Carrillo 1/16th of tone piano

Hi there!

I am preparing a chronological list of works, publications
and events related to the 96 equal temperament after
Carrillo's death (1965).

I will be sharing the list with the list once completed and
since the 1998 manufacturing of Carrillo's patent for
a 97 notes piano (one octave from middle C), many
concerts have been happening in Europe and some in
Canada, that is very difficult to keep a track. I have never
heard of one of these pianos being sold in USA but it
would be great to know through the list or off the list.

Tony Salinas
tony@tonysalinas.com

Hi tony
so , i may be there in your list(-;

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "J.A.Martin Salinas" <tony@...> wrote:
>
> Hi there!
>
> I am preparing a chronological list of works, publications
> and events related to the 96 equal temperament after
> Carrillo's death (1965).
>
> I will be sharing the list with the list once completed and
> since the 1998 manufacturing of Carrillo's patent for
> a 97 notes piano (one octave from middle C), many
> concerts have been happening in Europe and some in
> Canada, that is very difficult to keep a track. I have never
> heard of one of these pianos being sold in USA but it
> would be great to know through the list or off the list.
>
>
> Tony Salinas
> tony@...
>

Of course Shaahim!

Your works for the 96 equal temperament will be there!

So please provide some more details and if possible
a score ... I can buy it too once published!

Also to anybody on the list who can provide details about
post Carrillo works (author, date, score, publisher, comcerts, etc)
and writings related to the 96 euqal temperament it will be
appreciated. The output will be made available on a web site
for your reference from September.

Sincerely,

Tony Salinas

You need to privid
On 2008/01/12, at 22:59, acousticsoftombak wrote:

> Hi tony
> so , i may be there in your list(-;
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "J.A.Martin Salinas" <tony@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi there!
> >
> > I am preparing a chronological list of works, publications
> > and events related to the 96 equal temperament after
> > Carrillo's death (1965).
> >
> > I will be sharing the list with the list once completed and
> > since the 1998 manufacturing of Carrillo's patent for
> > a 97 notes piano (one octave from middle C), many
> > concerts have been happening in Europe and some in
> > Canada, that is very difficult to keep a track. I have never
> > heard of one of these pianos being sold in USA but it
> > would be great to know through the list or off the list.
> >
> >
> > Tony Salinas
> > tony@...
> >
>
>
>

Contemporary with Carillo you have Novaro who appears to be the first
to propose 72 ET.
The politics of this one are a bit touchy as the book Novaro wrote
appears to have been supressed by Carillo. The latter claim lawful
action claiming all ET divisions of 12 ET his intellectual property.
Not having the resources that Carillo had financially, it appears all
Novaro could do was take a single copy of the book and deposit it at
the library of congress.
We have to thank Mark Rankin who accidently discovered his 1927 book
by accident while requesting what he thought was the later.
The Book can be seen here
http://anaphoria.com/novaro.html
along with a translation of the text.
I apologize for not being able to take this project further than this
state at the moment.
hopefully in the context of Wilson's work and other including
Mandlebaum's i hope i am given some slack on this.

It is all unfortunate and it shouldn't take us away from the fact of
Carillo's talent.
In such circumstance it is understandable the factors that have lead
to the loss of all of Novaro's work and instruments, including pieces
for player piano. To be fair it appears that those around him might
also have taken there part in bringing this about. Not realizing just
what he had accomplished and done.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "J.A.Martin Salinas" <tony@...> wrote:
>
> Of course Shaahim!
>
> Your works for the 96 equal temperament will be there!
>
> So please provide some more details and if possible
> a score ... I can buy it too once published!
>
> Also to anybody on the list who can provide details about
> post Carrillo works (author, date, score, publisher, comcerts, etc)
> and writings related to the 96 euqal temperament it will be
> appreciated. The output will be made available on a web site
> for your reference from September.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Tony Salinas
>
> You need to privid
> On 2008/01/12, at 22:59, acousticsoftombak wrote:
>
> > Hi tony
> > so , i may be there in your list(-;
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "J.A.Martin Salinas" <tony@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi there!
> > >
> > > I am preparing a chronological list of works, publications
> > > and events related to the 96 equal temperament after
> > > Carrillo's death (1965).
> > >
> > > I will be sharing the list with the list once completed and
> > > since the 1998 manufacturing of Carrillo's patent for
> > > a 97 notes piano (one octave from middle C), many
> > > concerts have been happening in Europe and some in
> > > Canada, that is very difficult to keep a track. I have never
> > > heard of one of these pianos being sold in USA but it
> > > would be great to know through the list or off the list.
> > >
> > >
> > > Tony Salinas
> > > tony@
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

Kraig et al,

1.) There was Carillo's "13th Tone".

2.) There were Carillo's(?) 96-Tones Per Octave.

3.) There is Tony Salinas's "the 1998 manufacturing
of Carillo's patent [sic] for a 97 notes piano
[sic] (one octave from middle C [sic])..."

4.) There is "Navaro who appears to be the first to
propose 72 ET"

Things seem a bit confused. Can someone start anew at
COMPOSE, and sort out these four items for us?

I've forgotten what Carillo meant by "13th Tone", but
I seem to remember that it had nothing to do with
13-ET.

Kraig, who is your source for "...Navaro who appears
to to be the first to propose 72 ET".

Thanks,

Mark Rankin

--- banaphshu <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com> wrote:

> Contemporary with Carillo you have Novaro who
> appears to be the first
> to propose 72 ET.
> The politics of this one are a bit touchy as the
> book Novaro wrote
> appears to have been supressed by Carillo. The
> latter claim lawful
> action claiming all ET divisions of 12 ET his
> intellectual property.
> Not having the resources that Carillo had
> financially, it appears all
> Novaro could do was take a single copy of the book
> and deposit it at
> the library of congress.
> We have to thank Mark Rankin who accidently
> discovered his 1927 book
> by accident while requesting what he thought was the
> later.
> The Book can be seen here
> http://anaphoria.com/novaro.html
> along with a translation of the text.
> I apologize for not being able to take this project
> further than this
> state at the moment.
> hopefully in the context of Wilson's work and other
> including
> Mandlebaum's i hope i am given some slack on this.
>
> It is all unfortunate and it shouldn't take us away
> from the fact of
> Carillo's talent.
> In such circumstance it is understandable the
> factors that have lead
> to the loss of all of Novaro's work and instruments,
> including pieces
> for player piano. To be fair it appears that those
> around him might
> also have taken there part in bringing this about.
> Not realizing just
> what he had accomplished and done.
>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "J.A.Martin Salinas"
> <tony@...> wrote:
> >
> > Of course Shaahim!
> >
> > Your works for the 96 equal temperament will be
> there!
> >
> > So please provide some more details and if
> possible
> > a score ... I can buy it too once published!
> >
> > Also to anybody on the list who can provide
> details about
> > post Carrillo works (author, date, score,
> publisher, comcerts, etc)
> > and writings related to the 96 euqal temperament
> it will be
> > appreciated. The output will be made available on
> a web site
> > for your reference from September.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Tony Salinas
> >
> > You need to privid
> > On 2008/01/12, at 22:59, acousticsoftombak wrote:
> >
> > > Hi tony
> > > so , i may be there in your list(-;
> > >
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "J.A.Martin
> Salinas" <tony@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi there!
> > > >
> > > > I am preparing a chronological list of works,
> publications
> > > > and events related to the 96 equal temperament
> after
> > > > Carrillo's death (1965).
> > > >
> > > > I will be sharing the list with the list once
> completed and
> > > > since the 1998 manufacturing of Carrillo's
> patent for
> > > > a 97 notes piano (one octave from middle C),
> many
> > > > concerts have been happening in Europe and
> some in
> > > > Canada, that is very difficult to keep a
> track. I have never
> > > > heard of one of these pianos being sold in USA
> but it
> > > > would be great to know through the list or off
> the list.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tony Salinas
> > > > tony@
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mark Rankin <markrankin95511@...> wrote:
>
> Kraig et al,
>
> 1.) There was Carillo's "13th Tone".
>
> 2.) There were Carillo's(?) 96-Tones Per Octave.
>
> 3.) There is Tony Salinas's "the 1998 manufacturing
> of Carillo's patent [sic] for a 97 notes piano
> [sic] (one octave from middle C [sic])..."
>
> 4.) There is "Navaro who appears to be the first to
> propose 72 ET"
>
> Things seem a bit confused. Can someone start anew at
> COMPOSE, and sort out these four items for us?

How do you mean, Mark?

> I've forgotten what Carillo meant by "13th Tone", but
> I seem to remember that it had nothing to do with
> 13-ET.

Correct. It just referred to stepping beyond 12 Tones.

> Kraig, who is your source for "...Navaro who appears
> to to be the first to propose 72 ET".

I think there was a thread on here or MMM where we tried
to figure out who first proposed 72. This

http://anaphoria.com/novaro27natural.pdf

is dated 1927. Actually I think monz has a page showing
first proponents of each ET

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/e/equal-temperament.aspx

Hm, that shows Haba also in '27.

-Carl

> --- banaphshu <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> > Contemporary with Carillo you have Novaro who
> > appears to be the first to propose 72 ET.
> > The politics of this one are a bit touchy as the
> > book Novaro wrote appears to have been supressed
> > by Carillo. The latter claim lawful action claiming
> > all ET divisions of 12 ET his intellectual property.
> > Not having the resources that Carillo had
> > financially, it appears all Novaro could do was
> > take a single copy of the book and deposit it at
> > the library of congress.
> > We have to thank Mark Rankin who accidently
> > discovered his 1927 book by accident while
> > requesting what he thought was the later.
> > The Book can be seen here
> > http://anaphoria.com/novaro.html
> > along with a translation of the text.
> > I apologize for not being able to take this project
> > further than this state at the moment.
> > hopefully in the context of Wilson's work and other
> > including Mandlebaum's i hope i am given some slack
> > on this.
> >

Hi Mark!

Julián Carrillo (1875-1965) composed, and developed
several musical instrument based on the 96-EDO (equal
temperament), which he patented.

One of the instruments he patented is the 1/16th tone piano
which Sauter started manufacturing from 1998:

http://www.sauter-pianos.de/english/pianos/microtone.html

Julián Carrillo was very poor and had to play percussion
in a small orchestra as a teenager to support his family.
He had no lessons for violin so he taught himself and entered
the conservatoire at the age of 18. At that time he was already
experimenting with a razor on the violin to distinguish 16 different
tones within a tone range. At that time Novaro was 2 years of age!!!

There is no signs of Novaro attempting to use a tuning system
targeting to hear the smallest interval that he could hear, which
was the early idea of Carrillo later on developed into the 'Sound 13'
theroy and finally published in 1925.

Both works are important to what came after and both were ahead
of time. Carrillo had already made a great career as a composer
when he started his own ensemble so he had more credibility
than Novaro but I have no records of Carrillo trying to push Novaro
on the side neither of him supporting his work! ...I will find out,
as well
as I am trying to find out at the moment if Carrillo was in touch with
Harry Partch at some point. I am waiting for some answers from his
relatives who got together last Christmas in Mexico city.

Sound 13 as Carl already mentioned means breaking with the 12 note
system

As for the piano 1/16 tone piano from Sauter I am trying to get in
touch with
professor John Mather in Montreal if anybody knows an address. He has
one of the pianos.

I also know there are other few in France, Germany and Swiss so
now in the process of tracking them down as well as the activities
involved with these pianos.

As for my work is very tiny at the moment but I have composed for
an ensemble using 96-EDO and built a set of 96 steel conic-shape
bells which are displayed in semicircle using 6 rows of 16 notes
(covering a tone per row)... I named the instrument the conic bellophone
but no patent unless I get a few more orders, otherwise I will
stick to my Chinese contacts to produce it at low cost.

Shaahim has done work in the 96-EDO, but not sure if people
in this list have work with the this tuning system.

I hope this helps!

Tony Salinas

Kraig --

if I recall correctly, the problem with the Novaro materials has been that his family -- which has (or had) his archives -- was not cooperative with anyone inquiring. Sadly, it's a familiar story, whether from speculation that one might earn money from the materials, or from indifference, or even disapproval (the Zappa estate is an example of the former, that of filmmaker Jack Smith is a good example of the latter).

Daniel Wolf

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

The book itself! Who proposed 72 as being able to handle the harmonics
up to 11 before him. 1927. also the book contains the 7 limit diamond
with the empty spaces filled in making it closer to an MOS. this is
the same year as Meyer.

We have no idea which book was in Carillo house, chances are it is
the latter book. UP to this date there has not been found any other
copy of the 1927 book outside the library of Congress.

Navaro thinking is not in accord with Carillo so there is no reason
for him to cite him if indeed he was truly interested in 72 before
Navaro. we do not know when Carillo made his pianos

> Kraig, who is your source for "...Navaro who appears
> to to be the first to propose 72 ET".
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark Rankin
>
>

yes that is what i was hinting at! but there was legal action of
Carillo against Novaro, or treat of.
It is my understanding that Carillo was nor poor at all, quite the
contrary. how does one tune so many pinos in so many ETs without funding?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Wolf" <djwolf@...> wrote:
>
> Kraig --
>
> if I recall correctly, the problem with the Novaro materials has
been that
> his family -- which has (or had) his archives -- was not cooperative
with
> anyone inquiring. Sadly, it's a familiar story, whether from
speculation
> that one might earn money from the materials, or from indifference, or
> even disapproval (the Zappa estate is an example of the former, that
of
> filmmaker Jack Smith is a good example of the latter).
>
> Daniel Wolf
>
>
> --
> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
>

I don't think this was posted here. from dec.

http://www.thewire.co.uk/articles/342/