Reality check: Japanese Intonation

The recent posts are very interesting, but one thing is seriously
lacking: sources! Where are you guys getting this? Is it just your own
personal musing, likes, solutions, etc, or is it based on some
musicological/organological research? Personally, I am much more
interested in what musicians actually do rather than having fun with
numbers, so how about some reality therapy?

Thanks in advance.

Ciao,

P

Hello Paul
I am a musician, and I do.
I am also an instrument maker. That is specifically my interest in
exploring pitch more precisely.
So, I am the source. As for what pitch people use here in Japan, it's
basically like I said, there are the notes which are wanted at around
75cents flat, and there are all the other notes which are being used
generally at 12toneET values. That is the basis.
Then in actuality, it varies from instrument to instrument. With
strings, many players tune their strings poorly, more so than I would
expect in any other country. So a great many people simply play out of
tune. The professionals though, generally play in tune more or less as
I have described. Then there are flutes. On them you have the open
holes, and shaded holes. The 75cent flat notes are produced by shading
holes, and most people play them sharp actually, even as much as
100cents sharp of the western equivalent (making them 125cents sharp!)
Those with good pitch control but ears habituated to western music
sometimes will play at the western pitch, thus 25cents too sharp. By
the way, I am saying 25cents as a rather rough figure. That would be
very acceptable. Some people play some music with these pitches
50cents low instead of 25cents low. Most people consider that too low,
but I like it.
As for the other notes, some are made using finger shading (in which
case they vary depending on the ability of the player), and some of
them are open holed. For the open holed notes, a very good player can
control the pitch to what he desires, which is usually the same as
12toneET as I said. For everyone else, the pitch is just the product
of their way of blowing combined with the instrument. Many instruments
have pitches up to 40cents off, randomly. 10 or 15 cents would be
quite common. The older instruments are more out of tune than the
newer ones.
So, it is a modern trend for the instrument makers to attempt to make
them precisely in tune. Since this is a very difficult job, makers
vary in success at this. Anyway, these makers have mostly never heard
that any tuning exists other than 12toneET. In fact they may never
have heard of 12toneET, just like most people in the west also. But
use it, just like people in the west. Since I am graced with the
knowledge that 12toneET is out of tune, I am now trying to make my
instruments in tune.

So, in summary, we have all be playing more or less out of tune, for
hundreds of years, and I am trying to find a way to help us play in
tune. In practice it doesn't matter so much even. But since people
nowadays are getting so fussy about pitch (the people who buy our
instruments), then rather than let that shape everything into
12toneET, I though we should better find a more fitting solution.

In this search, yes I am asking for people's personal musings,
solutions, likes. If they make sense to me, and sound good, I might
accept them. So I am very grateful to hear your suggestions and
reasons. This is all about instrument making.

Thank you
Justin

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Poletti" <paul@...> wrote:
>
> The recent posts are very interesting, but one thing is seriously
> lacking: sources! Where are you guys getting this? Is it just your own
> personal musing, likes, solutions, etc, or is it based on some
> musicological/organological research? Personally, I am much more
> interested in what musicians actually do rather than having fun with
> numbers, so how about some reality therapy?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Ciao,
>
> P
>

A reasonable request.
at the end of the following is the ratios put forth by Tanabe who
wrote two books on japanese music. It pretty much coincides with what
miller has ben saying also.
http://anaphoria.com/mos.PDF
I don't have the paper handy that points out that ofter koto players
will tune their semitones a bit smaller.
that each instrument tunes differently, even within the gagaku
orchestra (which i actually saw a bit today by coincidence) is a point
that is well taken.
i have heard whole tones as large as the 8/7 within the classic hit
"etenraku" more often than not.

Justin mentioned what i consider the other 20th century microtonal
masterpiece along with "delusion"-
In an autumn garden by takemitsu.
the full recording but hearing it live, live Partch's music reveals
its real brillence

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Poletti" <paul@...> wrote:
>
> The recent posts are very interesting, but one thing is seriously
> lacking: sources! Where are you guys getting this? Is it just your own
> personal musing, likes, solutions, etc, or is it based on some
> musicological/organological research? Personally, I am much more
> interested in what musicians actually do rather than having fun with
> numbers, so how about some reality therapy?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Ciao,
>
> P
>

Paul Poletti wrote:
> The recent posts are very interesting, but one thing is seriously
> lacking: sources! Where are you guys getting this? Is it just your own
> personal musing, likes, solutions, etc, or is it based on some
> musicological/organological research? Personally, I am much more
> interested in what musicians actually do rather than having fun with
> numbers, so how about some reality therapy?

Go back to the start of the thread. There was never any request for historical sources or even (until later in the thread) any indication that the scale was Japanese. If you have relevant sources, you're free to contribute any information you might have.

So much for trying to be helpful. I think I'll go back to lurking. I have better things to do with my time.

I totally agree with you Herman.

Once I could translate what he was asking for the solution that I gave was what real microtonal musos actually use-)

Charles Lucy lucy@lucytune.com

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On 15 Nov 2007, at 04:14, Herman Miller wrote:

> Paul Poletti wrote:
> > The recent posts are very interesting, but one thing is seriously
> > lacking: sources! Where are you guys getting this? Is it just > your own
> > personal musing, likes, solutions, etc, or is it based on some
> > musicological/organological research? Personally, I am much more
> > interested in what musicians actually do rather than having fun with
> > numbers, so how about some reality therapy?
>
> Go back to the start of the thread. There was never any request for
> historical sources or even (until later in the thread) any indication
> that the scale was Japanese. If you have relevant sources, you're free
> to contribute any information you might have.
>
> So much for trying to be helpful. I think I'll go back to lurking. I
> have better things to do with my time.
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...> wrote:

> So much for trying to be helpful. I think I'll go back to lurking. I
> have better things to do with my time.
>

Hi Herman
I hope you know that I really appreciate all the time you have spent
on this thread. I'm very grateful. I'm sorry I don't always respond to
your posts quickly, and there are several I still need to digest yet.
I'm pretty busy with some performances coming up, and instruments to
make too. I'll try to get through it soon!
Thank you very much
Justin

justinasia wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...> wrote:
> > >> So much for trying to be helpful. I think I'll go back to lurking. I >> have better things to do with my time.
>>
> > Hi Herman
> I hope you know that I really appreciate all the time you have spent
> on this thread. I'm very grateful. I'm sorry I don't always respond to
> your posts quickly, and there are several I still need to digest yet.
> I'm pretty busy with some performances coming up, and instruments to
> make too. I'll try to get through it soon!
> Thank you very much
> Justin

You're welcome. I guess I should have clarified what I said -- I have better things to do than argue about the merits of "having fun with numbers". It's just one of the recurring arguments that pops up on this list. But on second thought, I should probably just ignore this sort of criticism when it comes up.