Re: What is microtonalist? redux

Someday, I hope it catches up with everybody that "all music is microtonal."
Kalle is right to stress intervals over pitches. Tony is right that it
could all be culturally-based, and that one could use a 1200-tET system of a
diesis of 1 cent.

However, science doesn't describe based on a culture. Neither does math.
In deference to these areas of interest, as opposed to the diverse religions
and non-religion found in people, there is no reason to segregate tunings as
once practiced in South Africa.

Kraig, I don't think "Cage did not consider himself a microtonalist."
Besides actually writing numerous microtonal pieces, increasing towards the end of
his life, he was interviewed in PITCH I:4 in which he was thrilled to be
considered a microtonalist.

Kraig continued:
"Stockhausen, Xenakis Boulez were to Partch the great enemy regardless
if they used microtones are not." Apologies in advance to Jon, but Partch
was paranoid. He believed and published erroneously that Bach was ET!
Anybody with a paying job was a great enemy to Partch. In truth, Cowell was more
of an enemy to Partch. I doubt Boulez and Stockhausen were much of a blip to
Partch. And Xenakis was a truly nice guy, who happened to hate just
intonation.

This is my pitch: that microtality is the musical element of pitch in all
its variations. Other elements: timbre, rhythm, form, notation. Music can not
be robbed of its elements without falling on its ephemeral face. Cage had
pitch in his "aggregate" toy piano and piano preparations. Just read James
Tenney on the subject. Cage was so concerned with pitch that he tried to leave
it out in two pieces, proving it impossible:

0' 0" and 4' 33"

Johnny

best, Johnny

It was the attitude toward microtones
that mattered, once upon a time.

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Cage changed his mind about allot of things and the whole european
group finally took Partch serious. This did not happen in his life time.
While he expanded timbre with new instruments there is the very
definate use of pitch from top to bottom that i think we are trained t
otune out as being important.
HP had an ear and concept of pitch and pitch matrix that was phenomenal.
this is quite different than the the concept of pitch being variable
within a certain range. Something that became a necessity in late
romanic music in order to handle the realm of modulations taking place.
I think Gene's Smith follows and has concern for solving the problem
posed by this music.
There is the meeting between partch and boulez that resulted in the
exchanges of punches.(according to Johnston)
It was a meeing that lasted about as long as popper and wittenstein!
( i still get more out of popper than quine)

Obviously the meaning changed.
I respect your work johnny but to define all music as microtonal for
me personally doesn't do much for me. It is like saying all music is
tonal or melodic. I prefer to take a stance than new intervals require
new music.one cannot use wood like metal. etc.
La Monteyoung is an intering case where he changed the music first and
then foiund the right microtonality for it. This is probably what
cultures around the world have done in many instances.
But i will let johnny have the last word on this cause i think it is
interesting how different people end up at the same intersection even
though they are going different direction.
In general i think this happen quite a bit in all the arts, one can
find oneself at the same point, even sounding similar to someone else
but often one is moving tangentally to others and it leads to
different things. the notion of "influence" i think is a bit limited
in actually describing what is going on

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:
>
> Someday, I hope it catches up with everybody that "all music is
microtonal."
> Kalle is right to stress intervals over pitches. Tony is right
that it
> could all be culturally-based, and that one could use a 1200-tET
system of a
> diesis of 1 cent.
>
> However, science doesn't describe based on a culture. Neither does
math.
> In deference to these areas of interest, as opposed to the diverse
religions
> and non-religion found in people, there is no reason to segregate
tunings as
> once practiced in South Africa.
>
> Kraig, I don't think "Cage did not consider himself a microtonalist."
> Besides actually writing numerous microtonal pieces, increasing
towards the end of
> his life, he was interviewed in PITCH I:4 in which he was thrilled
to be
> considered a microtonalist.
>
> Kraig continued:
> "Stockhausen, Xenakis Boulez were to Partch the great enemy regardless
> if they used microtones are not." Apologies in advance to Jon, but
Partch
> was paranoid. He believed and published erroneously that Bach was
ET!
> Anybody with a paying job was a great enemy to Partch. In truth,
Cowell was more
> of an enemy to Partch. I doubt Boulez and Stockhausen were much of
a blip to
> Partch. And Xenakis was a truly nice guy, who happened to hate just
> intonation.
>
> This is my pitch: that microtality is the musical element of pitch
in all
> its variations. Other elements: timbre, rhythm, form, notation.
Music can not
> be robbed of its elements without falling on its ephemeral face.
Cage had
> pitch in his "aggregate" toy piano and piano preparations. Just
read James
> Tenney on the subject. Cage was so concerned with pitch that he
tried to leave
> it out in two pieces, proving it impossible:
>
> 0' 0" and 4' 33"
>
> Johnny
>
> best, Johnny
>
>
>
> It was the attitude toward microtones
> that mattered, once upon a time.
>
>
>
>
> **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
> (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
>

JR: Thank you, Kraig, for inviting a follow-up.

KG: Cage changed his mind about allot of things and the whole european
group finally took Partch serious. This did not happen in his life time.

JR: This is true.

KG: While he expanded timbre with new instruments there is the very
definate use of pitch from top to bottom that i think we are trained t
otune out as being important.

JR: I'm not totally clear on what you are saying here. But I am a big fan
of Partch's music.

KG: HP had an ear and concept of pitch and pitch matrix that was phenomenal.
this is quite different than the the concept of pitch being variable
within a certain range.

JR: I disagree. Why mythologilize him? He worked hard to hear and tune as
he went along, and with the aid of absolute pitch. Why else hammer brads
between the strings of his adapted viola? No violist would do that to an
instrument today.

KG: Something that became a necessity in late
romanic music in order to handle the realm of modulations taking place.
I think Gene's Smith follows and has concern for solving the problem
posed by this music.
There is the meeting between partch and boulez that resulted in the
exchanges of punches.(according to Johnston)
It was a meeing that lasted about as long as popper and wittenstein!
( i still get more out of popper than quine)

JR: You lost me with quine. Boulez protested against Stravinsky in the
streets of Paris. I have never felt the least interest to interact with him over
many years of possibilities. Partch could destroy hotel rooms and private
homes, based on my New York contacts. Temper of the human kind must also be
considered. It could have some connection to the inharmonicity of his
percussion. Hmmn?

KG: Obviously the meaning changed.
I respect your work johnny but to define all music as microtonal for
me personally doesn't do much for me. It is like saying all music is
tonal or melodic.

JR: Microtonality the pitch parameter of music. Not all music is tonal,
nor melodic. But there is a pitch parameter in all music, even percussion. As
you said, "the meaning changed."

KG: I prefer to take a stance than new intervals require
new music.one cannot use wood like metal. etc.

JR: You are right here. I totally agree. Only, I don't want to use any
one tuning as a reference, not ET nor just. Just could be overtone or cyclic
or with a common prime number, etc., for too many different takes.

KG: La Monteyoung is an intering case where he changed the music first and
then foiund the right microtonality for it. This is probably what
cultures around the world have done in many instances.
But i will let johnny have the last word on this cause i think it is
interesting how different people end up at the same intersection even
though they are going different direction.

JR: Microtonality is tripped of style. It transcends ethnicity, and time.
It is quantifiable by ear only in the present century. It is new for the
imagination. And descriptive terms needs to catch up.

KG: In general i think this happen quite a bit in all the arts, one can
find oneself at the same point, even sounding similar to someone else
but often one is moving tangentally to others and it leads to
different things. the notion of "influence" i think is a bit limited
in actually describing what is going on

JR: How a person constitutes a mental construct for tuning in their minds
largely influences how they will describe it. I long ago noticed how few
people have a perfect match with mine. Thanks for the listen.

best, Johnny

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banaphshu wrote:
> I respect your work johnny but to define all music as microtonal for
> me personally doesn't do much for me. It is like saying all music is
> tonal or melodic. I prefer to take a stance than new intervals require
> new music.one cannot use wood like metal. etc.
> La Monteyoung is an intering case where he changed the music first and
> then foiund the right microtonality for it. This is probably what
> cultures around the world have done in many instances.

I suspect that's how many of us came to have an interest in microtonality. Some of the stuff I was writing in the mid-80's was a deliberate attempt to rewrite the rules of tonal music. This naturally led me to start looking into different tuning systems.