Database of scales - scalecoding - meantone-type tunings

Some tunaniks may feel that discussing scales in this forum is off-topic.

(If so, let us know)

I am considering scales from a microtonal perspective, (and only afterwards looking at how they can be approximated in 12edo),
I therefore feel that this study should be eligible for discussion in the tuning list.

I am attempting to produce the definitive list and database of scales (both in current and historical use) and to include all possible permutations and combinations which could generate useful musical scales.

I appreciate that this is a massive task, and that although I can numerically describe each scale uniquely, and sort by many orders, there are sure to be numerous different names which are or have been used for each of the popular scales from diverse cultures.

I have put a .xls file and a FileMaker "solution" (.fp7) into a folder at this url:

http://www.lucytune.com/scales/

Please download and enjoy;-)

I am hoping that interested parties will be able to add scales and names to it so that we can eventually have the most complete collection of scales and names that had ever been compiled.

I also see this as a way to influence "12edo die-hards" into delving into microtuning and expanding their scalar vocabulary;-)

The initial file is only for 436 unique scales and covers most possibilities for chains of up to six steps of fifths.

I plan to add more as I find or calculate them.

If anyone has a way to host a live FileMaker site, which could be used for this it might be a useful way in which scale explorers could add their ideas and findings.

Charles Lucy lucy@lucytune.com

----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----

For information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com

LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Skype user = lucytune

http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning

There is a plethora of possibilities in the Scala scales archive..

Good luck,

Robin

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
>
> Some tunaniks may feel that discussing scales in this forum is off-
> topic.
>
> (If so, let us know)
>
> I am considering scales from a microtonal perspective, (and only
> afterwards looking at how they can be approximated in 12edo),
> I therefore feel that this study should be eligible for discussion
in
> the tuning list.
>
> I am attempting to produce the definitive list and database of
scales
> (both in current and historical use) and to include all possible
> permutations and combinations which could generate useful musical
> scales.
>
> I appreciate that this is a massive task, and that although I can
> numerically describe each scale uniquely, and sort by many orders,
> there are sure to be numerous different names which are or have
been
> used for each of the popular scales from diverse cultures.
>
> I have put a .xls file and a FileMaker "solution" (.fp7) into a
> folder at this url:
>
> http://www.lucytune.com/scales/
>
> Please download and enjoy;-)
>
>
> I am hoping that interested parties will be able to add scales and
> names to it so that we can eventually have the most complete
> collection of scales and names that had ever been compiled.
>
> I also see this as a way to influence "12edo die-hards" into
delving
> into microtuning and expanding their scalar vocabulary;-)
>
> The initial file is only for 436 unique scales and covers most
> possibilities for chains of up to six steps of fifths.
>
> I plan to add more as I find or calculate them.
>
> If anyone has a way to host a live FileMaker site, which could be
> used for this it might be a useful way in which scale explorers
could
> add their ideas and findings.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Charles Lucy lucy@...
>
> ----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----
>
> For information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com
>
> LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
> Skype user = lucytune
>
> http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning
>

Thank you Robin;

I am very familiar with Manuel De Coup's admirable Scala work, and respect his achievement over the many years that he has been working on it.

[BTW Manuel, when are you going to get a practical GUI for Scala to run on OSX? ;-)]

I believe Robin that you have failed to understand the underlying logic and purpose of what I am attempting to achieve.

I am building a database of a system of scales by notenames i.e. C D E F G A B C etc. (not particular tunings).

Manuel has already developed Scala in the tunings direction.

The scales database, I envisage is at a much more fundamental level than Scala.

The scales are to arranged by coding in a spiral of fifths: FCGDAEB flats > naturals > sharps

so that the data is applicable for all meantone-type tunings (including 12 edo).

The purpose is for classification, sorting, harmonic analysis, and composition.

Someone suggested that it might also be useful to add musical examples as notation or mp3 files, midi, plus rhythm patterns which have been used with each of the scales.

This would also demonstrate how previous composers and cultures had used particular scales, and to act as a starting point for composition experiments.

The database is intended to be used by all types of composers and musicians and not limited to microtunaniks.

Charles Lucy lucy@lucytune.com

----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----

For information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com

LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Skype user = lucytune

http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning

On 22 Oct 2007, at 08:20, Robin Perry wrote:

> There is a plethora of possibilities in the Scala scales archive..
>
> Good luck,
>
> Robin
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
> >
> > Some tunaniks may feel that discussing scales in this forum is off-
> > topic.
> >
> > (If so, let us know)
> >
> > I am considering scales from a microtonal perspective, (and only
> > afterwards looking at how they can be approximated in 12edo),
> > I therefore feel that this study should be eligible for discussion
> in
> > the tuning list.
> >
> > I am attempting to produce the definitive list and database of
> scales
> > (both in current and historical use) and to include all possible
> > permutations and combinations which could generate useful musical
> > scales.
> >
> > I appreciate that this is a massive task, and that although I can
> > numerically describe each scale uniquely, and sort by many orders,
> > there are sure to be numerous different names which are or have
> been
> > used for each of the popular scales from diverse cultures.
> >
> > I have put a .xls file and a FileMaker "solution" (.fp7) into a
> > folder at this url:
> >
> > http://www.lucytune.com/scales/
> >
> > Please download and enjoy;-)
> >
> >
> > I am hoping that interested parties will be able to add scales and
> > names to it so that we can eventually have the most complete
> > collection of scales and names that had ever been compiled.
> >
> > I also see this as a way to influence "12edo die-hards" into
> delving
> > into microtuning and expanding their scalar vocabulary;-)
> >
> > The initial file is only for 436 unique scales and covers most
> > possibilities for chains of up to six steps of fifths.
> >
> > I plan to add more as I find or calculate them.
> >
> > If anyone has a way to host a live FileMaker site, which could be
> > used for this it might be a useful way in which scale explorers
> could
> > add their ideas and findings.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Charles Lucy lucy@...
> >
> > ----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----
> >
> > For information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com
> >
> > LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
> > http://www.lullabies.co.uk
> >
> > Skype user = lucytune
> >
> > http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning
> >
>
>
>

Charles,

It may well be possible to use Scala to distill the actual "scales" for you from its archive of scales and "tunings".

We must recognise that the boundary between scales and tunings is somewhat fuzzy. But you could adopt some ad hoc distinguishing features, e.g. a .scl file with more than say 10 pitches is probably not a "scale" in your terms. You could then have Scala map each such scale to the nearest pitches of some meantone ET with sufficient melodic resolution, say 31-ET then break the cycle at the point that minimises the width of the scale on an open chain of fifths.

Or map to the nearest on an open chain of 31 notes of golden meantone.

-- Dave Keenan

At 08:12 PM 22/10/2007, you wrote:
>Thank you Robin;
>
>I am very familiar with Manuel De Coup's admirable Scala work, and respect his achievement over the many years that he has been working on it.
>
>[BTW Manuel, when are you going to get a practical GUI for Scala to run on OSX? ;-)]
>
>I believe Robin that you have failed to understand the underlying logic and purpose of what I am attempting to achieve.
>
>I am building a database of a system of scales by notenames i.e. C D E F G A B C etc. (not particular tunings).
>
>Manuel has already developed Scala in the tunings direction.
>
>The scales database, I envisage is at a much more fundamental level than Scala.
>
>The scales are to arranged by coding in a spiral of fifths: FCGDAEB flats > naturals > sharps
>
>so that the data is applicable for all meantone-type tunings (including 12 edo).
>
>The purpose is for classification, sorting, harmonic analysis, and composition.
>
>Someone suggested that it might also be useful to add musical examples as notation or mp3 files, midi, plus rhythm patterns which have been used with each of the scales.
>
>This would also demonstrate how previous composers and cultures had used particular scales, and to act as a starting point for composition experiments.
>
>The database is intended to be used by all types of composers and musicians and not limited to microtunaniks.
>
>Charles Lucy <mailto:lucy@lucytune.com>lucy@lucytune.com
>
>----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----
>
>For information on LucyTuning go to: <http://www.lucytune.com>http://www.lucytune.com
>
>LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
><http://www.lullabies.co.uk>http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
>Skype user = lucytune
>
><http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning>http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning
>
>
>On 22 Oct 2007, at 08:20, Robin Perry wrote:
>
>>There is a plethora of possibilities in the Scala scales archive..
>>
>>Good luck,
>>
>>Robin
>>
>>--- In <mailto:tuning%40yahoogroups.com>tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Some tunaniks may feel that discussing scales in this forum is off-
>>> topic.
>>>
>>> (If so, let us know)
>>>
>>> I am considering scales from a microtonal perspective, (and only
>>> afterwards looking at how they can be approximated in 12edo),
>>> I therefore feel that this study should be eligible for discussion
>>in
>>> the tuning list.
>>>
>>> I am attempting to produce the definitive list and database of
>>scales
>>> (both in current and historical use) and to include all possible
>>> permutations and combinations which could generate useful musical
>>> scales.
>>>
>>> I appreciate that this is a massive task, and that although I can
>>> numerically describe each scale uniquely, and sort by many orders,
>>> there are sure to be numerous different names which are or have
>>been
>>> used for each of the popular scales from diverse cultures.
>>>
>>> I have put a .xls file and a FileMaker "solution" (.fp7) into a
>>> folder at this url:
>>>
>>> <http://www.lucytune.com/scales/>http://www.lucytune<http://www.lucytune.com/scales/>.com/scales/
>>>
>>> Please download and enjoy;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> I am hoping that interested parties will be able to add scales and
>>> names to it so that we can eventually have the most complete
>>> collection of scales and names that had ever been compiled.
>>>
>>> I also see this as a way to influence "12edo die-hards" into
>>delving
>>> into microtuning and expanding their scalar vocabulary;-)
>>>
>>> The initial file is only for 436 unique scales and covers most
>>> possibilities for chains of up to six steps of fifths.
>>>
>>> I plan to add more as I find or calculate them.
>>>
>>> If anyone has a way to host a live FileMaker site, which could be
>>> used for this it might be a useful way in which scale explorers
>>could
>>> add their ideas and findings.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Charles Lucy lucy@...
>>>
>>> ----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----
>>>
>>> For information on LucyTuning go to: <http://www.lucytune.com>http://www.lucytune<http://www.lucytune.com>.com
>>>
>>> LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
>>> <http://www.lullabies.co.uk>http://www.lullabie<http://www.lullabies.co.uk>s.co.uk
>>>
>>> Skype user = lucytune
>>>
>>> <http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning>http://www.myspace.<http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning>com/lucytuning
>>>
>
>

Thanks Dave;

Eventually that should be quite easily possible.

In fact it would be perfect for 31 golden meantone or 31edo for that matter. i.e. any "meantone-type" tuning.

One of the shortcomings that I have found with Scala as a composition tool, is that it often presents scales only as a list of intervals, which can be transposed by shifting midi by semitone intervals.

Hence you will notice that the lucytunings in scala are also listed as x flats y sharps, so that users can more easily navigate musically to play with other instruments.

It's all concerned with how your "average" musician thinks and notates; i.e. by notenames and/or positions on a musical staff.

It's a subtle change of perspective from scala, and should make microtuning less "foreign" to musician newbies.

I'm glad you have understood what I am attempting to achieve, I was beginning to wonder (from Robin's posting) whether I was trying to reinvent the "wheel/Scala";-)

Charles Lucy lucy@lucytune.com

----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----

For information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com

LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Skype user = lucytune

http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning

On 22 Oct 2007, at 11:41, Dave Keenan wrote:

> Charles,
>
> It may well be possible to use Scala to distill the actual "scales" > for you from its archive of scales and "tunings".
>
> We must recognise that the boundary between scales and tunings is > somewhat fuzzy. But you could adopt some ad hoc distinguishing > features, e.g. a .scl file with more than say 10 pitches is > probably not a "scale" in your terms. You could then have Scala map > each such scale to the nearest pitches of some meantone ET with > sufficient melodic resolution, say 31-ET then break the cycle at > the point that minimises the width of the scale on an open chain of > fifths.
>
> Or map to the nearest on an open chain of 31 notes of golden meantone.
>
> -- Dave Keenan
>
> At 08:12 PM 22/10/2007, you wrote:
> >Thank you Robin;
> >
> >I am very familiar with Manuel De Coup's admirable Scala work, and > respect his achievement over the many years that he has been > working on it.
> >
> >[BTW Manuel, when are you going to get a practical GUI for Scala > to run on OSX? ;-)]
> >
> >I believe Robin that you have failed to understand the underlying > logic and purpose of what I am attempting to achieve.
> >
> >I am building a database of a system of scales by notenames i.e. C > D E F G A B C etc. (not particular tunings).
> >
> >Manuel has already developed Scala in the tunings direction.
> >
> >The scales database, I envisage is at a much more fundamental > level than Scala.
> >
> >The scales are to arranged by coding in a spiral of fifths: > FCGDAEB flats > naturals > sharps
> >
> >so that the data is applicable for all meantone-type tunings > (including 12 edo).
> >
> >The purpose is for classification, sorting, harmonic analysis, and > composition.
> >
> >Someone suggested that it might also be useful to add musical > examples as notation or mp3 files, midi, plus rhythm patterns which > have been used with each of the scales.
> >
> >This would also demonstrate how previous composers and cultures > had used particular scales, and to act as a starting point for > composition experiments.
> >
> >The database is intended to be used by all types of composers and > musicians and not limited to microtunaniks.
> >
> >Charles Lucy <mailto:lucy@lucytune.com>lucy@lucytune.com
> >
> >----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----
> >
> >For information on LucyTuning go to: <http://> www.lucytune.com>http://www.lucytune.com
> >
> >LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
> ><http://www.lullabies.co.uk>http://www.lullabies.co.uk
> >
> >Skype user = lucytune
> >
> ><http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning>http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning
> >
> >
> >On 22 Oct 2007, at 08:20, Robin Perry wrote:
> >
> >>There is a plethora of possibilities in the Scala scales archive..
> >>
> >>Good luck,
> >>
> >>Robin
> >>
> >>--- In <mailto:tuning%40yahoogroups.com>tuning@yahoogroups.com, > Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Some tunaniks may feel that discussing scales in this forum is > off-
> >>> topic.
> >>>
> >>> (If so, let us know)
> >>>
> >>> I am considering scales from a microtonal perspective, (and only
> >>> afterwards looking at how they can be approximated in 12edo),
> >>> I therefore feel that this study should be eligible for discussion
> >>in
> >>> the tuning list.
> >>>
> >>> I am attempting to produce the definitive list and database of
> >>scales
> >>> (both in current and historical use) and to include all possible
> >>> permutations and combinations which could generate useful musical
> >>> scales.
> >>>
> >>> I appreciate that this is a massive task, and that although I can
> >>> numerically describe each scale uniquely, and sort by many orders,
> >>> there are sure to be numerous different names which are or have
> >>been
> >>> used for each of the popular scales from diverse cultures.
> >>>
> >>> I have put a .xls file and a FileMaker "solution" (.fp7) into a
> >>> folder at this url:
> >>>
> >>> <http://www.lucytune.com/scales/>http://www.lucytune<http://> www.lucytune.com/scales/>.com/scales/
> >>>
> >>> Please download and enjoy;-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I am hoping that interested parties will be able to add scales and
> >>> names to it so that we can eventually have the most complete
> >>> collection of scales and names that had ever been compiled.
> >>>
> >>> I also see this as a way to influence "12edo die-hards" into
> >>delving
> >>> into microtuning and expanding their scalar vocabulary;-)
> >>>
> >>> The initial file is only for 436 unique scales and covers most
> >>> possibilities for chains of up to six steps of fifths.
> >>>
> >>> I plan to add more as I find or calculate them.
> >>>
> >>> If anyone has a way to host a live FileMaker site, which could be
> >>> used for this it might be a useful way in which scale explorers
> >>could
> >>> add their ideas and findings.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Charles Lucy lucy@...
> >>>
> >>> ----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----
> >>>
> >>> For information on LucyTuning go to: <http://> www.lucytune.com>http://www.lucytune<http://www.lucytune.com>.com
> >>>
> >>> LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
> >>> <http://www.lullabies.co.uk>http://www.lullabie<http://> www.lullabies.co.uk>s.co.uk
> >>>
> >>> Skype user = lucytune
> >>>
> >>> <http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning>http://www.myspace.<http://> www.myspace.com/lucytuning>com/lucytuning
> >>>
> >
> >
>
>
>