wrote
> several articles on the subject.
> Someone found some years ago one version of those on internet that I > copied
> in AEH's website :
>
> http://aeh.free.fr/ <http://aeh.free.fr/>
> then go to page "recherche microtonale"
>
> It is quoting my name but I never drew this one.
> Anyone knows the author ?
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Jacques Dudon
> Atelier d'Exploration Harmonique
> 83340 LE THORONET, France
>
> ma1973 wrote:
> >
> > I think this is a wonderful new instrument and I'm delighted to see
> > it. I hope it will be possible to get my hands on one some day.
> >
> > Last August there was a discussion on this forum in which I
> > participated regarding the 22 shrutis used in Indian Raga. I posted
> > a list of the shrutis, giving the ratios for each, and included some
> > interesting comments by the great master Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. To my
> > surprise, I got a LOT of arguments from members of this list about
> > the correctness of the ratios I gave. Some offered alternative
> > theoretical systems for calculating the ratios for the 22 shrutis
> > which, while having a certain theoretical appeal, bore no real-life
> > relationship to Indian music as it is actually sung and played. The
> > argument became rather drawn out but ended up going nowhere except to
> > discourage me from posting on this forum.
> >
> > I have no intention of rehashing those arguments here. If anyone is
> > interested they can look up post number 72704 and the replies
> > following. It's all there.
> >
> > What moves me to post again now is my gratification at seeing the
> > list of ratios Dr. Vidyadhar Gopal Oke has employed as the 22 shrutis
> > in his new instrument, the 22 Shruti Harmonium. I offer my list and
> > his below for examination by anyone who may be interested. In short,
> > we're in full agreement on all 22 shrutis. I believe this is a very
> > strong additional piece of evidence in support of the arguments I
> > made in the earlier thread cited above. Again, I have no wish to
> > rehash the old arguments, but I congratulate Dr. Oke on his great new
> > instrument, and his knowledge, care, and sensitivity in providing all
> > 22 shrutis with precision and accuracy.
> >
> > Dr. Oke's ratios:
> >
> > 256/243 ! 2: r1 = 2^8/3^5
> > 16/15 ! 3: r2 = 2^4/5/3
> > 10/9 ! 4: R1 = 5*2/3^2
> > 9/8 ! 5: R2 = 3^2/2^3
> > 32/27 ! 6: g1 = 2^5/3^3
> > 6/5 ! 7: g2 = 3*2/5
> > 5/4 ! 8: G1 = 5/2^2
> > 81/64 ! 9: G2 = 3^4/2^6
> > 4/3 ! 10: M1 = 2^2/3
> > 27/20 ! 11: M2 = 3^3/5/2^2
> > 45/32 ! 12: m1 = 5*3^2/2^5
> > 729/512 ! 13: m2 = 3^6/2^9
> > 3/2 ! 14: p
> > 128/81 ! 15: d1 = 2^7/3^4
> > 8/5 ! 16: d2 = 2^3/5
> > 5/3 ! 17: D1
> > 27/16 ! 18: D2 = 3^3/2^4
> > 16/9 ! 19: n1 = 2^4/3^2
> > 9/5 ! 20: n2 = 3^2/2^3
> > 15/8 ! 21: N2 = 5*3/2^3
> > 243/128 ! 22: N2 = 3^5/2^7
> > 2/1
> >
> > Ratios I gave in post #72704, which match Dr. Oke's list exactly for
> > the 22 shrutis, but also include three additional shrutis mentioned
> > by Ali Akbar Khan and whose role in Indian raga is discussed in the
> > above referenced post. Those are the three "ati ati komals" in the
> > list below:
> >
> > Sa (1): [1/1; 000)
> >
> > komal re (3):
> > komal re: [16/15; 112]
> > ati komal re: [256/243; 090]
> > (ati ati komal re: [25/24; 070])
> >
> > Re (1 1/2):
> > shuddha re: [9/8; 204]
> > "half"-status shuddha re: [10/9; 182]
> >
> > komal ga (3):
> > komal ga: [6/5; 316]
> > ati komal ga: [32/27; 294]
> > (ati ati komal ga: [75/64; 274])
> >
> > Ga (1 1/2):
> > shuddha ga: [5/4; 386]
> > "half"-status shuddha ga: [81/64; 408]
> >
> > Ma (2):
> > shuddha Ma: [4/3; 498]
> > ekasruti Ma: [27/20; 520]
> >
> > tivra Ma (2):
> > tivra Ma: [45/32; 590]
> > tivratar Ma: [729/512; 612]
> >
> > Pa (1): [3/2; 702]
> >
> > komal dha (3):
> > komal dha: [8/5; 814]
> > ati komal dha: [128/81; 792]
> > (ati ati komal dha: [25/16; 772])
> >
> > Dha (2):
> > shuddha dha: [5/3; 884]
> > shuddha dha: [27/16; 906]
> >
> > komal ni (2):
> > komal ni: [9/5; 1018]
> > komal ni: [16/9; 996]
> >
> > Ni (1 1/2):
> > shuddha ni: [15/8; 1088]
> > "half"-status shuddha ni: [243/128; 1110]
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Thanks Kraig, this vol.4 is a perfect reference, even older.
Clear and instructive. It was certainly worth its 5 rupees !

Jacques

le 9/02/08 15:26, Kraig Grady à kraiggrady@anaphoria.com a écrit :

At http://anaphoria.com/library.html you will find that an excerpt can
be found of P. Sambamoorthy book that was put up quite some time ago

Jacques Dudon wrote:
>
> Marc,
> You might be interested to know that Professor P. Sambamoorthy,
> Head of the department of Indian Music in Madras University,
> in his book "South indian music" (1963), vol.5 page 41 gives also the very
> same ratios for the 22 shrutis.