glissandi

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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Bailey" <chris@...> wrote:
>
> > =============GLISSANDI========> =======
> > Variable pitch is not part of this list target (tunings, as fixed
> > tunings), but I am very interesting on the glissandi technique
> > that you used on the flute and I would like to know if the braking
> > points of the glissandi are the points where you have to change
> > position (and then you composed around those points)???
>
> > You can mail me this here if you do not think it is appropriate for
> > the tuning
> > list (but for an orchestration list):
>
>
> Wha? It's totally legit. Please post to all of us! :)

This is an interesting point....very few people ever discuss
*systemless*, free microtones, including glissandi!

-A.

True, but let's not set up a false dichotomy. A glissando is a gesture, and as such is just part of music. In most cases its use is orthogonal to the tuning scheme.

- Dave

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Bailey" <chris@...> wrote:
>>> =============GLISSANDI========> =======
>>> Variable pitch is not part of this list target (tunings, as fixed
>>> tunings), but I am very interesting on the glissandi technique
>>> that you used on the flute and I would like to know if the braking
>>> points of the glissandi are the points where you have to change
>>> position (and then you composed around those points)???
>>> You can mail me this here if you do not think it is appropriate for
>>> the tuning
>>> list (but for an orchestration list):
>>
>> Wha? It's totally legit. Please post to all of us! :)
> > > This is an interesting point....very few people ever discuss
> *systemless*, free microtones, including glissandi!
> > -A.

Pure glissandi does cover the a full infinite range of subdivisions, for
the interval considered.

Pseudo-sliding pitches consisting of chromatic passages with fixed
pitches
can also be consider glissandi, and in this case the smaller the
chromatic
interval the slower glissandi you will be able to perform making it
sound as
such.

I do not understand why flutes have keys in Western music. I thought
of the
wholes being large ovals and the keys having sliding mechanisms
activated when
you open the keys so you can slide the wholes forwards or backwards,
but I still
think you would get the braking points more noticed than with wholes
(none with
a good technique). The rails could allow you to place the wholes in
several positions
before the performance as you do with the Harp pedals.

Talking about Harps, both Julián Carrillo and Harry Partch composed
using
ultrachromatic passages with their own harps which can also be
considered
pseudo-sliding pitches. In some cases if you also look at the speed
at which
the notes are being played it is difficult to call it a rhythm, but
like we say on
Spanish guitar terminology, a rasgueado ... forgot the classical
terminology,
but the fact is that a rasgeado could also be broken into microrhythmor micro
super tiny beats if they are even.

Glissandi can be achieved with great precision by combining
microtonality and microrhythmia
enriching the melodic vocabulary. Microtonality and microrhythmia
instead, have
mostly been employed to create textures and complexity as a modern
trend.

It was nice to hear some folk microtones, simple and precise
harmonies, and loads
of glissandi in that flute piece which is what makes it unique.

Tony

On 2007/11/27, at 21:20, Dave Seidel wrote:

> True, but let's not set up a false dichotomy. A glissando is a
> gesture,
> and as such is just part of music. In most cases its use is orthogonal
> to the tuning scheme.
>
> - Dave
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Bailey" <chris@...>
> wrote:
> >>> =============GLISSANDI========> =======
> >>> Variable pitch is not part of this list target (tunings, as fixed
> >>> tunings), but I am very interesting on the glissandi technique
> >>> that you used on the flute and I would like to know if the braking
> >>> points of the glissandi are the points where you have to change
> >>> position (and then you composed around those points)???
> >>> You can mail me this here if you do not think it is appropriate
> for
> >>> the tuning
> >>> list (but for an orchestration list):
> >>
> >> Wha? It's totally legit. Please post to all of us! :)
> >
> >
> > This is an interesting point....very few people ever discuss
> > *systemless*, free microtones, including glissandi!
> >
> > -A.
>
>
>

FWIW, Martin Braun has suggested (on the SpecMus list) that
glissandi are not mere ornaments, but in fact are fundamentally
among the more interesting things to the human hearing
aparatus.

This would appear to be consistent with the fact that
subtlies in the (unwritten) glissandi/portamenti between
notes make up a significant part of what differentiates
instruments from one another.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Dave Seidel <dave@...> wrote:
>
> True, but let's not set up a false dichotomy. A glissando is
> a gesture, and as such is just part of music. In most cases
> its use is orthogonal to the tuning scheme.
>
> - Dave

> True, but let's not set up a false dichotomy. A glissando is a
gesture,
> and as such is just part of music. In most cases its use is orthogonal
> to the tuning scheme.

This is an interesting topic to me because the digital ANS synth I'm
building sequences glissandi with ease and precision thus making for
some exciting relationships between rhythm and tuning.

For example:
If a note starts at 6000 cents and slides to 7200 over a long enough
period of time for a 2nd note, with an identical slide, to be started
while the 1st is still sounding, then you get a harmonic relationship
depending on when you start the 2nd note. Take that idea to the n-th
degree and you get some really interesting fugue-type capabilities
that are absolutely NOT orthogonal to tuning.

Granted, I'm going beyond the "performed" pieces on "real" instruments
that Dave is implying, but I thought the statement should be qualified
as it is not true in all cases... or maybe we have different
definitions of glissandi?

> > This is an interesting point....very few people ever discuss
> > *systemless*, free microtones, including glissandi!
> >
> > -A.

...and with the right tool these so called "systemless" and "free"
microtones are incredibly fun to play with and are IMO part of the
writing that Schoenberg saw on the wall in regards to the state of
12et theory in his time. But then again I'm a tuning newb so I may be
way off. It wouldn't be the first time :)

Regards,
Andy F.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Dave Seidel <dave@...> wrote:
>
> True, but let's not set up a false dichotomy. A glissando is a
gesture,
> and as such is just part of music. In most cases its use is orthogonal
> to the tuning scheme.
>
> - Dave
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Bailey" <chris@> wrote:
> >>> =============GLISSANDI========> =======
> >>> Variable pitch is not part of this list target (tunings, as fixed
> >>> tunings), but I am very interesting on the glissandi technique
> >>> that you used on the flute and I would like to know if the braking
> >>> points of the glissandi are the points where you have to change
> >>> position (and then you composed around those points)???
> >>> You can mail me this here if you do not think it is appropriate for
> >>> the tuning
> >>> list (but for an orchestration list):
> >>
> >> Wha? It's totally legit. Please post to all of us! :)
> >
> >
> > This is an interesting point....very few people ever discuss
> > *systemless*, free microtones, including glissandi!
> >
> > -A.
>

I would agree with Martin Braun in this case:

"FWIW, Martin Braun has suggested (on the SpecMus list) that
glissandi are not mere ornaments, but in fact are fundamentally
among the more interesting things to the human hearing
aparatus."

Playing glissandi can be core to a composition. It can be more than 50
percent of a composition, or an entire composition. Surely, it is a case by case
situation.

Examples of extreme use of glissandi as the most prominent microtonal
information in musical composition:
Xenakis Theraps for double bass
Berio Sequenza for bassoon
Reinhard Cosmic Rays for string quartet (PITCH 200209)
Grainger Free Music quartet for Theremin

Notably, Tibetan music makes extreme use of glissandi for microtonal
information in its composition. Surely, glissandi is not in the same category as
mere ornaments. The best case for this might be the opening clarinet solo to
Rhapsody in Blue, elevating the glissando to an opening introduction of
memorable clout.

Johnny Reinhard

**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

Be careful you don't start an argument between 'glissandi' and
'portamento'. :p Seriously though, that's why I like slide guitar.

Joe

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:
>
>
> I would agree with Martin Braun in this case:
>
> "FWIW, Martin Braun has suggested (on the SpecMus list) that
> glissandi are not mere ornaments, but in fact are fundamentally
> among the more interesting things to the human hearing
> aparatus."
>
>
> Playing glissandi can be core to a composition. It can be more
than 50
> percent of a composition, or an entire composition. Surely, it is
a case by case
> situation.
>
> Examples of extreme use of glissandi as the most prominent microtonal
> information in musical composition:
> Xenakis Theraps for double bass
> Berio Sequenza for bassoon
> Reinhard Cosmic Rays for string quartet (PITCH 200209)
> Grainger Free Music quartet for Theremin
>
> Notably, Tibetan music makes extreme use of glissandi for microtonal
> information in its composition. Surely, glissandi is not in the
same category as
> mere ornaments. The best case for this might be the opening
clarinet solo to
> Rhapsody in Blue, elevating the glissando to an opening
introduction of
> memorable clout.
>
> Johnny Reinhard
>
>
>
>
> **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's
hottest
> products.
>
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
>

Martin focused on the very subtle and difficult question of our
neurological analysis of a waveform during a glissando. If our
brains are doing something like Fourier analysis, then it's far from
clear that a sound which, when stationary, has a simple wave form,
will be or even can be resolved as a simple wave form during a
glissando. If I understand Martin's idea correctly, it appears
possible that during a glissando we will not hear the wave as a
simple form at all, but as one with stretching or narrowing spectrum,
resolving into the simple wave form only when at rest. The added
processing load that a glissando represents for the brain appears
significant and is probably an important factor in its musical
application. If the variations in processing load in a consonance <->
dissonance spectrum correspond to their musical usage, then perhaps a
similar glissando spectrum exists, and makes a unique connection
between pitch and timbre.

Daniel Wolf

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> FWIW, Martin Braun has suggested (on the SpecMus list) that
> glissandi are not mere ornaments, but in fact are fundamentally
> among the more interesting things to the human hearing
> aparatus.
>

hope that you share some of these is sound when you get it all
together. there might be a way to do a shepard tone like effect also
given enough time and envelops of each voice--- In
tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Fillebrown" <AMiltonF@...> wrote:
>
> > True, but let's not set up a false dichotomy. A glissando is a
> gesture,
> > and as such is just part of music. In most cases its use is
orthogonal
> > to the tuning scheme.
>
>
> This is an interesting topic to me because the digital ANS synth I'm
> building sequences glissandi with ease and precision thus making for
> some exciting relationships between rhythm and tuning.
>
> For example:
> If a note starts at 6000 cents and slides to 7200 over a long enough
> period of time for a 2nd note, with an identical slide, to be started
> while the 1st is still sounding, then you get a harmonic relationship
> depending on when you start the 2nd note. Take that idea to the n-th
> degree and you get some really interesting fugue-type capabilities
> that are absolutely NOT orthogonal to tuning.
>
> Granted, I'm going beyond the "performed" pieces on "real" instruments
> that Dave is implying, but I thought the statement should be qualified
> as it is not true in all cases... or maybe we have different
> definitions of glissandi?
>
>
> > > This is an interesting point....very few people ever discuss
> > > *systemless*, free microtones, including glissandi!
> > >
> > > -A.
>
>
> ...and with the right tool these so called "systemless" and "free"
> microtones are incredibly fun to play with and are IMO part of the
> writing that Schoenberg saw on the wall in regards to the state of
> 12et theory in his time. But then again I'm a tuning newb so I may be
> way off. It wouldn't be the first time :)
>
> Regards,
> Andy F.
>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Dave Seidel <dave@> wrote:
> >
> > True, but let's not set up a false dichotomy. A glissando is a
> gesture,
> > and as such is just part of music. In most cases its use is
orthogonal
> > to the tuning scheme.
> >
> > - Dave
> >
> > Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Bailey" <chris@> wrote:
> > >>> =============GLISSANDI========> =======
> > >>> Variable pitch is not part of this list target (tunings, as fixed
> > >>> tunings), but I am very interesting on the glissandi technique
> > >>> that you used on the flute and I would like to know if the braking
> > >>> points of the glissandi are the points where you have to change
> > >>> position (and then you composed around those points)???
> > >>> You can mail me this here if you do not think it is
appropriate for
> > >>> the tuning
> > >>> list (but for an orchestration list):
> > >>
> > >> Wha? It's totally legit. Please post to all of us! :)
> > >
> > >
> > > This is an interesting point....very few people ever discuss
> > > *systemless*, free microtones, including glissandi!
> > >
> > > -A.
> >
>